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[Closed] Hi fi - "clean" mains

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Value For Money?

Oh, right, well...

Del - Member

and i bet it gives you a real VFM feeling when a stereo comes in lots of boxes...

Not particularly no, but as soon as I had assembled my final setup, I appreciated how much one has to spend to achieve that level of excellence. It's a heavy financial commitment, but I am glad I made it. :mrgreen:


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 5:55 pm
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Not only surprised at hearing of Crimson amps but a Logic DM101 turntable!
That takes me back about 30 years.

Any (former) Townshend Rock owners about?


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 6:52 pm
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Not particularly no, but as soon as I had assembled my final setup, I appreciated how much one has to spend to achieve that level of excellence. It's a heavy financial commitment, but I am glad I made it.

You'd think with spending all that money you'd have learned that putting your speakers in the corner of a room is going to exaggerate the bass and make it boomy.

Maybe you could have saved some of that financial commitment by placing the speakers properly. 😉


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:00 pm
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The speakers are not "in the corner of the room", but standing out into the room by 18" from the back and 20" from the side, within the parameters recommended by ProAc in the accompanying brochure.

No "boom", either.


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:26 pm
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Oh, I've just noticed the 😉 - irony, I presume...


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:27 pm
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It's still not really about the actual music tho, is it? 😉


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:29 pm
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No? What's it about, then?


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:31 pm
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It's really about the gear.

If you look deep into your heart, and I don't expect you to admit it publically, it's really about the things on the shelves. It's about the position of the speakers, about the cables, about the equipment.

...and that's ok.

Really, it's ok, and nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

Be nice if people could be honest, and say they have all that kit because they want it, not because it sounds any better.


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:37 pm
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It's really about the gear.

If you look deep into your heart, and I don't expect you to admit it publically, it's really about the things on the shelves. It's about the position of the speakers, about the cables, about the equipment.

I've already said that the point of the technology is to deliver the music as true to the original sound source as possible, but let's be generous and assume that you missed it.

The reason to want the kit is that it sounds better, that seems obvious but apparently not to you.

http://www.rollingstone.com/ne...ath_of_high_fidelity


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:46 pm
 JCL
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Passive mains devices are BS. Active regeneration works but you pay for it.

"Because?"

To regulate the waveform. A number of scientific measuring devices use regenerators for this reason. Electrical supply is only required to be at an average 110/240V over a 24H period and can deviate by quite large amounts.


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:53 pm
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Oooh sorry,I seem to have touched a nerve!

It's like my bike; I did my best racing on a 21lb gas pipe aluminium bike that didn't really fit that well. Now I potter about on a 16lb carbon wonder bike because I can. I have it because I want it, because I can, not because it makes the riding any better.

Denial, not just a river in Egypt... 😉


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 7:59 pm
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Al, before you fitter money away fixing your mains, i'd check they are noisy, no point putting the horse before the cart....

and then if you find then are polluted you have two options, filtration, or regeneration. If your budget is tight only one of those is a real option and if that's the case then tootle over the hifiwigwam and pm 'earl of sodbury' he has a little company called witchwood audionics and makes bespoke filters for less than the cost of a reach-round from Russ Andrews.


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 8:55 pm
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Hold on... let me get this right... people actually pay good money for mains conditioning their hi-fi, which will have perfectly good power supplies in anyway?

Excellent... my PhD might not be wasted after all...

:o)

Now to just make up some marketing bollo... ooops, spiel, about how good matrix converters are for hi-fi!


 
Posted : 20/10/2009 9:25 pm
 jond
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>Hold on... let me get this right.

You obviously missed the interconnect thread - *this* was the more sensible one (just) 😉


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:12 am
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I've already said that the point of the technology is to deliver the music as true to the original sound source as possible, but let's be generous and assume that you missed it.

No it isn't, otherwise you'd be using studio monitors - not components which 'warm' (i.e. distort) the sound! 🙂


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 6:40 am
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Passive mains filters do work. A capacitative inductive (LC) network in the mains lead connection will remove much, but not all, mains carried interference. I have built my own and fitted them inside equipment and it used to be possible to buy a "potted" version but a quick web search led me here

and if you look you'll see that there are three capacitors, one across the mains live and neutral and one from each mains line to earth and there is an inductoron each line to kill high frequencies carried on the mains.

I used one on an amplifier I built when it proved to be very sensitive to the fridge switching on and off.

Unfortunately, however, some equipment is very sensitive to radio frequencies and this will not stop that. Every time you switch anything off and cause a spark you are broadcasting a bunch of RF energies and it may not be mains borne noise you are getting. Getting rid of that can be a real problem, as hi-fi designers build things in nice clean environments.

If your hi-fi kit has any motors in it (Cassette player for instance) the motor itself can generate noise and I've had to fit capacitors to motors before now to reduce the crackle they cause.

Sorry for the lecture - I was back in University mode, from when I took my electronics degree.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 7:21 am
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It's still not really about the actual music tho, is it

Of course it's about music. That's why concert halls are designed, to great cost and effort, to get the best acoustics possible. I would much rather hear a concert at the Bridgewater hall, than down the road at the horrible student venue, The Academy. You could hear exactly the same concert at those two venues, but what you are hearing and therefore the music, would be totally different.
Music is about enjoyment and sparking emotions in you, which it does by sound, so getting it to sound as good as you can is totally about the music.
I am sure the original poster didn't expect sensible answers posting on here though.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 8:02 am
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Just crank tha bass up, innit


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 8:36 am
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[url= http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html ]More Belting Tips[/url]

such gems as: "After freezing two batteries, insert them into the remote control and listen to some music for a short time. Then replace the (treated) batteries with the untreated batteries and see if you can listen to the same music with the same pleasure as before !! "

at this point I realised he never meant this to be taken seriously and it was all an elaborate wind up :o)


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 8:52 am
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Music is about enjoyment and sparking emotions in you, which it does by sound, so getting it to sound as good as you can is totally about the music.

I would say for exactly the same reasons the sound [b]itself[/b] hardly matters :o)


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 9:14 am
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I've already said that the point of the technology is to deliver the music as true to the original sound source as possible

I bet my £250 powered studio monitors in a properly acoustically treated room sound more true to the original sound source than thousands of pounds worth of amps and speakers in a room that's probably full of horrible modes and standing waves.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 9:19 am
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Can I ask again, how does mains noise manifest itelf in a transistor based set up? Can I literally hear it, or is somebody here saying it affects the function of the equipment?


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 9:41 am
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Why do dullards & trolls like SBF have to ruin threads like this? can't you leave room for rational debate without bringing idiots like PWB into it along with your "eloquence". Imo these guys and you are very alike - just different slants on aspberger's syndrome.

OK there's plenty of Nimrods out there selling snake oil - please don't associate them with me. I understand some electronics, EM stuff and have studies acoustics and MSc level and Physics at uni. I have designed loudspeakers and sold hi fi for a living - I guess that leaves me completely unqualified cos I don't have an engineering degree?

crikey - Member
It's really about the gear.

If you look deep into your heart, and I don't expect you to admit it publically, it's really about the things on the shelves. It's about the position of the speakers, about the cables, about the equipment.

...and that's ok.

Really, it's ok, and nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

Be nice if people could be honest, and say they have all that kit because they want it, not because it sounds any better.

Bullsh*t. Please don't make assumptions about me. PLENTY of people on here have bling bikes and no doubr bling hifi - my bikes are pretty plain and are built to offer fun & value - because I enjoy the riding, while I can also appreciate the design & engineering. Same for my hifi - it's a means to enjoy the music. If you can't appreciate that spending money on well chosen hi fi enhances your enjoyment of music then youshouldn't be on this thread.

Can someone close it please? Thanks for any helpful comments btw 😀


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 9:45 am
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Why do dullards & trolls like SBF have to ruin threads like this?

is it ruined? I thought it was hilarious! I can't get enough of hifi twaddle - setting aside the amount of money wasted it really just so very funny :o) I see no difference between it and the frequent crank length debates where 5mm of extra length totally changes the ride...


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 9:49 am
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I'm worried for these guys.....what music would we suggest to chill them out?


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 9:52 am
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cynic-al... I don't think anyone is questioning that spending money on [b]well[/b] chosen hi-fi equipment won't make a difference to how it sounds, more that people are questioning whether such things as a mains filters, or in the other thread different cables, really do make the differences that are ascribed to them...

Is this another one of those things which is not measurable, but can still be heard?

And while mains filters are very real things, which do filter the mains, the question remains as to whether this makes any difference at all to a hi-fi plugged into a domestic mains socket.

Unless of course the equipment designers are being really sneaky and putting really bad power supplies in their kit, that are affected by the normal levels of distortion/noise on a mains feed, so that people then have to go out and buy 'mains cleaners'.

Oh and bugger... I find myself agreeing with SFB again... and I don't like doing that! 😉


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 10:18 am
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My main criticisms of "hifi" are:
a) it's been amply demonstrated that people like some even order harmonic distortion (ie valve sound), so attempting "fidelity" is misplaced
b) as soon as you start listening to the sound rather than the music you are missing the point of its creation, which is the mysterious way music taps directly into our emotions and memories - by analogy, the first few minutes of a film with subtitles are very annoying, but if the film is any good you stop noticing you're reading the dialogue, and the font and colour of the text become irrelevant

And exactly similarly, I find the obsession with bicycle parts fatuous when it's [b]riding[/b] that is fun. All I want from a bike is for it to work, and effectively disappear (like the subtitles)


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 10:30 am
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Unless of course the equipment designers are being really sneaky and putting really bad power supplies in their kit, that are affected by the normal levels of distortion/noise on a mains feed, so that people then have to go out and buy 'mains cleaners'.

Thing is most folk aren't going to buy an amp with a really good PSU - the likes of DNM etc are considered too esoteric, but their "better" amps change only the PSU IIRC.

SFB - yes you are hilarious, in your own mind, at least.

b) as soon as you start listening to the sound rather than the music you are missing the point of its creation, which is the mysterious way music taps directly into our emotions and memories - by analogy, the first few minutes of a film with subtitles are very annoying, but if the film is any good you stop noticing you're reading the dialogue, and the font and colour of the text become irrelevant

BULLSH*T. A good system (like those I espouse) will enhance enjoyment of the music, giving it life, making silences darker, making individual instruments more focussed and clear etc etc (it's not at all about "clean" sounds like AVI or ATC). Not all of that is about fidelity at all, and I think you are using this thread to make your (dull, oft repeated) points (yet again) even though it does not actually oppose mine. You're just looking for internet-forum pubilicity.

Good luck with that, I'm sure it's great. *awaits "witty quip"*


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 10:40 am
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You're just looking for internet-forum pubilicity.

publicity for what ? Perhaps it has escaped your notice that internet forums are about interaction and entertainment (and some information), and that's what we're doing. We don't have to agree about anything.

Personally I lack the attention span for silences, and like most of my music served up with young women bouncing around scantily clad.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 10:50 am
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Surely the power supply in a component should be at the same quality as the rest of the component, otherwise it's just been badly designed...

So I guess if a hi-fi needs mains filtering then it's an admission that it is badly designed? 😉

Designing a power supply for something like this, that needs a clean mains feed is simply bad power supply design, all the filtering it needs should be built into its input filters, and if the outputs need to be that precisely regulated, then that should be taken care of as well by the design...

The only reason for not having good power supplies is due to companies wanting to keep their costs down, but for kit that is already costing hundreds/thousands it's a bit crap if they can't put in the proper filtering on cost grounds...


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 10:55 am
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cynic-al - you are falling into the trap.

Over the years, 90's mostly, I have bought hi-fi gear that brought improvements that I heard in a shop or at home that was better than what I had. It has got to the stage that I would need to spend £1k+ to get any discernable improvement and I do not wish to pay that. I am 'stuck' with a LP12 / ittok / Dynavector mc / Naim 70/140 / Credo's and Avondale tweaked Arcam cd player. I also put in a specific spur with round pin plugs.

So I know where you are coming with from on hi-fi and you do not need to convince me or say Mr Woppit. SFB (amongst others) is just baiting you so do as I do and page down when you see a response from him and if you must read it do not respond!

Just go and ride your expensive bike round in a big circle and relax;-)


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:25 am
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Classic SFB - if he doesn't understand something or believe in it its is wrong. In SFB world only SFB ideas are true. ( I know this is a bit pot kettle and black) Simon - try to remember that you are not the sole arbiter of what is right and often you are clearly wrong. I try to do this

Clean mains for Hi Fi is a bit at the geeky end IMO and people at the Geeky end of HiFi tend to listen to the equipment not the music. However to tar all with the same brush again is simply wrong. Some hifi geeks do know what they are talking about - not all have million pound systems then play mp3s thru them

However it is simply amazing what differences getting stuff right makes even at the bottom end of real Hi Fi. Correct speaker placement for example makes a huge difference as does decent ( but not thousands of pounds worth) cabling

Many things in HiFi you get into diminishing returns for your money very quickly -to the point where incremental gains are very poor value for money.

To go right back to the beginning - would the best way to have as clean a power source as possible for reasonable outlay not be to run a dedicated spur from the consumer unit?


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:26 am
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SFB - Why should I spend £5k on a camera as opposed to £100?

The image that it captures and the emotions it stirs will be the same, its the eye of the photographer that counts.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:33 am
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just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:42 am
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Personally I lack the attention span for silences

"Personally I'd talk to a turd if I thought it would listen" more like 😡


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:46 am
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I never bother to read sfb's post anymore anyway, as they are invariably dull and repetitive, frequently poorly researched, ill informed and boundlessly pedantic. That may just by my opinion though 🙂


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:48 am
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In SFB world only SFB ideas are true.

this isn't about right or wrong but what people are prepared to believe

SFB (amongst others) is just baiting you

I bait everyone all the time, but I also in include my own homespun philosophical musings.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 11:58 am
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frequently poorly researched

make that [b]always [/b]:o)

SFB - Why should I spend £5k on a camera as opposed to £100?

The image that it captures and the emotions it stirs will be the same, its the eye of the photographer that counts.

With the more expensive camera kit you can feel and measure the improvement, mainly in terms of handling: more frames per second, quicker focussing, better buffering, and, unfortunately, more weight 🙁 In use, the better camera gets the shot I wanted more often. Of course, it's completely wrong to say "its the eye of the photographer that counts" because it's the eye of the person looking at the photo that matters, and what they respond to. For all you know the photographer might have been seeing something completely different for different reasons. I don't say a cheap camera can't take fantastic shots, only that they make it more difficult & unlikely. I don't think the number of pixels matters much.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:09 pm
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Correct speaker placement for example makes a huge difference

Clearly where you place your speakers makes a difference no one is arguing about that are they? To claim someone does not understand because they ridicule you for spending thoudands on propesterous devices (be they anti aging cremes,directional cables, an inductoron (WTF),)that have little measurable benefit does leave you open to gentle ribbing /incredulity at your gullibiilty IMHO.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:09 pm
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SFB - You're arguments for spending more money on kit stacks up about as well as spending money on Hi-fi kit.

Ergo - whatever someone feels passionate about they can find the means to justify. I am slightly inclined to be passionate about both photography and Hi-fi, but neither the OP or your arguments are compelling enough to make me go out and spend lots of money on Hi-fi or Cameras.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:13 pm
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I always thought it was more about the music than the sound. If that wasn't true, live music would have died out years ago.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:16 pm
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"just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong"

You, sir, are clearly in the wrong forum!

Be off with you forthwith.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:18 pm
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I never bother to read sfb's post anymore anyway, as they are invariably dull and repetitive,

I rarely notice who's making a post - I pay attention to the ideas expressed (except that I'm ruder to people I know). Anyone can have a good idea sometimes.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:20 pm
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"Anyone can have a good idea sometimes."

Although Hora does rather stretch 'sometimes' to breaking point.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:22 pm
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SFB - You're arguments for spending more money on kit stacks up about as well as spending money on Hi-fi kit.

The difference in cameras is blatant and can be measured. The hifi twaddle takes a 'golden ear' to detect and does not register on any other known instrument.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:22 pm
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Can a blind person measure them?

You could say that diminishing returns kick in beyond a pin-hole camera.

All in each others opinions of course


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:25 pm
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no more pictures per second is measurable/observable ...clean power source enhancing the experience is a somewhat less well defined measure and open to (as this thread clearly shows) interpretation and differnce of opinion.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:28 pm
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Hi-fi threads certainly rack up the posts, don't they?

For what it's worth, IMO & all that.....

- putting a post on here about this kind of thing is pretty much asking for the responses that have been received - whether you want it or not. Even with the disclaimer in the OP (something about not responding if you don't believe it will make a difference).
- I don't get why people are so bothered about telling hi-fi peeps that this stuff is nonsense/snake oil/waste of money etc. If they wanna spend it, then let them. Can't say I've ever 'listened' to a clean mains supply, but if you reckon it will make a difference then good luck to you. People on here are quick enough to recommend bike equipment/upgrades that would probably have no discernible difference in terms of 'enjoying a ride'.
- I used to be a little bit into hi-fi & buy What Hi-Fi magazine. I seem to remember they quite often recommended a dedicated mains loop if you were connecting up some serious hi-fi. But, normally they'd just recommend that you kept the kit off the same loop as your fridge/washing machine etc.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 12:37 pm
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The most irritating thing about this and the other (directional cable) thread is that some posters seem to simply reiterate arguments that were answered previously without any attempt at developing that particular aspect.

One can only assume that 1: they didn't read it (unlikely, as I have answered the reiterated argument a second time on more than one occasion, only to see the rejoinder used yet again) or 2: they ignore the inconvenient logic and continue the reiteration simply to bait.

Childish, tiresome and patronising. Although I can't express my full emotion in this regard, otherwise I'll be banned for being too rude, apparently.

My conclusion is to simply avoid any further discussions inhabited for a large part, by those who simply wish to repeatedly go "nyaah-nya-na-nyaah-nyaah" (figuratively) as if we were all still in the playground at infant's school.

Out.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 1:15 pm
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Is that what Jesus would want though?


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 1:20 pm
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what like you did in the Christain debate ?

Hoisted up by one's own petard ?
or biblical one just for you

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

perhaps some truth in it after all 😉 😆


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 1:21 pm
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'There are companies that will try to persuade you that there is something wrong with the electrical supply coming into your house or studio. In particular, they will try to tell you that there are all kinds of nasty radio frequency interference (RFI) signals marching down the mains cable, bent on making everything that you record sound 'muddy' or whatever hype word they go for.

99 times out of one hundred, there is absolutly nothing the matter with the power supply and adding some Mickey Mouse box does nothing for you.

The problem (for them) is you already have several devices that are perfect at getting rid of RFI. They are called power supply units and everything has got one!

All equipment runs on direct current. The audio signal may be alternating current (AC) but all electronic equipment uses direct current (DC) internally. The great exception is the Tonwheel assembly of the original Hammond Organ that uses the AC frequency to drive an asynchronous motor invented by Larry Hammond and first used in AC-driven clocks. But that is the only exception that you will find in a modern recording studio.

The incoming AC supply (roughly 230V in Europe and 120V in the US) is turned into the desired DC voltage and current by a device called a power supply unit (PSU). Usually the incoming voltage is reduced by a transformer and then a series of rectifiers and condensers smooth out the voltage to provide the exact value required. In a so-called universal power supply, the reduction is performed by a series of thyristors, but the capacitors are still there.

These transformers and capacitors act as massive low-pass filters. Radio frequencies in the 100kHz and above stand no chance! Also, all quality equipment had little filters known as 'taps' at the beginning and end of all longer signal paths to prevent any RFI bleeding in from outside.

Various forums have seen a spate of UPS - power conditioner - balanced power - and other completely unnecessary power 'cleaner' threads lately.

Let's get this straight, once and for all time -

1. An off-line UPS takes over when the power fails or drops below a certain value. If you are just afraid of the occasional black-out, this will do.

2. An on-line UPS replaces the in-coming power supply with a sine wave at the desired voltage at all times. If you are having REAL problems with your supply (varies wildly and may cut out) then this is the only solution that actually works.

3. Any UPS has to have a capacity of at least 50% more than the equipment to be supplied, if it is not to create more problems than it solves.

4. Balanced power must, by law, be installed by an electrician and be protected by trips for both sides of the balance in both the US and the UK. In the UK, ANY kind of fixed electrical installation must be performed by an electrician. A bodged installation of balanced power is a great way to kill yourself or just destroy your equipment.

5. [b]Most power problems come from poor grounding.[/b] If you are in any kind of doubt, get a multimeter and check that the resistance between neutral and ground is absolutely zero at all outlets. In Europe, the power supply can vary greatly (too much leeway is permitted to the power companies here, IMO) between about 210 and 250 volts. If it is outside those values, complain in writing, after checking with a second multimeter.

Check your grounding and supply, BEFORE you waste money on any kind of boxes! [b]The magic box that somehow solves gounding (aka earthing) problems has not been invented and never will be[/b].'

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/167649-power-thoughts-clean-power-conditioners.html


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 1:32 pm
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Junkyard - Member

what like you did in the Christain debate ?

Hoisted up by one's own petard ?
or biblical one just for you

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

perhaps some truth in it after all

No. Yawn...


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 1:37 pm
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Grumm - don't be bringing that new-fangled science nonsense into this.

As Stumpy says, if someone wants to spent £x on their hifi and it brings them pleasure and they feel that pleasure is worth £x, that's absolutely fine. It's a placebo effect. They probably know themselves that it's a placebo effect but it doesn't matter. They enjoy their listening more and that's all that matters.

If, on the other hand, they attempt to claim [u]as fact[/u] that 'conditioned' mains improves the performance of the equipment, this is nonsense and they shouldn't get too upset when people tell them it's nonsense.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 2:33 pm
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ah Mr woppit you responded like the charming gent you present yourself to be when your own arguments are used against you.
Made me smile some more thanks 8)

Grumm nice try but (like the religous)they wont let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of their genuine belief.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 2:43 pm
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Snoooore...


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 2:44 pm
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OMG.

WTF have I done.

[img] [/img]


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 3:12 pm
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You forgot it was STW


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 3:14 pm
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SfB's comment about not having the attention span for silences and preferring women capering about is most revealing. Pretty much says all you need to know about how much interest he has in quality music. I have several albums which have long silences as an integral part of the music, which I'm sure would drive SfB even more nuts. 😈


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 5:02 pm
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So does John Cage sound better with the amp on or off? 🙂


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 5:18 pm
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I have several albums which have long silences as an integral part of the music

Not so much silence integral to the music but the silences between the tracks on the Cowboy Junkies 'Trinity Session' are pretty impressive. It was recorded in a large church (presumably 'Trinity') with the band sat around a single stereo microphone. The space between the tracks is eerie - you can 'hear' the scale of the building in the silence.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 5:22 pm
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To go right back to the beginning - would the best way to have as clean a power source as possible for reasonable outlay not be to run a dedicated spur from the consumer unit?

initially this sounded vaguely plausible, but in circuit terms, all the mains devices are wired in parallel, and using the parasitic distributed reactance of the mains wiring to the socket as a filter is far more expensive than using a discrete filter to the same effect.

Pretty much says all you need to know about how much interest he has in quality music.

correct! In fact I reject the concept of "quality music" - its function is visceral and emotional, appealing to the inner beast to which quality is meaningless!


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 5:30 pm
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SFB - how can you fail to understand that the comparisson between a £100 camera and a £2000 one is EXACTLY the same as to a piece of hi-fi equipment as all of them have been manufactured!!!! It's the same with anything you buy, be it a watch car blah blah blah!!! I take it photography is you other hobby as you were very quick to express an opinion on it, I apologize if I'm wrong.
The same is with bikes surely, we can have fun on a Halfrauds bike but a £2000 bike WILL work better and perform better even if there aren't any ways to measure only those of a tester or individual themselves.
The "fun" factor along with sonic or visual interpretations are open to subjective feelings so please try and understand that and is applicable not only to hi-fi but many many other hobbies - cycling included.
I don't consider myself an expert in any field and I have an open mind to most things. I try give honest advice regarding any hobby I've done, be it cycling hi-fi photography or shooting but it's always just an opinion. I do appreciate good engineering, being an engineer myself and so when something is "engineered" I can see and feel it, like a good watch for instance. They are almost "alive" as you would put it.
Hi-fi, along with a lot of hobbies as too many merchants trying to make you part with your hard earned cash by spouting bullshit but please don't think hi-fi is on it's own - if you read bike mags etc and read bike manufacturers bull you will know exactly what I mean. I make my judgement on trying stuff, finding out whether I like them or not, be it bikes or hi-fi. I also have restraints - money - so will buy to suit my own needs and I don't care what anyone else spends either. Remember - it's each to his own and like lots of things it's mostly subjective too. I do have an expensive hi-fi - I bought it after listening and using my ears and that's the only thing that matters - it's what I like. Just like my bikes, cars, music, films, watches etc etc.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 5:35 pm
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grumm You on about magnetic fields?
there is truth in that.

regarding Amplifiers
I use a cyrus 3 with seperate power supply, to be honest not noticed
any differance.
If your getting spiking from switching power on, then use a
computertype extension lead.
Been a while ive looked into amps but i do remember NAD done a cheap
envlope amplifier.


 
Posted : 21/10/2009 5:39 pm
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SFB - how can you fail to understand that the comparisson between a £100 camera and a £2000 one is EXACTLY the same as to a piece of hi-fi equipment as all of them have been manufactured!!!!

I don't think it's a valid comparison. Hifi is a mature technology (one might almost think senescent). The recording medium changes from time to time, and a 2nd channel was added what, 50 years ago ? Without cutting corners it's easy to reproduce those signals accurately for a couple of hundred pounds (not counting the speakers) and any further expense must be on cosmetics or pointless refinement. Speakers are of course the weakest point, as they actually generate audible distortion (1..3%). In fact I'm surprised no one has created digital speakers with an optical feedback loop to linearise the mechanics - surely that wouldn't be hard ? Then with a DSP one could tune in whatever kind of sound & distortion one liked, LP, valve etc and all the problems with cables and components would vanish!

In contrast digital photography is still developing rapidly, only recently coming near to challenging the fidelity of (admittedly compromised) 35mm, and I'm sure a lot more needs to be done to get cameras to mimic better the flexibility of our eyes - and that development costs, and the improvements are obvious and measurable.


 
Posted : 22/10/2009 4:43 pm
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Ive known people to rewire there house to get a clean line of power to there hifi and I have spent some time working in a house were the guy spent over $350.000AU building a system into his house and it all just sounded rather good but its got to be only worth it to the beholder as to me and my humble but good hifi worth very much a fraction sounds just as good. As Higs says its up to you if you spend the money if you think its worth it but if its a good Amp it should be very well shielded in the first place!


 
Posted : 22/10/2009 8:40 pm
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