[Closed] homophobia alive and well on the streets

alerter les authorités, Juan!!!!!

on se tutoie ?

on se tutoie ?

Nope

touchy 😉

Junkyard - sorry I disagree with you very strongly.

Edukator puts the onus on emsz to alter her behaviour to avoid these incidents. Thats making it her responsibility that the incident happened IE blaming the victim. It makes it her fault it happened.

Its not like your parallel with the Asian and the EDL at all this is to people holding hands in public. Its not provocative behaviour its normal behaviour. By putting the onus on emsz to modify her behaviour to avoid this type of incident its making normal behaviour appear abnormal.

Maybe, Mr Juan, but Bayrou is in favour of giving gays the same rights as anyone else including the right to adopt.

WOAH THERE (thats old fashioned speak for stop a horse) WOAH WOAH!

holding hands before marriage?!

[img] [/img]

on se tutoie ?

Nope

touchy

Not touching but I wouldn't want a complete stranger to do it in the street, why would it be different on here 😉

And get your fact at least edukator, Bayrou is still against gay marriage.

Enchanté

Eh! excuse you lot!

This thread is about shitty stuff happening to emsz and homophobia, it's not a hand bag swinging strop out for the old ladies in you!

Its not like your parallel with the Asian and the EDL at all this is to people holding hands in public. Its not provocative behaviour its normal behaviour.

Like Bayrou I think lesbian couples having the right to adopt children is more important than being able to get married when a pacs gives gay couples a suitable legal framework.

the behaviour in question provoked a reaction from the Neanderthals.

I'm guessing of course but,

Given the intellectual proletariat we're dealing with here, I suspect Emsz and her partner would probably have provoked a reaction from them regardless, just perhaps a slightly different one.

OK I know I said I'd given up, but...I've taken what Edukator says as:

"Sometimes, such as when in fear of your safety or you just don't want the hassle, you can avoid that by not having any public displays of affection".

Seems a reasonable choice to me - of course any right thinking person wants all of this to be a non issue, but it's not for us to tell the OP that she has to fight that battle.

And as for his joke, of course it could be taken as offensive, it could also be taken as funny, I took a bit of both (I didn't see how there could be any malice behind it, it was a joke about straight men, fantasies and lesbians) but it just a bit wearing when all the PC types jump on the thread to tell him off - the OP can do so herself, but no, you have to tell edukator off and tell her to right the battle against homophobia.

Must be great getting to tell folk what to do all the time,I wish I was that wise.

"Sometimes, such as when in fear of your safety or you just don't want the hassle, you can avoid that...

Indeed. But whether holding hands should be considered risky is really the point this thread is now attempting to establish, isn't it? Personlly I believe not but it would seem from the viewpoint of Emsz it was quite frightening, in which case Eddy's viewpoint stands-up in order to protect herself and her partner. He's simply suggesting a pragmatic stance in these kind of matters as opposed to the knee-jerk 'it's my right' reaction when it's not always safe do to so.

COMMON SENSE AT LAST.

Thanks you.

Dare I point out that emsz referred to her aggressors as "tossers" in her opening post which made me smile and prompted my quip. Another poster later referred to them as a "bunch of wee chuggers" which again made me smile though I don't know the dictionary difinition of the expression. Smile in the face of adversity. Make light of things, indulge in a bit of black humour and life's injustices are easier to deal with IME.

cynic-al - Member

OK I know I said I'd given up, but...I've taken what Edukator says as:

"Sometimes, such as when in fear of your safety or you just don't want the hassle, you can avoid that by not having any public displays of affection".

But we're not talking about "sometimes" are we? We're talking about [i]always[/i]- because you can never predict when some random person in the street will turn out to be a nutter.

It's not like they walked hand-in-hand past a frothing anti-gay preacher or a skinhead rally or something, where there's a real indication of risk.

aaaaaaaahhh.. REAL common sense at last

I cannot believe that someone has suggested that Emz and her other half alter their behavior when all they were doing is holding hands ffs, this makes my blood boil, same as the idiots who have a go at women for breast feeding in public utter twunts. And breath!

emsz - that's shit! Really glad you and Sara are OK, It's a horrible thing to happen (a long time ago a similar thing happened to me and my girlfriend - got a load of abuse from a couple of very drunk guys. And it can be pretty scary - the phrase 'best way to sort out a lesbian is to give her a good seeing to by a real man' can be fairly frightening when it's said to you and your girlfriend, even when of course they don't actually go on to do anything).

Good on you for reporting it to the police (that in itself is a courageous thing to do), and carry on holding hands whenever you want to - it normal behaviour FFS!

As for those that say that Emsz (or anyone other gay couple) should not hold hands in public as it is against 'social norms' - have a proper think about the implications of what you are saying. How can anything change in society if it is always hidden away? Plus, it effectively means that emsz (or any other gay couple) can NEVER hold hands or express any affection in public, because you can never tell if the person near you might be some homophobic twunk. Last time I checked, homosexuality was not considered to only be acceptable 'behind closed doors' in the UK in the current day, it is (and should be) a normal relationship that's no different from any straight couple.

I think we are talking about "sometimes". Weighing people up on the basis of a long list of criteria is something humans are very good at. Dress, body language, facial expression etc. tell us a lot about people and it's safe to do most things in most places most of the time. Just now and then something about people tells you to be wary of them.

Edukator - sorry, but that isn't the case. You can't 'spot' an homophobic bigot in advance, they tend to appear in all guises. Or just appear unexpectedly round the corner, or be unseen walking behind you. Which is why I tried to suggest that you to have a proper think about what you were saying, as to take your approach (which I also consider to be unjustifiable even if only 'sometimes'), would mean as a gay person you could never have any public expression of affection. Which is utterly unacceptable.

Plus, the best way to overcome any bigotry is just to be open and normal (and no, that is not the same as some kind of 'militant campaign'!)

Lesbians? holding hands, you say?

[img] [/img]

Ultimately, the world is populated by some right idiots. I think there's a percentage of the population that will be offended by pretty much anything, as a justification for their subsequent actions. Glad you're ok though. **** 'em!

same as the idiots who have a go at women for breast feeding in public

Just because you have a baby attached doesn't make it decent public behaviour. Sorry.

oh dear 😆

Heterosexual couples don't seem to feel the need to hold hands everywhere. Madame is selective about where and when it's acceptable to her, and sometimes I'd much rather have both hands free; the last metro from Marseille centre to Prado for example.

i'll rise to that one hora what exactly is indecent about breast feeding?

why should the baby have access to boob but not hora? its jealousy 😉

And right on cue..... along he comes to illustrate my point

He objects to breast feeding as he is possessed by the spirit of this Benny Hill, and believes norks are only for one thing. Some people think its funny, but its actually tragic.

This is what the world looks like through Hora's eyes

i'll rise to that one hora what exactly is indecent about breast feeding?

Your level of decency isn't the same as everyone elses. Why should everyone be told to expect a partial level of nudity in every day life?

Why should we be told that its liberating and/or natural and we should accept it?

A cover over the baby protects both the Mothers privacy and others who may find it offensive.

Heterosexual couples don't seem to feel the need to hold hands everywhere.

Oddly you can hold hands with a man in public[ as a man but not women holding hands with women]

The thing here edukator is your choice about holding hands is exactly that your choice. It is not being not done to avoid offending bigotted f wits. I agree it is often prudent to do this on occasions for gay couples but it is also a shame they have to in general. their treatment is nothing like the treatment breeders get in public.

You got some allies with your point stop digging dude

Why should we be told that its liberating and/or natural and we should accept it?

Perhaps you could write us out a list of what you do, and what you don't find acceptable Hora. In fact, when you've done that, why not get a friend to video you reading your new 'moral code'? You could post it on the web

[img] [/img]

I'm not rising to Hora's troll 🙄

Boobies out in public?
I'm not rising either. 😈

er cos breast feeding is natural? it's what the breast is designed for? why should my child go hungry or have to have his dinner in a toilet because some people can't get past a schoolboy attitude to the opposite sex?

There is actually sod all partial nudity involved in the way most women breast feed.

"Binners Law" the 2012 version of Godwins law? Comparing a poster with the Taliban?

Reductio ad Jihadium. I like it, very much.

Because their lazy wifes bottle fed, nowt wrong with some bitty!

I can't really be bothered to read all that. The sad thing is Emsz has experienced something very upsetting, the encouraging thing is that she doesn't usually experience things like this. Attacks like this used to be typical, now they are seldom, soon they'll be never. Theres nothing Emsz needs to change, other than to continue to be a force for change. The changes that need to happen are happening.

twohundred

twohundred

I'm not so sure the changes that need to happen are happening, Mac. A lot of progress was made but in my lifetime I've observed an enlightenment that is now being challenged within many sections of business and society. I never felt so free to say what I thought as in the 80s, now I'm faced with many contradictions:

I shared the queue in my local supermarket with a lady (it could have been a fat bloke I suppose) in a burka for the first time ever recently. Not just "le voile" but the full black thing. What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future? (I remember Sarkozy got a slating on this forum for banning le voile in public sector schools and institutions)

The independant ladies and men of the night have been ousted from their respective corners and there isn't a red lit window in town. Resrictive laws have driven their profession underground into a world of modern slavery.

Company HR people spend their time trawling through facebook profiles and the like and eliminate profiles they don't like before things even get to interview. How public do you want your sexual preferences to be when a photo of your presence at a gay pride event with your name next to it can limit your career propects? Thankfully there are many people with my name but I'm still careful what I make public. A student of my wife's colleague didn't get a job with a US corporation when he admitted to the interviewer that the person sitting on the toilet in the photograpah was indeed him, a photograph a mate at uni had taken as a prank (so the thing in the Matt Damon film wasn't just fiction).

I've got more to suggest we're going backwards but the post is getting long so fire away:

What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future?

How does one person's choice of dress dictate yours? Do you genuinely feel there's a growing threat to your freedom to choose your own trousers?

Err more like

[Img] [/img]

Plus not every breast feeder will be a MILF

[Img] [/img]<

I shared the queue in my local supermarket with a lady (it could have been a fat bloke I suppose) in a burka for the first time ever recently. Not just "le voile" but the full black thing. What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future?

I knew it.. I nearly said it on page 2 but I thought I ought to hear him out first..

Edukator is this guy after the Special Brew wears off..

Depends where I go.

[img] ?w=510&h=382[/img]

I'm not allowed to go shopping barefoot anymore.

You are the naked rambler and I claim my £5 (although I'm not sure I want to contemplate where you keep your wallet)

I'm actually more like [img] [/img]

Emsz - what an unpleasant experience. You are very restrained to call this homo[b]phobia[/b] - there's no fear here (on their part) just unpleasant thuggery and abuse. No justification of any sort. Hope you got/get over it quickly.

What do you know Yunki, that I'm happy to discuss things you can only rant about? Care to discuss how to reconcile European laws on sexism and blatant sexism within religion. Care to discuss the role of women in society and role of muslim women in society? How to impose the egalitarian values of the secular state when they are challenged by religious fundamentalists.

I shared the queue in my local supermarket with a lady (it could have been a fat bloke I suppose) in a burka for the first time ever recently. Not just "le voile" but the full black thing. What with fundamentalist and creationists on the up how free will we be to dress as we wish and speak our minds in the future?

Remind me of the difference between you and them ...oh yes that it different clothes but not a different principle ...someone else decides what someone can and cannot wear ...

I cant wait for you to impose equality on them by forcing them to stop doing what you disapprove of [ again just what they [allegedly] want to do] ...there is just too much irony for words in that post

How public do you want your sexual preferences to be when a photo of your presence at a gay pride event with your name next to it can limit your career propects?

...if viewed by a bigot.

I probably wouldn't want to work for them if that was the case.

Love the muslamic ray guns!

What do you know Yunki,

I know that although you may be willing to discuss all sorts of lowbrow sociological non-issues.. you are still xenophobic and therefore probably not as intellectually stimulating as you like to think..

for that reason I will just heckle from the sidelines.. to engage any further than that would be akin to using a dog poo as a football.. 🙂

I'm talking about a reversal of individual freedoms Junkyard. Observe the muslim women of the 70s/80s and you'll find that around the world women were showing their faces, and very often wearing what I can only describe as modern dress. That change in dress went hand in hand with a change in the role of women within those societies. It reflected a number of freedoms won.

So what do we se today? Looking around me I see a return to religious symbols, especially women's clothing, and a return to the roles that clothing limits women to. Who decides women can't drive in Saudi? [url= http://printempsarabe.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/05/25/les-saoudiennes-reclament-le-droit-de-conduire/ ]men[/url]. Who decides that woman wears that burka in my local supermarket, a man.

And who decides that two women can't hold hands on Cowley Road?

Is it anyone who thinks they might be better advised not to?

Who decides eh, nsdog. Well you can start with the media and their stereotyping that reinforces predjudice and discrimination within the population. Homosexuals are to blame for AIDS right? No, Google "bushmeat" or something similar for the full answer, but how many of the people that leaned to blame homosexuals from the media in the 80s have now changed their minds?

about a reversal of individual freedoms Junkyard.

Observe the muslim women of the 70s/80s and you'll find that around the world women were showing their faces, and very often wearing what I can only describe as modern dress.

That change in dress went hand in hand with a change in the role of women within those societies. It reflected a number of freedoms won.

i am out, this is Just BS. If you cannot see the stupidity of you banning women wearing something to "free them" then nothing i will say will convince you

Let them choose what they wear whether it offends western sensibilities or Muslim ones....not just imposing our superior culture on them ...how is that freedom from oppression for anyone?

Well I think perpetuating attitudes that people should

adapt to one's environment rather than go on a crusade to change it

Funny thing is I disagree with JY about this

If you cannot see the stupidity of you banning women wearing something to "free them" then nothing i will say will convince you

It's like freeing a black slave in the middle of KKK country, great idea, but likely to lead to his rapid death. He is safer in the hands of his slave master. So he will likely choose to not be freed. So ti is with women and the burka, the social pressure from their own society is so enormous, along with conditioning that they think the burka thing is right. In fact they are being oppressed, so the brave step to ban it is a stroke of brilliance imho.

Damn that Parks woman and her non conforming and apple cart tipping attitude.

"Rewrote the Koran" You do sarcasm very badly, Junkyard.

Try Googling things like "Burka Tunisie" and you'll find lots of articles blogs written by people afraid off and protesting against a return of the burka. The burka was banned up to the revolution last year but is now allowed and women feel under increasing pressure to wear it. Don't take my word for it, do some Googling on the shake out of last year's revolutions across the arab world.

The winners in the revolutions look like being the fundamentalist muslims with a reintegration of elements of Sharia law in the constitutions and law. Not good for women's rights.

It is equally idiotic to decide that the way to free women from the oppression of being forced to wear clothes against their will is to ban them from wearing clothes you dont like.

Some women dont want to wear it some do...they should be free to choose...your way is just as oppressive and forceful as the other way...you are not that daft that you cannot see that.

Depends what you mean by women’s rights what you are essentially saying is our culture is superior to theirs and our treatment of women is better..
I would read up on anthropology if i were you, you cannot judge a culture by your standards or it will always appear to be inferior

FWIW their was research done on this and the muslim community views the west as oppressing women because they are overly sexualised and dress to titillate men. There are many examples of scantily clad media "Whores" with plastic bodies and unfeasibly large breast flaunting them for men and for money - is this the freedom all women deserve?

Ditto we see the wearing the Burkha as oppressing women and restricting their freedom of expression etc

I am not sure any side banning anything can attempt to take any form of moral high ground..
FIWW I think both cultures have a point on the treatment of women , but I remain pro choice even to wear clothes from either culture I may tut at and disapprove

junkyard +1

I've always found that most people (from personal experience) who uphold the right of muslims within society to do as they please are the very same people overtly willing to tear into Christianity.

Well that's got nothing to do with anything.

Well that's got nothing to do with anything.

It has to do with hypocrisy

I've always found pixies at the bottom of me garden..

(calling hypocrisy is a very childish diversion tactic.. waaaay too much importance allocated to that arrogant little device)

tis is very funny edukator, because every single day I see plenty of women/girls going out in the street dressed as what one would qualify 'modern', and you would qualify as probably provocative as when the weather is hot, I can actually see their ankles and knees.

I've always found that most people (from personal experience) who uphold the right of muslims within society to do as they please are the very same people overtly willing to tear into Christianity.

Is that a twofer on the false premises, love?

I've always found pixies at the bottom of me garden..

(calling hypocrisy is a very childish diversion tactic.. waaaay too much importance allocated to that mean little device)

I see it every day from the trendy 'left'. The anti christian pro islam hypocrisy of their posting is almost laughable.

I have gay friends, they have (and rightly so) serious concerns about the rapidly growing foot that islam is sticking in the door of our hard fought for democratic/social rights.

I see day after day, trendy left wingers, so overtly anti establishment and blinkered in their views, that they're willing to sell their soul to an even more blinkered and outdated dogma simply to score points at the previous one.

Is that a twofer on the false premises, love?

At least - along with a " some of my best friends are......."

the rapidly growing foot that islam is sticking in the door of our hard fought for democratic/social rights.

hmm.. interesting fantasy you have there.. would you like sugar on the right wing propaganda that you so lustily devour..? or a big lemon wedge..?

with regards to your 6th form moral outrage at hypocrisy.. I'm not really sure how an opinion on one subject can categorically void an opinion on another, seperate subject simply because they don't match..

Propaganda? Your blinkered views and left wing dogma are pathetically hypocritical..

oh dear.. where are you getting your information on the subject from then..?

and I'm really not sure about left wing dogma.. 😆

I think that perhaps in this context you may be referring to people with more cosmopolitan life experiences than your own.. quite different from left wing politics I believe..

and your accusations of hypocrisy.. again.. smack to me of playground debating tactics.. sorry fella..

I came here to heckle edukator though.. not to get drawn into debate with you my friend.. I don't have the time or the inclination

Could you explain how Islam is 'sticking it's foot etc etc hyperbole etc rights' please?

Could you explain how Islam is 'sticking it's foot etc etc hyperbole etc rights' please?

Dont make me laugh.. have you ever even lived within or near a large muslim community?

Do you know their views on homosexuality?

how is that infringing on your rights..?

you are a frothing right wing looney and I claim my £5

elzorillo - Member
Do you know their views on homosexuality?

Same as Catholics?

Lets get a few things straight.

Christians don't cut the throats of innocent tourists, Christians don't blow up buses with innocent people in, Christians don't blow themselves up in packed London underground trains, Christians don't blow up trains in Madrid, again full of innocent people.

Christians can take critism without wanting to kill anyone who blasphemes them. Christians don't chop peoples hands off for theft, Christians don't dictate that you can starve your Wife if she refuses sex. Christians don't stone women to death.

What about the above is unfair?