Stofel you retracted your comment to which I responded.
No not at all. Responding to a retracted question above.
The holocaust was taboo in Israel for years post 1948, never spoken about.
And just incase it doesn't make the uk press:
@i24news_EN: #BREAKING: Sirens warning of incoming rockets sound in northern #Israel near border with #Lebanon
Why would you expect sirens going off to "make the uk press" ?
Is Israel finding it hard to cope with all that terrible noise ?
You should be able to bomb the crap out of Gaza and kill countless Palestinians without having the discomfort of putting up with that awful noise, eh ?
Good article on BBC news just now. Of course, the zionists will laim the BBC is biased, but the pictures tell their own story, that of one side exercising overwhelming power over another.
Stofel you retracted your comment to which I responded.
That coment, which was in response to Ernie Lynch's comment about his hatred of Israel, was 'where do Israeli people have the right to live?'. I have no idea why you're invoking the Holocaust; thats a very low and disrespectful move. Shame on you. All people have the right to live somewhere, and 'Israelis' aren't just Jews. Which you of course know. But maybe it suits your zionist agenda to 'play the Holocaust card' as somene else put it, to defelct criticis, and be a justification for zionim. Again; shameon you.
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Excuse me but I am most definitely anti-Israel. I would like to see a one state solution with a democratic Palestine. Racism is no solution.
The other crap posted in this thread I will deal with tomorrow, but this needs addressing.
You're telling me that you want to see civilians lives being saved, yet you're advocating a one state solution? Are you ****ing nuts? Do you have any idea of the kind of insanity that would prevail if that ever happened? By the time wounds have healed to the point of making that even remotely possible, climate change will have rendered the entire place completely uninhabitable. Saying you're not anti-israel and then advocating a one state solution is similar to the "I'm not racist but..." line.
Playing the holocaust card. Classy.Two wrongs don't make a right.
Jews psychologically and for for completely valid reasons I might add, will never trust the rest of the world. Any peace process needs to recognise that.
Saying you're not anti-israel and then advocating a one state solution is similar to the "I'm not racist but..." line
this is what you quoted him saying
I am most definitely anti-Israel.
😕
PS Ernie is many things but he is NOT a racist.
Saying you're not anti-israel and then advocating a one state solution is similar to the "I'm not racist but..." line.
Why don't you read what you copied and pasted ? I did say I was anti-Isreali.
I am totally against a Zionist state. There's nothing "nuts" about having a non-racist solution to Palestine. And the one state solution has widespread support. Obviously the two state solution is a complete non-starter.
Of course you prefer your own version of the one state solution, ie, a state for the Zionists but no state at all for the Palestinians.
The two state solution is a non starter because successive Palestinian leaderships have repeatedly rejected it. They rejected it in 1948, because they wanted the bits that were allocated to Israel, and they have been rejecting it ever since.
There has never been a Palestinian state in that part of the world. There are indigenous Palestinian people, that having been misled into holding out for their own state without the Jews, in the belief that the Arab armies will eventually prevail; That is precisely what Hamas are staying today.
There are 1.5 million Arabs (former stateless Palestinians) living in Israel who would never consider living under Hamas rule.
The only solution is a two state solution. Hamas need to accept it, rather than rejecting it, and continuing with their war of attrition at the expense of civilian lives.
The two state solution is a non starter because it is completely unacceptable that land should taken from the people living in Palestine and given to foreigners with no connection to the area on the basis of an extremely dubious alleged promise God made 3,000 years ago.
The two state solution is a non starter because persecuting the Palestinian people so that a special select few of say British people, for example, who of course have their own homeland, such as EZrider, can help themselves to the Palestinian land causes an injustice that can't be simply brushed under the carpet.
The two state solution is a non starter because any "solution" based on a totally racist concept is never going to work.
"Separate development" under Apartheid worked in the short term but not in the long term, there is no evidence that it will be more successful in Palestine.
Ernie, I look forward to your campaign for the return of Texas to Mexico, the rest of the USA to the Indians, Australia to the Aborigines, and the widespread repatriation of the Spanish from the entire continent of South America and return of the Aztec gold.
In conflicts such as this, surely there needs to be a (date)line in the sand from which both sides can then move forward and begin to find ground on which they can agree. (Genuine Q to the debatees, I've found it an interesting thread to read)...is there a line on which both sides can agree in this conflict? If not, and a third party had to set it, where should it be?
Many religious Jews dont believe that there should be a Jewish homeland before the Messiah arrives which is partly why you have pictures per the one above.
Stoffel. Your retracted comment was along the lines of where should the Jews live.
Uganda and Madagascar have been suggested in the past. Any others STW want to put forward?
Ernie. No more concerned about the rockets fired from Lebanon last night.
No casualties as far as I know but sadly a 12 yr old Israeli Arab was killed a couple of weeks ago due to shelling from Syria.
The score so far:
IDF- 170
Hamas - nil
Not sure how exactly many of the 170 were women and children, or if any more of them were in wheelchairs or care homes. Sorry. Will update that information as I get it
Binners, the score is wrong, theres at least one three year old palestinian girl that was killed by a Hamas rocket that fell short
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/world/young-girl-killed-by-rocket-in-gaza-1.439800
UN reporting 70% of the dead in Gaza were non-combatants.
Before someone screams that they are targeting innocents and thus are as bad as Nazis, that ratio is the same as ours in Afghanistan.
The two state solution is a non starter because it is completely unacceptable that land should taken from the people living in Palestine and given to foreigners with no connection to the area on the basis of an extremely dubious alleged promise God made 3,000 years ago.The two state solution is a non starter because persecuting the Palestinian people so that a special select few of say British people, for example, who of course have their own homeland, such as EZrider, can help themselves to the Palestinian land causes an injustice that can't be simply brushed under the carpet.
Such an uncompromising attitude will make sure that tens of thousands more die in the long run, a one state solution is nothing but a pipe dream with no grounding in reality. You don't care about lives saved, what you care about is your own ideology.
Ernie, I look forward to your campaign for the return of Texas to Mexico, the rest of the USA to the Indians, Australia to the Aborigines, and the widespread repatriation of the Spanish from the entire continent of South America and return of the Aztec gold.
More of your endless whataboutery. Can you really not bring yourself to say "the killing of innocent people is wrong". Is it so difficult for you?
Sorry. I'll amend the score then
IDF- 170
Hamas - 1 (OG)
More of your endless whataboutery. Can you really not bring yourself to say "the killing of innocent people is wrong". Is it so difficult for you?
Do you seriously think a one state solution would lead to less innocent people being killed by either side?
Stoffel. Your retracted comment was along the lines of where should the Jews live.
No it wasn't. Either you're mistaken, or you're lyin. I asked where 'Israeis' should live, not Jews. A very important distinction, as I've explained above. Why are you trying to twist things?
As far as I'm concerned, Jews should be able tolive wherever they want, as should anyone of any other religion or otherwise. I don't subscribe to any ideology that claims a historical 'right' to live inan area to the detriment of others, as zionists do. That zionism is being used as a cover for the west's need to have a nuclear arsenal and massive military presence right next tothe 'unruly' Arabs (and all that ooil), is abhorrent, and something that should be challenged.
Ok. Perhaps mistaken. Not twisting anything.
"Before someone screams that they are targeting innocents and thus are as bad as Nazis, that ratio is the same as ours in Afghanistan."
Does that ratio use the IDF definition of a combatant "any one who does not vacate a property with in 30 seconds of a knock on the roof" or the uk one "anyone holding a weapon and targeting a friendly force ". There are potential serious defining and counting issues with figures about asymmetric warfare.
I have not followed this closely but was not the timeline :
3 boys kidnaped
phone call indicating dead Israeli security keep this secret
Israeli and Palestinian Authority cooperate to try and locate boys
Hamas and PA identify prime suspects to Israeli security
Israeli security use the "search" for massive arrest and interrogation of Hamas members supressing Hamas activity .
Hamas stop their anti-rocket patrols in Gaza (stopping other jihadist groups launching rockets at Israel)
Some one kidnaps and kills an Arab boy.
The Rocket attacks start.
The IDF strike back.
Pity I can't think of any source of optimism in all this .
people like Gonzy and Ernie come across as being the types who see Israel as pure evil
Whereas people like Tom come across as being the types who advocate the genocide of Palestinians and see nothing wrong in what the Israeli government is doing. You raise objections to this, they bring out the classic "you're anti-semitic" card... or worse "you're a Nazi" card...
I see Zionist Israeli government as pure evil because what it is doing IS pure evil.
I will however state again that I am not branding every Israeli citizen as evil. The evil that lurks within Israel is the movement of Zionism, which controls the government which is carrying out these atrocities.
There are some on here that refuse to accept that what the Israeli government is doing is wrong...and have gone as far as to blame the Palestinians for what is inflicted upon them.
People have to realise and see that it's not the Jews but the Zionists who are the problem. The Zionists are stealing the Jews off their identity and tarnishing their faith. In doing so they are also using the media that they control to brainwash the population with their twisted propaganda.
What has been going on in Palestine has been going on for years and has largely gone unreported. Due to the rise of social media the west can now see the full scale of the suffering there.
Some of the pro-Zionists on here only see what they want to see or more the case, only see what the Zionist controlled media wants them to see and they accept that as gospel...anything else outside of this gets refuted with accusations of anti-semitism thrown in for good measure...if that doesn't work then a dose of diversive whataboutery takes place....so long as the blame can be deflected off the Zionists.
In the last few days all I've seen is social media full of images and videos of dead and barely alive Palestinians being pulled out of the rubble of building that have been hit by Israeli rockets...many of these victims are women,children and the elderly...a video of a funeral procession that got hit by an Israeli rocket strike, a video of a Palestinian mother being taken to a makeshift morgue to identify her dead children, a father grieving for his dead child who had the side of his skull blown out from a rocket attack...and yet we see no images or videos of any Israeli victims.
And you wonder why people are up in arms of the disproportionate actions of Israel?
Because the suffering of these actions are completely disproportionate!
As much as I condemn Israel for what I can only describe as systematic genocide, I have to be honest and say that the Palestinians have done themselves no favour by having Hamas and PLO as their leaders, both parties are inept, corrupt and seem to be oblivious to methods of engaging the world community and media.
However its easy to stand on the sidelines and say they should not do this or that and that firing rockets is pointless. But it is their lives and we don't feel the pain and suffering they do and the desperation it leads them to after seeing little progress being made in any peace initiative over the last 50 or so years.
The whole international community is just as responsible for allowing this to happen...governments like the US, UK, Russian, French, German are quick to jump in when there are atrocities taking place in other parts of the world but not this one.
Even neighbouring governments such as the Jordanian, Egyptian, Turkish and Saudi governments are also equally responsible on allowing this to happen.
Until one of these governments steps up to the plate and says "no more Israel" this will never end.
Even if one of these governments did find the testicular fortitude to make a stand I cant see a way forward as the current Israeli government appears to have no intention of coming to the table to discuss a solution.
Instead it continues to defy all UN resolutions and the Geneva convention and carries on sticking 2 fingers up at the world while doing so.
Zionism is not Judaism
Zionism is a secular ideology at the heart of the evil that is being inflicted on the Palestinian people. There is no religion for Zionism; it is a secular nationalistic ethnocentric ideology that espouses its own racial superiority and exclusively supremacist existence. This is a narcissistic tendency and a clear sign of a people who are sick from the past traumas. They have been victimised and brutalised by the European Nazis but they are taking their revenge on innocent Palestinians. The European gentiles cannot be forever blackmailed into supporting this sickness nor should they capitulate to the constant reminder of the horror of Holocaust. If the western world turns a blind eye to the genocide committed by the Zionist state of Israel, a time will come when the west would pay dearly for their complicity in the mass murder of the Palestinians.
It is not religion that is causing the problem, for true Jews, Christians and Muslims can live as peaceful neighbours but the land grabbing, materialistic, morally bankrupt, spiritually empty secular and nationalistic Zionists are the real problem. They are the real evil and they are incapable of living peacefully with their neighbours. They bring nothing but death and destruction to those around them.
Dr J: 'More of your endless whataboutery. Can you really not bring yourself to say "the killing of innocent people is wrong". Is it so difficult for you?'Tom: Do you seriously think a one state solution would lead to less innocent people being killed by either side?
Irrelevant. Just answer my simple question, if you can.
Just answer my simple question, if you can.
he'll never answer your question DrJ..all he'll do is spout more whataboutery and accuse you of being an anti-Semite...
a Zionist admitting to being wrong?!...the day that happens is the day that Palestinian suffering magically ends...
Not sure if this has already been posted, nor if it will make a difference ... [url= http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/67165 ]Gov e-petition[/url].
The problem is that the Israeli government genuinely doesn't give a flying **** about international opinion. Couldn't care less. The only country that has any influence whatsoever is America. And they support them unquestioningly, and point blank refuse to criticise anything they do
Zionism is a secular ideology at the heart of the evil that is being inflicted on the Palestinian people. There is no religion for Zionism; it is a secular nationalistic ethnocentric ideology that espouses its own racial superiority and exclusively supremacist existence. This is a narcissistic tendency and a clear sign of a people who are sick from the past traumas. They have been victimised and brutalised by the European Nazis but they are taking their revenge on innocent Palestinians. The European gentiles cannot be forever blackmailed into supporting this sickness nor should they capitulate to the constant reminder of the horror of Holocaust. If the western world turns a blind eye to the genocide committed by the Zionist state of Israel, a time will come when the west would pay dearly for their complicity in the mass murder of the Palestinians.
It is not religion that is causing the problem, for true Jews, Christians and Muslims can live as peaceful neighbours but the land grabbing, materialistic, morally bankrupt, spiritually empty secular and nationalistic Zionists are the real problem. They are the real evil and they are incapable of living peacefully with their neighbours. They bring nothing but death and destruction to those around them
That really is a very good post. The best I've read in a long while.
i think this would be a good time to announce that i intend to organise a charity bike ride to raise funds for those suffering in Gaza.
the charity of choice will be pennyappeal.org to support the following appeal
http://www.pennyappeal.org/appeal/gaza-emergency-appeal
as i am northwest based the ride will be staged around around Lancashire or North Wales.
there are already around 10 riders confirmed so far but more riders would be more than welcome.
i've still yet to organise the logistics but once this has been fully agreed on by me and the other organisers i will post this officially on STW.
if in the meantime anyone would be interested in taking part feel free to drop me a message (e-mail in profile).
suggestions/advice regarding routes etc. would be much appreciated.
Gonzy YGM
That really is a very good post. The best I've read in a long while.
You can replace every reference to Zionism in that post with Hamas, considering they are on record as saying "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!".
Do you think they would be content with stopping at a one state solution and living in peace with Jews?
170
0
The UN is saying three quarters of the casualties are civilians. Can one of the zionist apologists explain to me why being related to a member of Hamas makes you a legitimate target. God help most of us if we're held accountable for the actions of everyone we're related too. Seems living nearby is a potential death sent ancestor. Perhaps they could move out of the heavily built up areas in the Gaza Strip to some of the quieter outlying villages?
I notice the Israelis, like the Americans in Iraq, are keen on showing 'surgical strikes'. There didn't look much 'surgical' about the artillery bombardment they've just shown on the BBC news
Can someone explain to me why being related to a member of the Taliban makes you a legitimate target?
Can someone explain to me why being related to a member of the Taliban makes you a legitimate target?
Can someone please explain to me why you can't stick to the subject?
Do you think they would be content with stopping at a one state solution and living in peace with Jews?
Well, we really don't know, do we? Still, better kill them all on the off chance. Worked pretty well for Herod, right?
I think it's fairly apparent why he won't stick to the subject. Involving, as it does, defending the indefensible.
I just want to see if your opinions are reliable across the board, do you think we purposely target civilians as a matter of policy in Afghanistan? If not, do you at least think that the actions of our troops in Afghanistan are indefensible?
I'm related to some Germans who worked around the train stations in the 40s am i to expect a knock on the roof tom
My own personal opinion is that we should never have been in Afghanistan in the first place. Or Iraq. I protested about it at the time. But that's irrelevant.
So, armed with that information, could you explain why having a relative in Hamas legitimises killing you?
What I think happens in Afghanistan has absolutely no bearing on what I think happens in Gaza. The 2 situations are entirely different. If you want to discuss Afghanistan, I suggest you start a new thread. While we're in this one, it is Israeli actions in Gaza that are under discussion.
So, armed with that information, could you explain why having a relative in Hamas legitimises killing you?
Good.
Unfortunately it doesn't, you could look at it the other way though. Why should Israel risk the lives of their soldiers in special forces raids to try and reduce the casualty figure?
What I think happens in Afghanistan has absolutely no bearing on what I think happens in Gaza. The 2 situations are entirely different.
So Brits killing people in Afghanistan is alright, but Jews killing people is a no no. Killing is killing and our reasons for killing in Afghanistan are probably more dubious than the Israelis.
Maybe so as not to appear to be indiscriminately butchering civilians?
Maybe you've picked up the faint vibe on this thread that it's not playing very well
