[Closed] Hillsborough - Unlawful Killing.

I'd say its both loum.

The point I'm making is that there were large sections of society at the time - not the ones writing newspaper articles - who were immediately sceptical of the official line. And that scepticism was derived from real-world experience, where the police were most definitely not trusted, by default. Far from it. And with some very very good reasons.

Some of us had had the somewhat naive, dated idea of the police as some type of benign protector of us all removed quite forcefully through the 80's. They were generally hated, and if not hated, then certainly distrusted, by pretty much everyone where I grew up, and viewed as a state milita, and a law unto themselves

The politicisation during the miners strike
The corruption of the Birmingham 6 and Guilford four trials
High profile units closing due to corruption

Steven Lawrence

It did not take the mind of Sherlock to see they were, again, lying to cover their own arses,

[i]They may have convinced 99.9% of Mail readers. I'd say that In a working class population, in post-industrial areas, who actually attended football matches, and had seen the reality of the way the police had carried on through the miners strike (like a government backed paramilitary militia), you could easily half that.[/i]

I once went to watch an Arsenal v Coventry City match by myself circa 1977 aged around 15. There was no trouble, the crowd were happy cos we were winning and the Old Bill piled in and grabbed a guy behind me and pushed him down the terraces, just as I turned round and he accidently head butted me in the face. Jeez it hurt and I was still holding my face when another one grabbed me, twisted my arm behind my back and forced me out of the stand, and into a small room, where they kicked shit out of me for 'kicking a copper in the back'.....and then threw me in a cage until the end of the game when they let myself and the others in the cage go home.

Ive never been so scared in my life....but I learned then what they were about. Hated them ever since!

They were generally hated, and if not hated, then certainly distrusted, by pretty much everyone where I grew up, and viewed as a state milita, and a law unto themselves

Can't quite say I hate them, but I still wouldn't trust them as far as I could thrown them. Bizzies be bizzyin'.

The thing here is no one set out to kill a few hundred fans.

It was an accident of incompetence.

Describing it as incompetence makes it sound like a sin just of omission. I don't think that's the case: for example, using a stadium with no safety certificate and ignoring the crush in the previous year are sins of commission.

I've just read the David Conn article in full. I would recommend that anyone does.

Best wishes to the families and friends of the victims. They didn't ask to be in this position any more than their loved ones asked to be crushed to death simply by going to watch a football match.

They have fought against intransigence, dishonesty and prejudice for 27 years - they are not 'professional' campaigners or people looking to make a point just for the thrill of it. Given the choice they would much rather just have their loved ones alive than achieve a 'victory' at an inquest 27 years on - this is the point - they never had a choice in all this.

They can take some solace from the fact that football matches are now infinitely safer in this country and nothing on this scale has happened since - I hope that brings some comfort at least.

If one more dim bulb shows up and says "ooh, there shouldn't be a criminal prosecution when no-one meant to kill people, I'm going to staple the Wikipedia entry for "manslaughter" onto their forehead

Theresa May has just delivered a very powerful statement in the HoC, Burnham responding now.

Yeah but if no one meant to kill anyone so how can it be murder? 😈

re Ch Supt David Duckenfield and the he has been tried for manslaughter point. The jury did not reach a verdict the matter was left to lie on the file so it is simply an application to reopen the proceedings not a bar to prosecution , He has not been acquitted as no verdict was ever reached . In any event autras fois aquit / double jeopardy is not a conclusive bar to proceedings in manslaughter cases.

I've just read the David Conn article in full. I would recommend that anyone does.

I just have. Sobering doesn't even come close to describing it.

re Ch Supt David Duckenfield and the he has been tried for manslaughter point. The jury did not reach a verdict the matter was left to lie on the file so it is simply an application to reopen the proceedings not a bar to prosecution , He has not been acquitted as no verdict was ever reached . In any event autras fois aquit / double jeopardy is not a conclusive bar to proceedings in manslaughter cases.

Thanks, didn't appreciate that.

Respect to him for giving evidence. I assumed he'd done so because the failed prosecution protected him from prosecution after providing evidence against himself IYSWIM. Obviously not.

Respect to him for giving evidence.

Yeh, top lad, pat on the back David, tough life on that final salary pension.

🙄

give it a rest mate.

Well, if you prefer me to put a negative spin on it it's a crazy error of judgement which further proves what a **** he is.

I dont understand why so many people with and without tickets were still trying to get in after the game had started. That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

Have you ever been to a football match

I dont understand why so many people with and without tickets were still trying to get in after the game had started. That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

You do understand that unticketed supporters were not held to be a reason for the tragedy?

You also understand that the start of the game could have easily been delayed if the police had pulled their finger out?

That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

The jury says you're wrong.

I dont understand why so many people with and without tickets were still trying to get in after the game had started. That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

Yeah! And they were all drunk as well!

You are Kelvin Mackenzie and I claim my large envelope of cash to pay for information from Senior Police Officers

The tragic events were unfolding well before KO, and the match was stopped only after a couple of minutes.

replacing the previous gallons of beer,

Yeah! And they were all drunk as well!

Explain?

SYP'S current chief constable has just been suspended following the verdict...

I dont understand why so many people with and without tickets were still trying to get in after the game had started. That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

What's your objective here outofbreath?

This is the conclusion of the most expensive public enquiry in UK history, what is your personal objective? Why (with no understanding insight or enquiry) are you seemingly determined to try and question the outcome?

consider me perplexed.

I dont understand why so many people with and without tickets were still trying to get in after the game had started. That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

There was already sufficient evidence in the form of queuing fans at around half two that an experienced match commander could see they weren't going to all get in in an orderly manner before kickoff. The decision to delay kickoff could have been made then. This was not taken. The game kicked off at 15:00 which in itself makes fans who would have been queueing outside for a considerable period more likely to hurry in once gates are opened - no-one wants to miss the game.

This got to me

It was then that I caught the eye of a policeman just the other side of the fence. It was an unmistakable, meaningful moment: because for four or five seconds, across the heads of scores of people, we looked each other in the eye.

I lost him when [b]I mouthed the words, "Help us." He smiled to himself and shook his head at me, and walked on[/b], a little uncertainly.

At that point I thought: "We've been left to die." Many people already had. People bigger than me, smaller than me, and smarter than me were gone. Now it was my turn.

I dont understand why so many people with and without tickets were still trying to get in after the game had started. That is the critical event that triggered the tragic events that followed.

outofbreath - Member

replacing the previous gallons of beer,

Yeah! And they were all drunk as well!

Explain?

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm ]this might help[/url]

Anyway... back on topic again.... Andy Burnham* sounded genuinely angry. As well he might. Its all coming out now, isn't it? So it now seems that SYP having formally apologised, then as good as threw that apology back in the faces of the families, and basically carried on with the same lines.... the fans were drunk. They broke down the gate. It was their own fault. No blame could be laid at the door of the Police.

To say that that was a somewhat insensitive thing to do is understating things massively. It was an out and out insult! Piled on top of all the other insults. It defies belief that they would take that tack. It betrays an incredible institutional arrogance, and a total contempt for the families of the victims. They maintained this right until the end! I think the people responsible for that should be held accountable for that, at the very least. I'm glad he has been suspended. He should be sacked!

* I have an incredible amount of respect for Andy and what he's done. And I know I'm not alone in that. I doubt this would have ever taken place without his determination to see this enquiry put in place. He wouldn't let it go. And yesterdays verdict was a vindication of all his work. Andy knows a thing or two on the subject. I went to my first match with him (Everton v West Ham at Goodison) when we were about 9 or 10. He knows full well what it was actually like on the terraces back then. Not your usual politicians eye view from the corporate entertainment section. He's a proper fanatical lifelong fan.

Lets be honest here, how many of us believed the official version in the days and weeks following the tragedy? I'll hold my hand up and admit it.
It took a long while for the truth to start to gain a credible foothold in the public mind and many believed the official version for years.
We have to look at the time of the event and understand how football fans - and Liverpool fans in particular - where seen by wider society at the time.
We all grew up seeing tv reports of mass violence at matches every weekend, the game had a very unsavoury reputation for years, then Heysel happened.
I remember being in my local pub that night, the landlord was a fanatical Liverpool fan and his frothing, screaming rage during the game, with yells of "i hope a thousand of you b******s die" really turned my stomach. The people i worked with where also football fans, the songs they sung, the horrendous hatred of people based on which town they were from formed my loathing of football and it's culture that still echoes today.
It's that social background that created the situation where people were only too ready to believe the terrible claims from the police and the media.
The truth came out in fits and starts, my views changed as the truth became known and the full scope of the cover up became knwn.
I doubt i'm the only one, many of us must have felt similarly.

I suppose i'm trying to show how easy it was to plant the official version in the public mind.

Quite right Muddydwarf, as Binners mentioned Peter Hitchens who I subsequently quoted, we were all/ mostly taken in.

Sure, it's easy to understand how in the pre-Internet days people were manipulated by the media. It still happens now, it's just that there's Social Media and other outlets where they can be called out for it.

The uncomfortable truth though is, even if the police were in the right, even if the claims about drunken fans were true, the only subtext you can infer from this is that it was all ok because the fans [i]deserved to die.[/i] The overt contempt in that letter on an earlier page is nauseating; it basically says, what do you expect, they were just drunken Scousers.

It's no surprise we're in a situation today where the ruling classes are systematically destroying everything that's important to everyone else. It's all we deserve. The class-centric rot is endemic, I'll be amazed if there's not a civil uprising before the decade is out. Dogs and cats, living together.

It's incredible to see how pervasive and endemic the victim blaming culture in this country is. Some of that is here to see on this thread, some from people who are thoughtful and have realised they were taken in by it, both at the time and since, others who seem to still believe it even after the truth has come out.

It wasn't called spin back then but the alternative narrative = lies, that were put out seem to have been eagerly swallowed up by large parts of the country. Leading (amongst many other things) to the creation of the whinging scouser label - maybe people can now appreciate why we've been 'whinging' all this time...

We should remember the atmosphere at football matches in those days pretty hostile added to crowded terraces with a lot of pushing and shoving, as per all the letters which have come out and prior incidents it was sadly a tragedy waiting to happen. Yes the story printed was "believable" that's why they printed it.

For those that want to do something about the press please consider getting involved with Hacked Off [url= http://hackinginquiry.org ]link[/url]

Sure, it's easy to understand how in the pre-Internet days people were manipulated by the media.

I don't think it has got any better, in fact the modern media spends far less on investigative journalism than in the past, lies and half truths go unchecked even further than before, it is this gap in credible journalism that allows the likes of Trump and Farage to get away with spouting any bullshit they want. How wikileaks were allowed to be destroyed by daring to reveal criminality of power.

The modern media are far more "on message" than ever before, and the few questioning voices are swept aside in the tidal wave of conformity.

it was sadly a tragedy waiting to happen

have you heard the verdict - fans completely exonerates and fans unlawfully killed everything was the result of poor police decisions and poor choice of a stadium. All of it avoidable none of it to do with fans. It was neither inevitable nor their fault.

I am not sure how it can be made any clearer that it had **** all to do with fans or clear enough for some to grasp a fact that is simple and clearly made.
WHilst one could forgive[ possibly] an initial and short lived view that it was violent [ first few minutes watching but even then its clear they are not fighting]but , to argue it now, after this verdict, is as disgusting as it is at odds with the facts.Callous and stupid and more of the hurtful lies the 96 and their brave families have had to deal with for 28 years
Please stop blaming fans for what happened it was not their fault we all know this and we all knwo who was to blame

CLue: the lying bastard who covered up their incompetence

the few questioning voices are swept aside in the tidal wave of conformity.

That's probably true in the "real" world, but I'm pretty certain it's not online. The connected world, the next generation which is coming up behind me, aren't standing for this shit. And it's only going to grow. That if nothing else gives me hope for the future, that minority is going to become the majority and that's going to be a problem for trad.media and the toffs.

We live in interesting times.

Jamba, you might want to read the post above yours and then try again.

Re criminal charges..two aspects to this. The possibility of Charges stemming from the initial negligence, but also a much wider series of charges against the subsequent conspirators who sought to cover it up. Offences like Perjury, fraud, perverting the course of justice must all be possible against a much wider group of people than just the on site commanders.

Newsnight last night was talking of 2seperate but linked investigations ongoing into these 2 separate aspects.

been quiet at work today, so i have sat a read most of this thread.....i now wish i had not.

old enough to remember the sad day. also old enough to remember football in the 70's and 80's. spent a lot of time at football, which i now regret.
some football fans acted like animals, hence the reason for caging them in. a wrong thing to do in hindsight, but one deemed a good one then.

in my eyes and mind, which may be wrong, football itself caused this tragedy. most people will not agree with this. most people like football, i hate it.
the behaviour of fans brought in the cages, without the cages this would not have happened.

the blame culture of today is now looking for someone to pin it on. a sad tragic accident that was caused by a sport and it's fans.
who will get the blame in the end?

and when they get the blame and it ends in court, maybe a prison sentence?
the liverpool fans who were sentenced after the Heysal tragedy got 3 years each. we tend not to hear much about this event anymore.
another sad tragedy caused by a sport and it's fans.

It wasn't an accident! It might have been unintended, but it wasn't an accident.

It was a foreseeable, preventable tragedy which happened because of the negligence of the people who were supposed to be responsible for people's safety.

Haven't read all the posts. Some people will never believe the truth. I started supporting Liverpool when I was seven. I'm now fifty. I've found the last day really moving. On radio 5 yesterday they replayed the commentary and reporting of that day. Dusty room time.

muddydwarf - Member

Lets be honest here, how many of us believed the official version in the days and weeks following the tragedy? I'll hold my hand up and admit it.

I remember my dad turned to me, when it was on the TV, and just said "Don't believe a *ing word of it". Only time I ever heard him swear near us, I think.

Watching the speeches and hearing the singing just now, I just thought, that's dignity, that's *ing righteous... What an example, how do you stand up in the face of that, and be a **** about it? it's like watching someone walk into a fire and not burn.

all those involved and lied , altered the truth or did nothing your time is near, hopefully youll face a trial, and be prosecuted as alesson to all those who followed your teachings.

the blame culture of today is now looking for someone to pin it on. a sad tragic accident that was caused by a sport and it's fans.
who will get the blame in the end?

most people will not agree with this. most people like football, i hate it.

I hate it too. However,

the blame culture of today is now looking for someone to pin it on.

No. The families of the victims have been doggedly pursuing justice for a quarter of a century. Really, you think this is a recent thing?

i have sat a read most of this thread

No offence bud, as I hold you in high regard, but you should probably do that again or you're going to look silly.

While I don't agree with Ton's conclusions there is validity in what he says. Football was in a terrible state and I wonder if the cover-up would have succeeded had the lies told by the police not been so easily believable. Likewise if they hadn't been fences, again due to the nature of football crowds at the time, there would almost certainly been fewer victims. But ultimately if the police have followed their previous practice, no one would likely have died and that was wrong. This was massively exacerbated by the cover-up that led to the need for redress for the families to clear their loved ones names - which hopefully they are almost at the end of the road to receiving.