[Closed] Hillsborough - Unlawful Killing.

Ok so people lying about what happened, when does that become unlawful killing ?

FFS, It "becomes" unlawful killing, when you let a jury look over ALL the evidence, for two years, and that is the verdict that is arrived at.

Feel free to question it, but unless you have looked at all the same evidence as those jurors, your opinion doesn't mean anything at all I'm afraid (and you risk looking like a disrespectful tool)

Just going to leave this here.

[img] [/img]

You also have to take into account that the same police force were responsible for [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave ]this[/url], so its fair to say that they had quite a bit of form for the industrial scale fabrication of evidence, and the creation of a culture of impunity where they thought they could do whatever the **** they liked, with no comeback

Jesus some of the comments on here are absolutely ridiculous. Fortunately we don't live in a society where the proper test for criminal and/or moral responsibility for death is one solely of whether or not there was intent. If you've never heard of the concept of negligence then go and look it up and stop embarrassing yourself, on a cycling forum of all places.

#JFT96

[i]A load of unfortunate circumstances[/i]

no, a load of specific decisions were made by people who's job it was to ensure this exact event didn't occur.

It wasn't 'circumstances' it was errors, repeated and unforced.

And even while people were dying in the ground the people in charge refused to accept it was happening and kept allowing more people into the tunnel.

It was a ****ing omnishambles and there were people who were legally responsible to make sure it didn;t happen - they failed, utterly and completely to discharge their duties effectively and then spent 25 years lying, cheating and using the court system to try and make sure their personal failures did not come to light. They manipulated a willing press to blame the victims (there's still people on this thread who think somehow the fans were to blame).

Enough of this 'oh it was just one of those things that happen'. No it wasn't or as you say, it would have happened everywhere. But iut didn't.

*This* club and *those* senior police officers ****ed up so badly 96 people died. It was an accident only to the extent that it wasn't the intended outcome but the opportinuties to prevent it were there and those in charge failed to make the right decisions before the day and on it.

FunkyDunc - Member

Ok so people lying about what happened, when does that become unlawful killing ?

It doesn't- they're 2 different but wholly connected things. First people were unlawfully killed, then there was a criminal conspiracy to hide it.

You must ask yourself though, why the criminal conspiracy, if there was nothing to hide? Unless you think they did it for a laugh, or for the practice.

was any other stadium / setup different at that time, I doubt it. A load of unfortunate circumstances led to an outcome.

I don't disagree with anything said, I just think that it could have been any ground, any where in the UK at that time. Unfortunately it took the tragedy for things to change

If thats the case, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country?

It happened because of the negligence and incompetence of a police force that didn't seem particularly bothered about the safety of people they clearly regarded as scum. They still don't seem bothered today.

How many drivers that kill cyclists go out that day with the intention of doing so? Are they all just tragic accidents too?

Some of the deluded nonsense on here today makes for depressing reading.

The police neglected their duty of care to the fans, that's what they are there for, that's what they are paid to do. They herded the fans into the pen with no consideration for their well being & as a consequence the police actions overcrowded that pen & were a major factor in the death of 96 innocent football fans, normal people enjoying a day out at the match. how is that hard to understand?

A load of patently f'ing obvious circumstances that were easily foreseeable at the time and not just in hindsight.

If thats the case, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country?

In fairness, and with the experience of being a football watcher at that time, those circumstances were not particularly different to many other grounds, and were either not realised or ignored at them as well.

Whether other grounds were better policed, or just 'luckier' I don't know; I certainly have been in some horribly frightening crushes myself. The facts remain, the ground wasn't safe, the policing of the ground was negligent, and on this particular day those failures had catastrophic consequences. The fact that the police in this case were 'unlucky' because their failings caused this outcome is immaterial.

If there's a legacy to this it's that grounds are now far safer than they were. But that's some small comfort today.

My Dad distinctly remembers being in a similar squeeze situation at Hillsborough around the time.

I remember being involved in one as recent as 3 years ago at London Road (P'boro) mainly caused by the fact the terrace was accessed from the side and people don't filter all the way down, thankfully this stand has been changed.

If thats the case,, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country

To be fair binners, the number of travelling fans to cup semi finals changes this slightly. Larger numbers, unfamiliar surroundings, Liverpool wouldn't have took that many fans to Sheffield Wednesday away as a league game.

I just don't know what rehabilitation will occur by locking any of those responsible up.

The guilty might repent their ways?

It also sends a clear signal to the current Police that unlawful killing and conspiracy / corruption won't be tolerated.

sorry - rereading, unlucky isn't really conveying what i mean. Illustrate -

If you speed round a corner on the wrong side and hit a car coming the other way - you've been clearly a major contributor to the outcome.

If you speed round a corner on the wrong side and don't hit a car coming the other way because he's 10 seconds later / not there at all - you've done the same but got away with it. You can call it lucky / unlucky, the incident and situation were the same but the outcome is different but avoidable if you hadn't sped round the corner in the first place.

The fact other grounds may have escaped a serious incident by pure luck is immaterial. This time, it went wrong and they were directly at fault for part of that. Just because others may have acted the same at other grounds with a different outcome, makes no odds.

To be fair binners, the number of travelling fans to cup semi finals changes this slightly.

...which happens every year.

Many many factors at play here, not least the unintended consequences of fences between the pitch and the stands and a failure to force such an incident. I too remember my first football match in the mid 70's bl--dy dangerous in hindsight and that was before the fences.

If thats the case, how come it wasn't happening every week, at grounds up and down the country?

Don't forget they'd already been people killed at Ibrox (twice) and Bradford in the UK, plus Heyesl. So it's fair to say stadium disasters in old badly designed stadium were already occurring.

I just don't know what rehabilitation will occur by locking any of those responsible up.

As for still blaming the fans for being there and crushing folk

FFS you look both stupid - there has just been a judgment on that - and also heartless and contemptible

The victims were not responsible and going down that route is what has led to 20 years of hurt, deceit, lies and outright deception from the police and other agents of the state

Even now some folk are still trying to argue this

Distasteful as it is wrong.

In fairness, and with the experience of being a football watcher at that time, those circumstances were not particularly different to many other grounds,

As with so many disasters, it was a combination of individual errors and failings by a whole host of different people which added together to produce the outcome on the day. I'm not sure about pursuing individuals for their part in a wider failure, although there may be a couple who have a more significant case to answer. You could pursue SYP 'corporately', but I imagine it would be another decade of legal blind alleys and I'd rather that energy/money was put into further work on stadium and public event safety.

What does get my goat is the subsequent cover-up and smear. Those police officers who initiated and participated knowingly in that deception should get their day in court.

Does it Ransos?

Liverpool, and their supporters are in the FA cup semi finals, at Hillsborough, and are allocated the Leppings lane end?

Using your thought process, this makes Hillsborough Safe, and also the police who control the situation safe, as it's never happened to them before. Therefore the only variable is the fans? Are you saying the fans were at fault?!

Football fans of the day were (and still are) treat with contempt. The grounds were unsafe, the police made unsafe choices, there are any amount of contributing factors.

How much training do you think your average steward in the ground had? There was a documentary on tv that exposed the Sunderland stewards as blokes who just wanted to get into the match for nowt.

Not a believer in the afterlife but I'll suspend that for a while in the hope that Anne Williams is somewhere looking at all of this saying "I ****ing told you so."

Odd time for you to become a bleeding heart liberal interested in the rights of the criminal rather than the victim
What happened to hang em high wrecker?

STILL some scumbags trying to blame the victims. Classy.

Does it Ransos?

Liverpool, and their supporters are in the FA cup semi finals, at Hillsborough, and are allocated the Leppings lane end?

Using your thought process, this makes Hillsborough Safe, and also the police who control the situation safe, as it's never happened to them before. Therefore the only variable is the fans? Are you saying the fans were at fault?!

Football fans of the day were (and still are) treat with contempt. The grounds were unsafe, the police made unsafe choices, there are any amount of contributing factors.

How much training do you think your average steward in the ground had? There was a documentary on tv that exposed the Sunderland stewards as blokes who just wanted to get into the match for nowt.

It is a fact that the Cup semi-finals happen every year, and that means a large number of fans at an unfamiliar ground. I made no other point, and your attempt to suggest I was in any way blaming the fans is cheap and nasty.

I typed out a long piece in response to some commentators on this thread, then decided it served no real purpose other than perhaps as a vehicle for my own opinions. Which on a day like today, are of no consequence.

I hope today can be the start of something more positive to all those poor people who lost loved ones, simply because they went to watch a football match.

I had not seen that letter from Ingham before.

I thought I couldn't be shocked about anything that awful man said any more.

I was wrong

[i]What does get my goat is the subsequent cover-up and smear. Those police officers who initiated and participated knowingly in that deception should get their day in court.[/i]

Indeed....and its also the fact that those people who have lost their nearest and dearest have had to put up with the years of having their memory tarnished...wrongly!

Will it stop the copper here being a lying bastard...who knows but , as you know, its not just about rehabilitation or we would let every "crime of passion" off.

Do you think the guilty deserved to be punished for their crime?

yes or no?

I think it may well make other coppers think about covering shit up if they lie in the future.

Odd to argue that any sentence that wont rehabilitate should not be imposed. I have never seen you argue that - or anyone lese for that matter.

[i]I had not seen that letter from Ingham before.[/i]

He clearly came to the conclusion that we had an honest Police force and backed them up.

I thought I couldn't be shocked about anything that awful man said any more.

he still refuses to apologise!

jekkyl - Member
*not infering any point of view*
Did lots of fans turn up without tickets (after being warned not to) or not?

No, they didn't. That's part of the lies - the deliberate ,manufactured lies - that those responsible for the care of people at that match began manufacturing to cover their own arses. Lies that they invented, and then perpetuated my falsifying and modifying statements, passing lies about drunken ticketless fans to the press, and perjuring themselves in court for years. Lies that are still in the ears and minds of lots of people 27 years later. But the jury today dismissed them as exactly that - lies. Clear verdict is that there was no behaviour by the fans that contributed.

As for people doing time - Duckenfield, the bloke in charge that day, did exactly **** all, despite having seen several previous crushes and near incidents, and never bothered to familiarise himself with any of the aspects of his job that might have prevented the disaster. He was criminally negligent. Does he deserve time for that? Matter of opinion. But the years of conspiracy and obstruction of justice that followed the negligence are a criminal matter, without doubt. Sadly, the families will have to go through years more in court before they see justice for that.

It's not like there wasn't a warning

[url= https://hotspurhq.com/2012/09/12/the-hillsborough-disaster-in-1981-it-could-have-been-tottenham/ ]FA Cup Semi 1981[/url]

true that
the errors at the time may be a catalogue of human errors that , whilst avoidable , were not criminal

What they did afterwards was as criminal, reprehensible and actually hurt the legacy of the victims and their families and they did it to cover their own arses.

Yes those ****s deserve punishment

Do you think the guilty deserved to be punished for their crime?

yes or no?

I think it may well make other coppers think about covering shit up if they lie in the future.

Great post by honorablegeorge up there
The HSE have got a few people imprisoned for criminal negligence now, it's certainly a piece of legislation with teeth.

I'm amazed how damning the jury's verdict is. There's nothing that does not come down on the side of the fans is there? Police, ambulance, stadium, engineers all ****ed up. Police to the degree that it was criminal. Wow. That's a pretty deep cover up for 27 years.

Since we've stuck inghams letter up, boris johnsons is worth a look too. Horrible.

@Ransos

It is a fact that the Cup semi-finals happen every year, and that means a large number of fans at an unfamiliar ground. I made no other point, and your attempt to suggest I was in any way blaming the fans is cheap and nasty.

Apologies, it was not intended that way, my point being that once you remove the police and their subsequent cover up actions, this was eventually going to happen. It could have been any of the clubs who take a large amount of fans away with them.

Football grounds have changed for a reason, and it wasn't for the comfort of the fans. It's something I feel passionate about.

I had not seen that letter from Ingham before.

He clearly came to the conclusion that we had an honest Police force and backed them up.

The South Yorkshire Police force effectively acted as paramilitary militia for Ingham and his master during the miners strike. I wouldn't have expected much in the way of criticism. That in itself will have helped develop their culture of impunity, given that the government were happy to let them beat the shit out of people they didn't like, then fabricate evidence on an industrial scale to fit them up, en masse.

[url= http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/margaret-thatcher-aide-sir-bernard-3420040 ]Bernhard Ingham is a truly despicable human being[/url]

I thought that prison was a very ineffective deterrent? I have certainly seen that rationale used on here anyway.

The change of being caught and convicted is the more effective as a deterrent and the sentence length.

If we let them walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist, it basically tells all current serving Police that they can lie as much as they like and get away with it.

I was one of the people who 'bought' the lies hook, line and sinker. I like to think I am a relatively sensible person, but the original impression given stayed with me. In my defence I was only 11 at the time of the disaster - i.e. old enough to be aware of the news, but not old enough to really question it. I then spent a long time just assuming what I thought was true was true. To my shame it took until about 3-4 years ago for me to really have a look at what was going on and what had happened. I was ashamed at some of the things I had thought in the past and felt pretty stupid.

The way things were around football in the 80's, this type of thing was pretty much bound to happen. The actions of hooligans [u]had[/u] led to the need for perimeter fencing - I don't think anyone can deny that, but the 'perfect storm' was Hillsborough.

A crap, dilapidated and dangerous stadium, a big game with full attendance and inept policing all combined to create an awful disaster.

Truly and awfully terrible, but not malicious.

What came after is the unforgiveable bit. Pillorying innocent families who had lost loved ones, lying, changing statements, putting all the blame back on the fans because the police were too arrogant to accept any blame. They knew they were wrong, but their attitude of "we made mistakes, but we are the only people who can be the police, so we must keep our jobs". Also notwithstanding the desire to retire on a nice pension.

To keep up the pretence for so long, to let family members go to their graves not knowing the truth and to treat grieving people with such contempt is just beyond the pale.

We all know the feeling. You cock something up at work for example and the opportunity to let someone else carry the can is there. Many would be tempted. A few would do it. But to keep it up for nearly 30 years when you are dealing with 96 deaths is despicable.

eddie11 - Member

Since we've stuck inghams letter up, boris johnsons is worth a look too. Horrible.

FWIW, Johnson was the editor, Simon Heffer wrote the article, at Johnson's request. And Johnson at least apologised (under duress, but still). I don't believe Heffer ever has. He seemed quite pleased to claim responsibility tbh. But then, he is a terrorist, terrorists like claiming responsibility for the damage they cause.

Not very important, this, but I figure we should keep the fantasy to one side of the argument, it keeps things simpler.

If we let them walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist, it basically tells all current serving Police that they can lie as much as they like and get away with it.

Dannyh, you're pretty much on the money for me.