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PS: The manual. Although that may be academic now...
😥
>I wouldn't dispute that for a moment.
I probably would, depending on what that £1/m wire is. Equally if you've wound up the excess wire on the cheap one that'll make a difference, 'cos you've just stuck an inductor between the amp and a speaker. Try drawing a lot of current through a rolled-up extension cable (reel type thing) - it'll get hot, and that's just at 50Hz
I'd certainly expect there'll be a difference regarding whether it's on the stand on on the floor - equally move it in the room too - well, not by 3mm 😉 - that'll make a difference because the pressure waves off the speakers will reflect around the room differently
>Even a few atoms of impurities in a crystal of metal in a wire would affect the electron transport through that structure - after all that's how semiconductors work. Loads of factors involved here.
You've only half the story. You don't have a semiconductor just of one n or p type - it's how you use them together that's important, the crystalline structure of the copper is effectively random (and even it its weren't there doesn't appear to be any reasoning as to why that would make a difference.)
It appears NAIM are a little confused about what it is they actually do...
Agreed. I'm surprised. Well spotted.
Beeing a mischevious little merkin, I think I'll post it on the NAIM forum and see what happens...
😯
I'd certainly be VERY wary about running my NAIM boxes with dodgy cheapo wire
What do you think is going to happen exactly?
if anything went wrong it'd invalidate the warranty.
😆
'Finding out that cheap cables work just as well as the ridiculously expensive ones we sold you invalidates the warranty.'
I CBA reading this but from what I have skimmed it makes me LOL.
Splits opinion into:
1. Those who have heard a difference, don't know why, but believe their ears.
2. Those who have much invested in "engineering" etc who won't swallow any of it, and listen accordingly.
I'm glad I have the breadth of mind to be in camp 1.
MrWoppit, why are you backing out? If it does turn out that your kit is merely OK, rather than the best of the best, surely you can just sell a couple of bits of it to someone equally deluded (I can imagine it would make £500 easy, given that a NAIM remote is £250, and even their take on the humble kettle lead power cable is £400).
Then you could pay off Ian, and get something slightly cheaper that does just as good a job. 🙂
They believe their ears only because they have a receipt for £11k in their wallet! If I'd dropped that much on a bit of kit I reckon I damn well would believe I could hear a difference before I admit I appear to have given almost half my yearly take home pay on a bit of copper 🙂
I'm sure New Scientist and Slashdot.com, would both very interested in getting hold of you Mr Whoppit, and finding more about the directionality of conductors. Contact for both are below, best be quick though, before someone else pips you to picking up that Nobel Prize for Physics with your name on it.
http://slashdot.org/submission
http://www.newscientist.com/contact/us
And I 'love' the old ignorant argument that a scientific mind is a closed mind when the exact opposite is the primary reason people get into science in the first place 🙂
MrWoppit, why are you backing out?
All the fuss and faffing about deconstructing my system, finding and paying for transport, setting up at your end and then doing it all over again in reverse...
As for the cheap cable/warranty issue - it cost me a great deal of money and I'm not willing to risk it especially as NAIM recommend against it, marketing hype or not.
If it does turn out that your kit is merely OK, rather than the best of the best,
That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. How would your proposed test reveal whether or not that is the case?
Anyways, whatever...
I tested cable directionallity in a c. £11K Linn system I owned a few years back. I could not tell any difference between the different cable directions. It's funny when you listen to some of the people on the Naim /Pink Fish forums who profess to have golden ears, then find out they have had one of their speakers wired out of phase for the last 2 years ;-).
Back in the 80's/90's people would put up with this shit, but now things have moved on. The cult of the british HiFi industry has choked on it's own BS, and personally I am very glad about it (dispite wanting to support british industry).
In what possible way could "cheap" cables damage your system? I honestly can't think of any mechanism by which that could happen.
Also if I were you I'd be going for the $1,000,000 from the JREF, never mind the measly £500 that Ian is offering.
One of the things that's worth spending some extra dosh on is your power lead.
Interconnects and speaker wire make a huge difference, but put your amp & / or cd machine on an isolation platform and you'll sit back with a huge grin on your face. The bass especially does amazing things.
I've got mostly Nordst Vishnu power leads and Music Link+ speaker cables & inters and yes, they do make a difference.
If you afford it, try cleaning up the mains too, I have 2x such units, each requiring yet more power leads. About £12k worth in total.
This thread has made me smile, especially in light of [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/tooth-fairy-how-much-does-she-leave-these-days#post-749531 ]mr woppit's comment on the tooth fairy thread[/url] yesterday 🙂
Mark - AdministratorThey believe their ears only because they have a receipt for £11k in their wallet! If I'd dropped that much on a bit of kit I reckon I damn well would believe I could hear a difference before I admit I appear to have given almost half my yearly take home pay on a bit of copper
You give me no credit for intelligence. I "dropped" £11k on the system after I'd heard it demonstrated. Or are you just being an arse?
Dougal - MemberI'm sure New Scientist and Slashdot.com, would both very interested in getting hold of you Mr Whoppit, and finding more about the directionality of conductors. Contact for both are below, best be quick though, before someone else pips you to picking up that Nobel Prize for Physics with your name on it.
Given my previous post regarding what has and what hasn't been published and my comments thereon, I find you to be a supercilious c*nt. No offence.
No smiley.
Well I didn't expect that level of debate when I posted this - I expected to be told I'd die in a fireball for getting the cables the wrong way round.
So I should flog the posh cables and stick with the red/white plugged jobbies off my old stuff then?
Thanks all for an amusing read.
miketually - MemberThis thread has made me smile, especially in light of mr woppit's comment on the tooth fairy thread yesterday
We did this already. Catch up.
As this is turning into a bully session, I'll just cover the NAIM anomaly issue before I leave the jackals to yap at each other.
Apparently:
Fact is, on interconnect and Burndy cables in particular, we don't rely on the cable factory to tell us the "direction" - just because the printing goes in a certain direction doesn't mean that the insulation has been applied consistently in the same direction from one reel to the next. That is why the only true test is to listen. Roy gets some samples cut from each reel and listens to them before declaring the direction. He says it's usually quite easy to tell...Speaker cables can be problematic because if they are printed incorrectly then the cable must be scrapped - not cheap and very inconvenient! They are sampled by batch, and luckily mistakes are rare..
One of the things that's worth spending some extra dosh on is your power lead.
Yes, 1 metre of overpriced cable on the end of the street supply from the substation definitely makes a difference. To your wallet.
IMO the only directionality in any conductor is one that is imposed by the design - i.e. if you have directional connectors (duh!) or if your system connects all shielding to the amp-side/one side (fairly standard practice in noise reduction). There's no inherent directionality in a chunk of braided wire.
On the subject of expensive versus decent kit - of course there could be a difference. Whether there is or not depends on the quality of design and manufacture. I'd believe and oscilloscope before I believed my ears, but I'm fairly sure my ears would miss what a scope wouldnt. Prove it on a scope and I'll believe some people MAY be able to hear a difference.
You want to keep everything as low-resistance as possible so as to reduce losses, you want to avoid capacitance and noise pickup, but otherwise - move along, nothing more to see.
How would your proposed test reveal whether or not that is the case?
Well, I don't think anyone's denying that the quality of componentry used in a hi-fi system makes a difference, up to a point. We've all had experience of crap hi-fi systems (usually correlating with our first flush of enthusiasm for recorded music) and it's clear that spending a few more quid here or there can make a big difference. But this thread is specifically about the fringes of lunacy, and I'd say that stuff like directional cables and £400 power leads fits the bill. Say if you'd spent £1100 on your separates, rather than £11,000, would you be denied the pleasure of hearing Jimmy Page scratching his bollocks?
We did this already. Catch up.
must have been lost among the wild claims, and bragging about expensive hi-fi systems...
I wasn't being an arse Whoppit. My point is that people's perceptions of the value of a product really are directly proportional to how much they have paid for it. It's one of the reasons we treat submitted reviews from people who have actually bought a product with some sceptisism. My point was genuinely meant.. If I'd spent £11k on stereo I'd definitely hear a difference. Whether that difference is real or not is the question. It's not your fault really... The ridicule and derision should really be aimed at the scammers who sell 'directional' cables and not their victims. As you are clearly one of the latter I apologise for my comments.
Don't think we / I spent £thousands on kit in one go.
I spent my 21st birthday money on an amp and a turntable and that was 24 years ago.
The rest of the kit has been upgrades.
Listen to kit in shops and in your own home and if it works, buy it.
If not try something whilst you're there else or return the kit.
It's how it's done. 50% of my ventures have not resulted in a purchase.
It'd be wrong to make the map fit the ground which is what some are suggesting - exactly the opposite is the truth.
Adventures in HiFi - it's even had an album named after it and always done with pals and a bottle of something cold.
Settle on a few tracks on different CD's and see where it all takes you.!
i think the cable test would've been cool and if i was in englandshire i'd have been up for it. of course what you could do is find yourself an audiobooth somewhere and see who's really got the 'golden ear'. Me, while having some lovely, and stupidly expensive, kit in years past age and noise have left me with little in the way of top end hearing. much cheapness has ensued.
and while i neither know nor care if cables are directional, i'm prepared to admit my cable buying purchases in the past have been more motivated by the way they looked, i'm curious about this gem
people's perceptions of the value of a product really are directly proportional to how much they have paid for it
what proportion would that be exactly?
I think cable directionality does matter. The way the metal is extruded determines the way the structure is formed and therefore must have an effect on performance. I must say I haven't performed a listening test, but if you know which way a cable was made, it kinda makes sense to keep things consistent. Why bother going against the grain if the manufacturer has made directionality an identifiable mark on a cable? I guess i'm being somewhat supersticious rather than scientific about this, but it seems like a non-issue to me. It's the type of cable which really matters.
As I have stated in previous threads on this topic, I once thought that claims that different cables would significantly vary the sound quality of a system was all a load of mumbo jumbo hot air, but when I tried a few out I realised I was totally wrong in my assumption.
Technically, it's all about reactance IMHO (capacitance and inductance varies according to the signal frequency and complexity), but nobody seems to be able to come up with any way of measuring cables other than subjective review articles. Understandable given how difficult cable characteristics are to measure. They form part of a circuit which other components have an influence. So the task of measurement becomes pretty impossible.
You get techy types telling us that certain amplifiers will handle tricky loads, whereas others fall flat. I'm sure a particular amplifier's ability in this respect makes a difference to the performance of a cable, as does a speaker design. So in one system, a super fancy cable won't do a great deal whereas in an other it is like chalk and cheese in terms of performance.
Price is no measure, but you try getting cables on loan to try out in your system (you absolutely have to try the cables out in your system at home). It's all about trial and error. I found it very difficult indeed to get a set of different manufacturer's cables on loan.
Interconnects count too and need matching. This all takes time and usually money!
I will not recommend any particular product because what is right for one setup is totally wrong for another, but I assure you that this aspect of sytem building should not be overlooked.
Rule number one: have a completely open mind!
Rule number two: listen for a period time, not back to backing.
Rule number three: Try out as many cables as you can (even if they are ones you cannot afford).
Rule number four: don't forget that hifi is about the pleasure listening to music, not equipment evaluation and interminable upgrading - make a choice and move on to enjoying your music collection!
It'd be wrong to make the map fit the ground which is what some are suggesting
Errr. You kinda have to make the map fit the ground. If it didn't it'd be a useless map and you'd have to go around changing the ground to suit what you'd drawn!
The way the metal is extruded determines the way the structure is formed and therefore must have an effect on performance.
Not really sure that's true. Sure the grain structure of extruded copper may be different to that of say cast or billet copper, but I'm not sure it would induce any directionality, certainly not at any level which may affect electrical signal transmission.
If this were the case I'd expect research work in the high frequency fields (GHz) to have a significant experience base with directional conductors, as they'd be at the pinnacle of sensitivity to signal loss and distortion. I've a colleague doing research in this field, I'll track him down and ask.
Ground fit the map is what I meant to type - but good that you're paying attention!
Speaking for myself, every bit of kit I swap out has to be different and at the very least, make an audiable difference and a step up in my listening experience.
My speaker cable is thicker than a garden hose pipe and not at all attractive, but sounds great.
My present speakers (Living Voice Avatars) no longer have the WOW! visual factor for clients as the previous Matin Logans but it's a different sound and in many ways, more engaging.
Next: a move to an all-valve set-up I think, but money is going on bikes at present!
Oh - if you're not hearing an difference, have your ears syringed! I did and Boy! What a difference.
Valves and horns! OOH sir! 😆
Check out the Living Voice and Martin Logan web sites if you have time and see what I mean about sound over substance.
That's the most recent evolution in 25yrs of my listening pleasure; it's not done all at once.
In answer to your original question, yes, the direction can make a difference if your ears, your (OPEN) mind, the room (in which you listen to music is set up well) and your equipment are all up to the task. Get one of these wrong and you'll maybe not notice a difference.
Either way, I hope you have fun trying this all out - have a beer for me too in the process & if you still can't get a result ask a hifi dealer to set your kit up one evening (£25?) or seek advice from one of the on-line hifi forums perhaps.
I think I'd best email Mavic and ask them which way they extruded my rims, I bet they run a LOT smoother in the right direction.
Can't quite believe we are actually having speaker cable manufacturers vs the laws of physics argument. 😯
I can tell the difference between good headphones and cheap ones, and between really cheap cables and decent ones, but directionality?
That is nearly as whack as the Hi-Fi CD copiers make better sounding copies than a computer cd-burner (I have heard that one off a Hi-Fi enthusiast).
Equally if you've wound up the excess wire on the cheap one that'll make a difference, 'cos you've just stuck an inductor between the amp and a speaker
I do have a Masters degree in Physics, give me some credit mate 🙂
You don't have a semiconductor just of one n or p type - it's how you use them together that's important, the crystalline structure of the copper is effectively random
Obviously it doesn't make a semiconductor, don't be silly. My point was that accidentals or other impurities in crystals can change its properties significantly with respect to conductance 🙂
They believe their ears only because they have a receipt for £11k in their wallet! If I'd dropped that much on a bit of kit I reckon I damn well would believe I could hear a difference before I admit I appear to have given almost half my yearly take home pay on a bit of copper
They believe their minds only because they have a receipt for a £5k bike in their wallet! If I'd dropped that much on a bike I reckon I damn well would belive I could feel a difference before I admit I appear to spent enough money to buy a car on a bicycle!
So I should flog the posh cables and stick with the red/white plugged jobbies off my old stuff then?
No. In fact, you can do your own sound test. Pick an album you know well and lsiten for a good time before switching.
Yes, 1 metre of overpriced cable on the end of the street supply from the substation definitely makes a difference. To your wallet.
Isn't it all about filtering out the noise for power supply?
I can't believe we've got to page five and nobody has discussd the importance of burning in your cables, or paying for the service...
This: I am not one who attempts to discern the subtle sonic differences cables convey on an audio system. I am a firm believer that only poorly designed cables can under the right conditions be sonically distinguishable. That being said, my listening tests focused on pure enjoyment of the sound quality of my reference system. At no point did I feel the Kimber cables were adding a level of realism I’ve never heard before with my standard 10AWG Blue Jeans zip cord. Never did I feel the midrange got more chocolatey or a magic veil was lifted. My wife never claimed she could hear the difference all the way from the kitchen while she was cooking up some chicken Marsala.
is from this article - real tests using graphs and all sorts... 😉
[url] http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/kimber-kable-8pr/kk4pr-8prlisteningtests [/url]
Here's an interesting comment:
"
Posted Mon 12 October 2009 19:21
Hi M***,
You should ask the physics guys where the graviton is 
Scientific evidence requirs measurment in order to quantify. The problem arrises when an experience is not measurable. This is usually because we aren't able to, or don't know what the hell is to be measured. Which brings me back to the graviton. Humans as yet do not know what gravity is, yet we all experience it. Life's funny sometimes." 8)
Oh, and before anybody jumps in with "it's just the same for god, isn't it" or the like:
"Humans as yet do not know what gravity is, [b]yet we all experience it[/b]"
We know what it is... by that there is a good scientific theory for what it is that is backed up by repeatable observations... It is the warping of spacetime by mass. What we don't know as yet is the exact physical mechanism of its propagation. But don't confuse that with not knowing what it is. Gravity is quite simple to understand, predict, model and measure.. Unlike directional cables..
It's funny that naim never used to sell expensive cables but after Julian died they started doing so.
Me I don't believe in the whole cable phooey so I just use cheap copper speaker cable and the stuff that came with TT and phono stage.
For what its worth I bagged a few meters of some super dooper speaker cable costing in excess of 100 quid a meter.
It made no difference I could hear.
My system is good enough that the hifi man thought he could rip me for some £1000 pound speaker cable though.
Some cables are electrically odd though like Goertz and can really make big changes but this is due to them cocking up your amp.
Check out russ andrews for a real bastard amoungst men...
There is quite a lot that I could write on this thread. But really, it can be summed up with [url=
Stop arguing and stick some music on!
Damn I'm late to this one...esp as I got a mention on page 1. Personally I think it's tosh. There's a difference between really cheap stuff and more expensive stuff, but the law of diminishing returns comes in VERY early IMHO. There are too many other things in play. If it matters, I have 15yrs in electronics but more critically, 4years designing Pro Audio equipment for the Harman Pro group.
but the law of diminishing returns comes in VERY early IMHO
Agreed. The trick seems to be to find that one thing that's as good as something much more expensive, then you get slightly ahead of the diminishing returns curve.
Then STOP! DO NOT KEEP UPGRADING! GO OUT RIDING INSTEAD!
Why can't some people realize the hi-fi, or listening to music is a hobby to some, just like riding a bike. Don't forum members realize there are other hobby forums who laugh at all the things we write about our hobby and the things we find with our bikes, after all they are just bikes!
I've always believed the mind can make us do and think very strange things, things we can't explain and this is very relevant with hi-fi. How many times have you listened to a music track and it has made the hairs on your back stand on end, it hightening your senses even though it may be played through some clapped out radio with very poor reproduction quality? Now listen to the same track on a good hi-fi system and see what it does to you!
I'm very sceptical about expensive interconnects and speaker cable even though I'm a hi-fi/music buff. I do and have listened to many many different pieces of kit, not just when buying but also because a friend owned a very well respected shop and I always used my ears, didn't pre-judge anything and only bought what I thought made good music. Luckily with hi-fi you can get the chance to listen before you buy and make sensible choices whereas in the cycling world that's not possible with individual pieces of kit and you have to buy and then find out it's either good or bad. I don't trust the magazines, especially the cycling press as anyone who reads MBR's tests on bikes can have glowing reviews on one bike and mediocre on another - even with the same writer! So I think before we criticise someone else's hobby, ours needs putting right too. I read a review in one magazine where the writer said he didn't like one bike because the head angle was half a degree steeper than the other! Do you really think he could tell half a degree? Did he even measure them? Was he using the manufacturers specs? I try and trust my own judgement but this isn't always possible I know but like I said at the start, our mind can play tricks on us and make making decisions very difficult indeed. Some people will never get why some people pay thousands on hi-fi equipment, just like I don't get why some people pay a fortune for a bottle of wine or fo fine dining. I can't tell the difference in why a £100 bottle of wine is supposed to taste better than a £10 bottle but then again I've no desire to either but I do realize it's all subjective so why not let those who want enjoy their hobby do so and just get on with our own. Surely anyone on here who's talked to friends about how much they've spent on thier bikes has had lots and lots of them ask why as it's "just a bike" even though we can explain many many differences between them, I promise you this, they will never understand it and don't care to either. One mans meat etc etc.
Next up:
Deep Cryogenic Treatment - (DCT)
Never tried it but it sound interesting.
PS - There are some companies who will let you rent cables, be they power leads, interconnects or speaker cable. If you don't hear a difference, don't buy, and it's got not one jot to do with whatever receipt you have in that wallet of yours as most hifi is upgrades to the original purchase and is therefore an ongoing evolution and not one single out-right purchase.
"it's just the same for god, isn't it"
Erm, let's see...
Person A makes observation with no scientific basis. Person A's peers respond along the lines of "chinny reckon".
Person A gets all defensive and insists that he is correct, using circular logic as justification ("Why would they bother if it didn't make a difference?" - the answer's in your wallet, sunshine). More mirth ensues.
Person A says "no, wait, person B believes me and he's really clever". Person A also resorts to tiresome parroted argument along the lines of "science can't explain gravity".
Not seeing any parallels at all here, nooooooo. 🙂
my directional cables do warp spacetime by mass, but does me dropping them make them sound better or worse? (yep i do use nordorst cables & interconnects because they afford greater separation, clarity and stereo imaging over both QED, Chord, SME and others).