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Have a read of these threads on pro audio forums
http://www.blue-room.org.uk/lofiversion/index.php/t6263.html
http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=4934
eg
I'm currently working at a Audio Post-Pro / dobly mastering houseAll our analouge signal flow goes through B gauge patch bay using cheep as c*** klotz cable: we use neutric jacks as they are the most durable.
The cable going to our rediculus Genelec powered monitors is the same cheep stuff, and the amp - speaker cable is standerd 2 core 2.5mm mains cable...
something to think about: if we're mastering music for the consumer, whats the point in Hi-Fi bums using gear better than ours? If our gear is considered 'pro top line' why does the consumer try to better it?
something to think about: if we're mastering music for the consumer, whats the point in Hi-Fi bums using gear better than ours? If our gear is considered 'pro top line' why does the consumer try to better it?
It keeps coming back to this and I really do think this is the crux of the matter...
something to think about: if we're mastering music for the consumer, whats the point in Hi-Fi bums using gear better than ours? If our gear is considered 'pro top line' why does the consumer try to better it?
On the other hand.. some CDs are manifestly crappily mastered and some not. Ever wonder why that would be? 🙂
I think some of it's called information retreval, because we wold all use the same decks, cd players etc as studio's wouldn't we? We don't because we all hear hings differently hence my liking for amp b over amp a etc. There's also snob value in anything in life, be it what car you drive, what bike you ride, what you like eating or wine you drink so don't dismiss that either. Like I said, I've always used my ears and my cables sound fine to me and didn't cost a fortune either so maybe I'm lucky.
So... after 5 pages of blather can we sumarise as follows:-
Cables can make a perceived difference to the quality of the music listened to, but they don't appear to offer any measurable differences.
So, it's a bit like the memory effect in water in that regard then...
:oD
Hadge, surely the hifi purists dream is to listen to the music in as pure a form as possible, and to sound as close to that intended by the musician...
In which case, you'd be wanting the exact same kit that the studio used to master the album/track...
Okay, so maybe the snobbery element is more important then... ;o)
Yep, clear as mud.
Maybe cheap cables might inhibit the performance if you were running your stereo at full volume, but I imagine most people listen at around 20-30 Watts max anyway.
Active HiFi components like amps, tuners, CD players etc.. get better with increased quality and ergo price.. as a general rule.. This I accept. I believe.. I've experienced.. Not really go a problem with anyone spending thousands on those parts. Not even got a problem with anyone spending a reasonable amount of money on say gold plated terminal cables.. gold doesn't oxidise so the electrical connections are better.. Solid core cables as opposed to twisted core cables I can also see the point of and I've experienced the difference. There are good physical explanations as to why there is a difference.
But..
Directional cables that cost hundreds/thousands?
I admire the guys selling this stuff as there is just no way I could keep a straight face when taking the mugs money. There is NO directionality in a solid bit of metal. If you believe there is you are wrong. The music signal is AC. If there was any directionality to a cable it was being transmitted through it would sound bloody awful out the other end as it would be rectified to some degree.
Pro music studios.. the very ones that record the music for us in the first place laugh at the people buying these cables. Copper wire is copper wire. The parameters you get to control when you buy it are length and thickness... maybe how pretty you think it looks or the colour.. You can shield it with an earthed sleeve if you want.
To think there are people buying a piece of wire and paying more than the cost of their active hifi components for it just staggers me. It really does!
It's not rocket science!
To think there are people buying a piece of wire and paying more than the cost of their active hifi components for it just staggers me. It really does!
It's not rocket science!
It's not [i]any[/i] kind of science.
Here's some science: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
To me it looks like a well designed test that was executed reasonably. There were issues about seating of the listeners, time taken to swap leads and the choice of music but nothing that I think would compromise the conclusion.
In summary, a double-blind randomised 'ABX' test of showed that listeners could detect a difference between Nordost Valhalla power leads and cheapo generic power cables 49% of the time. They may as well have tossed a coin.
>I do have a Masters degree in Physics, give me some credit mate
'Fraid I don't have ESP 😉 - the comments you made come over as someone that knew a little about a few things but not their relationship/significance to anything else - bear in mind there seems to be more than a little of that in this thread.
Actually, perhaps the difference is this - an engineer is always looking to make something 'good enough' - it's rarly any use spending 100x to gain a notional 0.01% of performance. Eg the old 'engineering approximation' used to be 10% - but it obviously depending what you're designing for (and one may want to use error analysis to verify changes). As an engineer, if it has no significant effect, you generally forget about it (unless of course you're worried about error accumulation). In physics you may want to know it's there and squirrel away the fact for later use.
>The way the metal is extruded determines the way the structure is formed and therefore must have an effect on performance
Must? On what basis ?
Oh, I checked with my mate re his Naim stuff...curiously he's never been the slightest bit bothered to try faffing with cable directions, and on his Naim kit the connectors used make it impossible to easily swap 'em round anyway.
Funnynick - it doesn't work that way. If it did we would all be listening to Rogers LS3/5a speakers which DON'T do bass very well. Not everyones cup of tea syndrome I'm afraid. I buy stuff I like, then listen to it as it makes me happy. I have no desire to upgrade, funds etc being as they are and also believing I've got a system that sounds right for me. I understand technology moves on and on but I also realize my ears are getting worse and worse lol.
I thought about that, but decided that would be open to the accusation that there was then too much time between hearings so comparison wouldn't be possible?
simple.
tell him you've changed the cables, while out actually having changed them.
then see if he can tell a difference.
seem to remember such a test being done on AVforums. with a chap and his wife being the test ears (he a audiophile, and she being married to him)
When i was setting up my Hi-fi equiment in my house after moving in, i popped over to Richer Sounds for some extra cabling and got to borrow there sample pack of different speaker cables - ranging from cheap 1-2mm cable that tends to come with cheap stereos, some 8mm cable, some more expensive cable and a bit of expensive cable. - i couldnt tell a differance except for the really cheap cable which was a bit hissy.
So i stuck with my £10 for 30m of JVC 8mm cable for the majority of the wiring, except for 10m of some more expensive cable, which was flat so i could run it under the carpet to the otherside of the room for my rear speakers.
seem to remember such a test being done on AVforums. with a chap and his wife being the test ears (he a audiophile, and she being married to him)
There's a test on AVReview.co.uk which doesn't really have enough data to have validity but does seem to show that a difference can be determined between £1.99 and £7.99 generic speaker cables but that "[i]it was much more difficult to detect a clear difference when we used the more expensive 'cheap' cable (£7.99) against the £500 Chord Signature.[/i]"
http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/1863
Lord: When have Poorer Sounds ever sold hi-end HiFi Cable?
Answer: Never.
If you are going to do it properly, at least put some effort into it.
Go to a Real Hifi shop, demo some kit, borrow others and maybe get someone over to set it up for you (£25?) and then tell me there's no difference you can't live without.
This is what happens when you're starting out and want more from your music and you are prepared to invest some real time, effort and maybe some £ into the projest.
If anyone doubts this and lives in the Watford area, I have spare kit and you're welcome to have a listen to bits I have collected over the years, some of which is for sale, but that's a by-the-by.
Can't say fairer than that .
RichPenny - Member
There is quite a lot that I could write on this thread. But really, it can be summed up with this.Stop arguing and stick some music on!
Damn I had been waiting to see what RichPenny had to say on all this 🙁
Ti29er - i dont really care.
i bought some kit that - to me, sounded good. was an improvement over what i had. and i could afford.
The speaker cables i really wasnt too bothered about - except for the short run from the amp to the back of the room for the rear speakers.
Just took my time to make sure i got the wires the right way round.
i much prefer going out to gigs - seeing the band in the raw.
The only thing i would like to do, is when i can, upgrade my Wharfedale Moviestar 60 speakers for something a little larger (was origonally hankering after Acoustic Energy EVO speakers, but they've been discontinued)
.....which leads to; "which music do you play when auditioning hifi"?
Sorry - a red herring I know, but if you are contributing to this thread you'll know what you use as a bench mark for the music you know.
BTW - piano we are told is the most difficult to replicate accurately.
Have you listened to the 2004 album [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Una-Mattina-Ludovico-Einaudi/dp/B0002LMLSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1255438895&sr=8-1 ]the Una Mattina Album[/url].... by Ludovico Einaudi; piano and cello?
PS - if you don't care, why post?
Seriously though, ditch the 3,5,7 speaker surround for music and switch back to a 2 system set up, one for music (stereo) and one for TV, Movies etc.
Which rather begs the question: how many are posting here about audiophile things but at the very same time are listening to something with more than 2 front (stereo) speakers?
(bangs head against brick wall)
Here's another Double Blind ABX test. In shocking news, the listeners were unable to distinguish between the cables.
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
I'm listening to Kenny Ken dropping old skool drum & bass on a cassette right now....and I personally GUARANTEE that it sounds better than any of your MOR or Piano or Cello on a Naim or anything else.
No contest.
Well, your guarantee, at this distance, seem somewhat Ratner-esque in this regard.
Besides, mine is a Wadia based system, not Naim.
Cassette. Eight track per-chance?
One less luddite opinion to bother with then! 🙄
<tannoy> This is a colleague announcement. Would SFB and ernie lynch please pick up their handbags from the god thread and make their way over to the stereo cable thread as soon as possible please. Thank you. <tannoy>
Which rather begs the question: how many are posting here about audiophile things but at the very same time are listening to something with more than 2 front (stereo) speakers?
(bangs head against brick wall)
Oh come on, you mean you've never tried decent 5.1 audio, with a choice of audience or stage location? http://www.itrax.com/
But forget it, I'm just a luddite. I imagine with you it's all about having all the technology & no taste? Is that what I should aspire to?
[img] 
[/img]
music sounds more like music
that's inspired!
Clubber Bikes ride more like bikes than any other brand
I'll be rich!
Of course, as I said, two systems.
5.1 music is, well, not stereo and not good enough.
Mighty Higs what a laugh, pmsl. Typical bullshit come from the land with no history. People like that want stringing up by the short and curlys. Is Jonathan Valin an anagram for total w@@ker? It's a shame that geunine hi-fi manufacturers suffer abuse they don't deserve when there are idiots like that spouting utter bollox and trying rip people off.
[url= http://www.livingvoice.co.uk/ ]No chance of owning the Hi-end stuff[/url] but you have to just love the dedication, persuit of excellence and craftmanship.
Based in Nottingham.
Then there's this[url= http://www.definitiveaudio.co.uk/ ]Then there's this.[/url]
If after all this you are left non-plussed, then , fine, but if you are looking for "more", then, in response to the very original post, yes, directional cables can and do make a difference if all other factors (as previous covered) are present.
Enjoy.
Ye gods that horn speaker is ugly. There's no way my other half would let that monstrosity in our house. It's like something out of a Jim Carrey film.
For the record I went home and reversed the directional cables according to the manufacturer instructions. I didn't hear any difference but slept soundly knowing that I'm earning hifi karma points.
On reflection, I think there could have been a difference but it's difficult to say what with the digibox whirring away in one corner of the room and the heating clonking into life.
[b]Ti29er[/b] said ... "directional cables can and do make a difference if all other factors (as previous covered) are present."
Can you substantiate that claim with robust scientific evidence?
And... it's Russ Andrews?
Sounds like many a poster is also a secret Halford's purchaser.
Would you, given the money, skills and ability buy, say a Jones?
Or are you a Carrera Man?
There are, like it or not, direct parrallels, albeit, at opposite ends.
The Mighty. So lost are you that you want scientific evidence! Sad. Have you learned not one thing from here? Open your mind, try the kit, borrow the kit, loan the kit and if you are still hear no improvement, retire back to LidditeVille.
SME - Drools into the carpet. Wants to move back to valve and LP's but is still in mountain-bike mode.
SME30/12 - ooh err! Would like to listen to one but will have to make do with my LP12. I've tried a few high-end TT's (Avid/Michel Orbe etc) and prefer the older LP12 musicality compared to the Avids sound. From what I gather the new Radical'ed LP12 sounds very much like the newer breed of TT's and if that's the case I'll stick with my modest LP12 combo and the point being I'm happy with it as it's me who listens to it, not anyone else.
[i]The Mighty. So lost are you that you want scientific evidence! Sad. [/i]
I'd have agreed with you, but baby jesus told me not to.
Ti29er... aaaah, so only those enlightened ones can hear the difference between directional and normal cables? Doesn't that remind anyone of the Emporer's New Clothes? :o)
PS. wanna buy some directional chain lube?
The Mighty. So lost are you that you want scientific evidence! Sad
That'll be the scientist in me coming out again.
If you want to tell me that having directional speaker cable enhances your enjoyment while listening to music, that's fine. Just don't state, as fact, that they 'do make a difference'. Because they don't.
You have to laugh at the audiophool accusations of closed minds. I'm completely prepared to accept that cables can make a difference to sound quality. Just bring me a double-blind test that proves it.
Simples.
It's not about being enlightened funkynick, it's just the same as those who swear by expensive wine and those who get by with a £6 bottle. I've no desire to try a £100 bottle as I probably couldn't tell the difference and so £94 will stay in my pocket and I'll still get drunk. I also like watching Masterchef but I swear my mums Sunday Roast would beat any of that fine dining crap they have on their because it's got "big flavours" and "bags of taste" and it's what I like! This is one of those debates that will go on and on..............
What do the audiophiles do when they want to listen to music in the car?
Do they have a hermetically sealed cockpit with special noise baffles, and a spatial modelling pre-amp that converts the acoustic characteristics of a Mondeo into the great hall of Worms Cathedral? Just wondering, like. 🙂
I guess they listen to music. Me, I prefer to put the window down and listen to the straight 6 noise my engine makes 🙂
I also think personally no car stereo can compete with a hi-fi set up in a house so have no desire to try either.
They put their fingers in ther ears and shout 'la-la-la-la'
Hadge... all of which I wouldn't argue about, as each of those are entirely subjective and down to someones personal tastes. So if you are saying these cables are entirely subjective then I'd agree with you there too...
The problem comes with comments like those from Ti29er, stating that there is definitely a difference and if you can't hear one then you must be a luddite.
I do think that as I've no proof. My proof is my hearing and my taste buds which has to be subjective and it's something I've always believed even after over 25 years of buying decent kit. I could be tone deaf (something I've been told after people hearing me sing lol) and besides I used to shoot full-bore pistols and rifles so I doubt my hearing is tip top anyway!
The problem comes with comments like those from Ti29er, stating that there is definitely a difference and if you can't hear one then you must be a luddite.
It's one thing to call people luddites but 'secret Halford's purchaser' (sic) is beyond the pale. 😥
OK.
I retract the HALFORD'S slurr.
But the analogy is close.
Music in the car. Luddites!
It's difficult to convey these ideas without you following some simple guidence, but beyond this, it's like banging ones head against (Halford's) out side walls.
If you don't make the effort or want to make a difference, then you will simply never understand. Other than that, best ride your bike and enjoy would be my advice as you can but lead a horse to water.....