Let's hope some of those responsible are brought to justice.
They lied and lied and lied for 25 years.
It's a black mark on our Country that this inquest has taken so long to come about
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-merseyside-36102998
Looks like the owners/managers of the stadium are in the firing line as much as chief insp Duckenfield.
And only happened now because of the Human Rights Act and ECHR.
And only happened now because of the Human Rights Act and ECHR.
Which is exactly why the Establishment is so keen to ditch it!
I wonder how The Sun will be "reporting" this considering their sordid history with the tragedy? Too much to expect some humility I'd imagine but you never know.
I don't know the legal ins and outs but I hope that there's no appeal possibility on this verdict? Perhaps someone who knows more could confirm or otherwise?
Justice for the 96 is closer but it has yet to be achieved
Folk need to do time for this
Mistakes happen but the cover up was deliberate and let to such heartache as plod blamed the victims and in such horrible ways
I suspect a prosecution will take just as long as it did to get here.
They'll now find that all the senior Police at the time are suffering from Dementia and are unfit to stand trial....
What would be considered justice for the 96?
A period of rehabilitation for those found responsible?
Agree the organised cover up is a disgrace, very moving listening to this happening live on the radio.
27 years to find out that the establishment lied, really disgraceful
Finally hopefully it can be put to rest.
Why should people serve time? Are people suggesting people went to work that day thinking they hoped people would be harmed ?
Hindsight is s wonderful thing
[i]What would be considered justice for the 96?[/i]
As a minimum: an admission of guilt from those who were responsible and then did so much to evade justice by lying and cheating?
But I'm not one of the families so I really don't know.
Massive day tbh. Some cretins'll still believe the lies of the time but even if nothing else ever comes from it- and I bloody hope it does- it's still a big deal.
[i]Why should people serve time? [/i]
because they actually conspired to alter the sworn statements of serving police officers to fit the narrative that the fans were responsible?
I can't imagine what those affected have gone through and how they feel now. As for justice, not sure. Only the families can answer that. It doesn't seem right though that the ones responsible have effectively "got away" with it and those senior officers are probably enjoying a comfortable retirement.
One of the key issues here is whether fans contributed to their own injuries or death. QUESTION 7 covered this as follows:
Behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Yes or no.
No.
Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Yes or no.
No.
The families of the victims, Liverpudlians and Scousers have suffered the backlash of the inference that fans were irresponsible ever since. Pilloried and abused, shame and discrimination at the callous hands of The Scum, for example. This has largely been brought to boot since the announcements in 2012. Now The Scum will have to GO! #JUSTICE #JFT96 #YNWA
This is only one of hundreds of cover-ups by Police or officials that happen every day here and all over the world. I wonder how other victims of miscarriages of justice or cover-ups are feeling now? Encourged to make a complaint, I would hope, if they have the time, energy and money.
does anyone else think that the cover up and subsequent inquest has taken away from the underlying reasons here?
This was always going to happen, in fact, it has happened several times before. Bolton Wanderers, Rangers both lost fans in crushes iirc. Valley parade, Heysel. There was only so many times you could throw pissed up blokes into ancient old stadiums without causing a huge disaster.
I can remember bunking over the turnstiles at Roker Park for a lot less than actually paying to get in as a kid, and I bet that happened at Hillsborough.
That ground was an absolute shit hole, the terraces were as steep as the stairs in my house, the exit staircases were far too small, yet I still managed to get stuck, feet off the ground, in a surge to get out of the ground in an FA Cup semi in the years AFTER The deaths of those fans. You just can't see that happening in the grounds of today, yet it took those deaths to change things.
The Jury found the club and site engineers responsible for failings of the 'infrastructure' too - it's not just the Police held to blame.
CPS have announced they're considering charges against senior police officers.
I just don't get how zero blame can be allocated to the crowd itself. How can someone at the front be crushed if the people behind aren't pushing? If nobody pushed anyone the stand would just fill up until nobody else could get in.
How can you get crushed if everyone behind you is standing upright giving you space?
@paulsoxo There is no comparison to the Ibrox disaster, that was a case of fans exiting the stadium thinking their team was beat only for the team to score in the dying minutes and those leaving tried to get back in. At Hillsborough the fans were deliberately maneuvered into an overcrowded and unsafe area by the stadium management and police. The subsequent cover up is the most shameful aspect of all of this and amounts to Perverting the course of justice IMO.
OUTOFBREATH,how poignant your tag is.
Crowd management was totally flawed. If you've ever stood on packed terraces, when someone trips over a step, a group of people will be pushed by that single body. When the group are pushed it's a bit like dominoes.
Why should people serve time?
They broke the law?
I just don't get how zero blame can be allocated to the crowd itself. How can someone at the front be crushed if the people behind aren't pushing? If nobody pushed anyone the stand would just fill up until nobody else could get in.
How can you get crushed if everyone behind you is standing upright giving you space?
Because at Hillsborough you came into the ground via tunnels, so diverting too much flow down one tunnel causes one person to push another, into another, like you would in a crowded pub, adding in to that everyone is pushing the same way that then results in the person on the top step of the terrace falling forward and pushing several people in front of them forward, those several people push several more people and the poor souls at the front end up with nowhere to go.
Whether every person there should have been there is a different story though.
[i]I just don't get how zero blame can be allocated to the crowd itself. [/i]
Maybe you should have sat with the jury for two years and then you might have all the information they had?
it's not just the Police held to blame.
This shouldn't be lost sight of as the stadium wasn't fit for purpose, there was no safety certificate and the ambulance service have also been found at fault.
@outofbreath - the people at the back were trying to get into see a football match they would have had no idea that the pen was so crowded people at the front were being crushed.
Really?
This image (halfway down article) should clear that up for you.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-inquests-jury-says-96-victims-were-unlawfully-killed ]Guardian graphic[/url]
@Surroundedbyhills, agree however football stadium design at the time allowed that to happen, it wouldn't happen in the newer stadiums by virtue of how open they are.
*not infering any point of view*
Did lots of fans turn up without tickets (after being warned not to) or not?
@outofbreath - the people at the back were trying to get into see a football match they would have had no idea that the pen was so crowded people at the front were being crushed.
Which seems to support the "they were pushing" theory, in which case I can't see how they can be 100pc blameless.
[i]I can't see how they can be 100pc blameless. [/i]
have you never tried to get into a concert or a very crowded train station?
There's just a mass of people and they all move forward a step at a time.
You can't see what's happening 3 or 4 people in front of you, let alone at the other end of a tunnel.
No one 'pushes' in the sense of arms out shoving, they just keep shuffling forward - it's the weight of peoples bodies that causes the problem. They're not 'to blame' for this.
Why should people serve time?
Are you ****ing serious?!!!!
Serving police officers, right up to the top level, conspired, with the help of a compliant media (scum live Kelvin Mackenzie) to fabricate evidence, and mount an orchestrated cover up which they fought an investigation into what actually happened for decades. All while creating a toxic environment where the 96 victims were blamed for their own deaths, while they painted themselves as the victims, and absolved themselves of all responsibility
You don't think anyone deserves to see the inside of a cell for that then?
does anyone else think that the cover up and subsequent inquest has taken away from the underlying reasons here?
I'm somewhat of this view as well. The cover-up was shocking, and criminal offences around that must be pursued, but we are judging the decisions made at that time with hindsight.
Was the unlawful killing verdict unanimous? Initial reports suggested it was a majority, so a criminal conviction even for manslaughter is not a definite certainty. The desire to punish those in charge is totally understandable, but I'd hate another 2 years and millions of pounds to be wasted on a manslaughter charge that might not stick.
Crowd safety has come on massively since Hillsborough, that is a fitting tribute to those poor people who died in the tragedy, not a potentially futile prosecution and a load of solicitors lining their pockets for (albeit justifiable) compensation claims.
They were being ushered in by the police and stewards to relieve overcrowding at the point they were at.
I really really think you should at least take a cursory glance at one or two of the facts before coming up with some new theories.
Or maybe you're right. 🙄
Whether every person there should have been there is a different story though.
Those without tickets do not appear to have affected the outcome of the days events - in several reports and (crucially) in the eyes of the jury.
96 tweets like this to come;
[i]
#Hillsborough inquests John (Jack) Anderson, 62, security guard from Liverpool Verdict: Traumatic rupture of abdominal aorta. Died: 3.08pm[/i]
Let's stop ****ing blaming the fans, please.
The Jury had all the evidence and someone who's clearly heard none of it deciding they know best is disrespectful to the jurors and those who died, today of all days.
Ok so people lying about what happened, when does that become unlawful killing ?
In was an awful tragic accident on all parts. Lessons can be learned but what benefit to having to 'blame' someone when no one (unless I misunderstood) went out that day to cause harm to others
unlawful killing because the police and club had failed to take reasonable precautions to prevent it happening.
Same as driving too fast and leaving the road and killing someone stood on the pavement is not a 'tragic accident'.
Because the people who's job it was to make sure this exact event couldn't take place didn't do their jobs properly, made very bad decisions on the day because they hadn't done their jobs properly and then lied about it afterwards and tried to blame the victims to cover up the fact that they hadn't done their jobs properly
/wwaswas. I get that, but was any other stadium / setup different at that time, I doubt it. A load of unfortunate circumstances led to an outcome.
when does that become unlawful killing
When a jury that's heard all the evidence decides that decisions were made which lead to the deaths.
Question 5. The opening of the gates: When the order was given to open the exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium was there any error or omission by the commanding officers in the control box which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
Jury's answer: Yes
"Commanding officers did not inform officers in the inner concourse prior to the opening of Gate C.
"Commanding officers failed to consider where fans would go.
"Commanding officers failed to order the closure of the central tunnel prior to the opening of Gate C".
It's not a question of whether they made decisions to deliberately cause the deaths (that would be murder, i assume) or indeed whether they thought it through properly and even realised what they were doing might cause deaths; the fact is they made decisions that in the opinion of the jury after hearing the evidence caused or contributed to the crush and subsequent loss of life.
Fact.
Lessons can be learned but what benefit to having to 'blame' someone when no one (unless I misunderstood) went out that day to cause harm to others
How many drivers that kill cyclists go out that day with the intention of doing so? Are they all just tragic accidents too?
Have some of the commenters in this thread even as much as glanced at the ****ing events of that day?
Some of the questions are quite frankly pathetic at this stage of the investigation.
Go and read some material rather than making half arsed comments about blame.
Ok so people lying about what happened, when does that become unlawful killing ?
FFS, It "becomes" unlawful killing, when you let a jury look over ALL the evidence, for two years, and that is the verdict that is arrived at.
Feel free to question it, but unless you have looked at all the same evidence as those jurors, your opinion doesn't mean anything at all I'm afraid (and you risk looking like a disrespectful tool)
Just going to leave this here.
[img] 
[/img]
You also have to take into account that the same police force were responsible for [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave ]this[/url], so its fair to say that they had quite a bit of form for the industrial scale fabrication of evidence, and the creation of a culture of impunity where they thought they could do whatever the **** they liked, with no comeback
Jesus some of the comments on here are absolutely ridiculous. Fortunately we don't live in a society where the proper test for criminal and/or moral responsibility for death is one solely of whether or not there was intent. If you've never heard of the concept of negligence then go and look it up and stop embarrassing yourself, on a cycling forum of all places.
#JFT96
[i]A load of unfortunate circumstances[/i]
no, a load of specific decisions were made by people who's job it was to ensure this exact event didn't occur.
It wasn't 'circumstances' it was errors, repeated and unforced.
And even while people were dying in the ground the people in charge refused to accept it was happening and kept allowing more people into the tunnel.
It was a ****ing omnishambles and there were people who were legally responsible to make sure it didn;t happen - they failed, utterly and completely to discharge their duties effectively and then spent 25 years lying, cheating and using the court system to try and make sure their personal failures did not come to light. They manipulated a willing press to blame the victims (there's still people on this thread who think somehow the fans were to blame).
Enough of this 'oh it was just one of those things that happen'. No it wasn't or as you say, it would have happened everywhere. But iut didn't.
*This* club and *those* senior police officers ****ed up so badly 96 people died. It was an accident only to the extent that it wasn't the intended outcome but the opportinuties to prevent it were there and those in charge failed to make the right decisions before the day and on it.
FunkyDunc - MemberOk so people lying about what happened, when does that become unlawful killing ?
It doesn't- they're 2 different but wholly connected things. First people were unlawfully killed, then there was a criminal conspiracy to hide it.
You must ask yourself though, why the criminal conspiracy, if there was nothing to hide? Unless you think they did it for a laugh, or for the practice.
was any other stadium / setup different at that time, I doubt it. A load of unfortunate circumstances led to an outcome.
A load of patently f'ing obvious circumstances that were easily foreseeable at the time and not just in hindsight. And the failure to consider those circumstances was so negligent and so awful as to merit criminal punishment.
I don't disagree with anything said, I just think that it could have been any ground, any where in the UK at that time. Unfortunately it took the tragedy for things to change
If thats the case, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country?
It happened because of the negligence and incompetence of a police force that didn't seem particularly bothered about the safety of people they clearly regarded as scum. They still don't seem bothered today.
How many drivers that kill cyclists go out that day with the intention of doing so? Are they all just tragic accidents too?
I expect the majority are precisely that.
Nothing to do with this thread, I really do not claim to know what happened. I just don't know what rehabilitation will occur by locking any of those responsible up.
Some of the deluded nonsense on here today makes for depressing reading.
The police neglected their duty of care to the fans, that's what they are there for, that's what they are paid to do. They herded the fans into the pen with no consideration for their well being & as a consequence the police actions overcrowded that pen & were a major factor in the death of 96 innocent football fans, normal people enjoying a day out at the match. how is that hard to understand?
A load of patently f'ing obvious circumstances that were easily foreseeable at the time and not just in hindsight.
If thats the case, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country?
In fairness, and with the experience of being a football watcher at that time, those circumstances were not particularly different to many other grounds, and were either not realised or ignored at them as well.
Whether other grounds were better policed, or just 'luckier' I don't know; I certainly have been in some horribly frightening crushes myself. The facts remain, the ground wasn't safe, the policing of the ground was negligent, and on this particular day those failures had catastrophic consequences. The fact that the police in this case were 'unlucky' because their failings caused this outcome is immaterial.
If there's a legacy to this it's that grounds are now far safer than they were. But that's some small comfort today.
My Dad distinctly remembers being in a similar squeeze situation at Hillsborough around the time.
I remember being involved in one as recent as 3 years ago at London Road (P'boro) mainly caused by the fact the terrace was accessed from the side and people don't filter all the way down, thankfully this stand has been changed.
If thats the case,, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country
To be fair binners, the number of travelling fans to cup semi finals changes this slightly. Larger numbers, unfamiliar surroundings, Liverpool wouldn't have took that many fans to Sheffield Wednesday away as a league game.
I just don't know what rehabilitation will occur by locking any of those responsible up.
The guilty might repent their ways?
It also sends a clear signal to the current Police that unlawful killing and conspiracy / corruption won't be tolerated.
sorry - rereading, unlucky isn't really conveying what i mean. Illustrate -
If you speed round a corner on the wrong side and hit a car coming the other way - you've been clearly a major contributor to the outcome.
If you speed round a corner on the wrong side and don't hit a car coming the other way because he's 10 seconds later / not there at all - you've done the same but got away with it. You can call it lucky / unlucky, the incident and situation were the same but the outcome is different but avoidable if you hadn't sped round the corner in the first place.
The fact other grounds may have escaped a serious incident by pure luck is immaterial. This time, it went wrong and they were directly at fault for part of that. Just because others may have acted the same at other grounds with a different outcome, makes no odds.
To be fair binners, the number of travelling fans to cup semi finals changes this slightly.
...which happens every year.
Many many factors at play here, not least the unintended consequences of fences between the pitch and the stands and a failure to force such an incident. I too remember my first football match in the mid 70's bl--dy dangerous in hindsight and that was before the fences.
If thats the case, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country?
Don't forget they'd already been people killed at Ibrox (twice) and Bradford in the UK, plus Heyesl. So it's fair to say stadium disasters in old badly designed stadium were already occurring.
I just don't know what rehabilitation will occur by locking any of those responsible up.
Odd time for you to become a bleeding heart liberal interested in the rights of the criminal rather than the victim
What happened to hang em high wrecker?
As for still blaming the fans for being there and crushing folk
FFS you look both stupid - there has just been a judgment on that - and also heartless and contemptible
The victims were not responsible and going down that route is what has led to 20 years of hurt, deceit, lies and outright deception from the police and other agents of the state
Even now some folk are still trying to argue this
Distasteful as it is wrong.
In fairness, and with the experience of being a football watcher at that time, those circumstances were not particularly different to many other grounds,
I think the Leppings Lane end of Sheffield Wednesday's ground is fairly unique in that fans were funnelled into the ground via a bottleneck caused by the River Don immediately to the south and close-packed terraced housing immediately to the north.
[img]
[/img]Other stadiums would likely have had space for the extra fans to move in to where, in this case, there was a river. Once that many fans were through the perimeter fence it was only ever going to turn bad.
As with so many disasters, it was a combination of individual errors and failings by a whole host of different people which added together to produce the outcome on the day. I'm not sure about pursuing individuals for their part in a wider failure, although there may be a couple who have a more significant case to answer. You could pursue SYP 'corporately', but I imagine it would be another decade of legal blind alleys and I'd rather that energy/money was put into further work on stadium and public event safety.
What does get my goat is the subsequent cover-up and smear. Those police officers who initiated and participated knowingly in that deception should get their day in court.
Does it Ransos?
Liverpool, and their supporters are in the FA cup semi finals, at Hillsborough, and are allocated the Leppings lane end?
Using your thought process, this makes Hillsborough Safe, and also the police who control the situation safe, as it's never happened to them before. Therefore the only variable is the fans? Are you saying the fans were at fault?!
Football fans of the day were (and still are) treat with contempt. The grounds were unsafe, the police made unsafe choices, there are any amount of contributing factors.
How much training do you think your average steward in the ground had? There was a documentary on tv that exposed the Sunderland stewards as blokes who just wanted to get into the match for nowt.
Not a believer in the afterlife but I'll suspend that for a while in the hope that Anne Williams is somewhere looking at all of this saying "I ****ing told you so."
Odd time for you to become a bleeding heart liberal interested in the rights of the criminal rather than the victim
What happened to hang em high wrecker?
I have never been a fan of hang 'em high. I am also not a paid up member of the "prison is for rehab" club but I am interested in those who follow this train would justify locking up any involved in the name of "rehabilitation" when in reality, none could be achieved.
STILL some scumbags trying to blame the victims. Classy.
Does it Ransos?Liverpool, and their supporters are in the FA cup semi finals, at Hillsborough, and are allocated the Leppings lane end?
Using your thought process, this makes Hillsborough Safe, and also the police who control the situation safe, as it's never happened to them before. Therefore the only variable is the fans? Are you saying the fans were at fault?!
Football fans of the day were (and still are) treat with contempt. The grounds were unsafe, the police made unsafe choices, there are any amount of contributing factors.
How much training do you think your average steward in the ground had? There was a documentary on tv that exposed the Sunderland stewards as blokes who just wanted to get into the match for nowt.
It is a fact that the Cup semi-finals happen every year, and that means a large number of fans at an unfamiliar ground. I made no other point, and your attempt to suggest I was in any way blaming the fans is cheap and nasty.
I typed out a long piece in response to some commentators on this thread, then decided it served no real purpose other than perhaps as a vehicle for my own opinions. Which on a day like today, are of no consequence.
I hope today can be the start of something more positive to all those poor people who lost loved ones, simply because they went to watch a football match.
I had not seen that letter from Ingham before.
I thought I couldn't be shocked about anything that awful man said any more.
I was wrong
[i]What does get my goat is the subsequent cover-up and smear. Those police officers who initiated and participated knowingly in that deception should get their day in court.[/i]
Indeed....and its also the fact that those people who have lost their nearest and dearest have had to put up with the years of having their memory tarnished...wrongly!
Will it stop the copper here being a lying bastard...who knows but , as you know, its not just about rehabilitation or we would let every "crime of passion" off.
Do you think the guilty deserved to be punished for their crime?
yes or no?
I think it may well make other coppers think about covering shit up if they lie in the future.
Odd to argue that any sentence that wont rehabilitate should not be imposed. I have never seen you argue that - or anyone lese for that matter.
[i]I had not seen that letter from Ingham before.[/i]
He clearly came to the conclusion that we had an honest Police force and backed them up.
I thought I couldn't be shocked about anything that awful man said any more.
he still refuses to apologise!
jekkyl - Member
*not infering any point of view*
Did lots of fans turn up without tickets (after being warned not to) or not?
No, they didn't. That's part of the lies - the deliberate ,manufactured lies - that those responsible for the care of people at that match began manufacturing to cover their own arses. Lies that they invented, and then perpetuated my falsifying and modifying statements, passing lies about drunken ticketless fans to the press, and perjuring themselves in court for years. Lies that are still in the ears and minds of lots of people 27 years later. But the jury today dismissed them as exactly that - lies. Clear verdict is that there was no behaviour by the fans that contributed.
As for people doing time - Duckenfield, the bloke in charge that day, did exactly **** all, despite having seen several previous crushes and near incidents, and never bothered to familiarise himself with any of the aspects of his job that might have prevented the disaster. He was criminally negligent. Does he deserve time for that? Matter of opinion. But the years of conspiracy and obstruction of justice that followed the negligence are a criminal matter, without doubt. Sadly, the families will have to go through years more in court before they see justice for that.
It's not like there wasn't a warning
[url= https://hotspurhq.com/2012/09/12/the-hillsborough-disaster-in-1981-it-could-have-been-tottenham/ ]FA Cup Semi 1981[/url]