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There is no geek like an audio geek?
My stereo is £200 a box stuff - so decent but not fantastic. I used to run it on mains wire and got cheap proper speaker wire and I would swear there was a noticeable difference.
Stilltortoise, the difference is that bikes are made up of loads of different parts, and something as simple as changing the contact points or winding out the fork 10mm can make a noticeable difference to how it feels. And then of course it's a human-powered vehicle, which introduces another element to how well it "performs".
Changing two poxy cables and claiming that it's transformed your Huey Lewis and the News CDs into a sensurround audio spaff-fest is a much more measurable claim. 🙂
BSc. (Hons) Audio & Music Technology guy who worked for Arcam for a bit says, my 2p's worth:
1. directionality is arguably b@lls
2. Quality / difference of interconnects isn't b@lls, but only to a certain point
3. Look at what recording studios use - balanced XLR's at (usually) a fraction of the price of posh hi-fi interconnects.
4. That is all
*gets back to day job*
The analogy with the god argument is interesting except of course that there is evidence of the audio signal actually being there in the first place... 😉
In the meantime, I've discovered the following which you might find interesting from Julian Vereker (NAIM founder) - an email reply to just this query.
[i]MY FRIEND TOLD ME THAT YOUR CABLES ARE DIRECTION SENSITIVE!
THERE IS SO MANY VOODOO IN AUDIO MARKET, I ALWAYS THOUGHT
THAT YOUR IMAGE IS RATHER RATIONAL THAN PARANORMAL!
Date: April 17, 1999 05:33 AM
Author: julian vereker
Subject: direction
Here follows a cut & paste from an earlier post of mine. "I can't tell
you why cables sound different one way round to the other, but I do
know when the 'directionality' happens in manufacture.
It doesn't seem to matter how the bundle (of copper) is drawn, single
direction or mixed direction, but as soon as the insulation is
extruded onto the bundle, the directionality is established. This
means that one can mark the insulation and it will always be the right
way round.
I suspect that the hot plastic insulation anneals the copper in some
way, and this affects the crystaline structure.
But all our attempts, over many years, have failed to find any
measurement to show the directionality or indeed whether one cable
will sound better than another (other than the obvious - resistance,
capacitance and inductance)
Maybe someone out there knows?"
I am not sure about being an ex Physicist, I would have thought 'Once
a Physicist always a Physicist'. However one thing that is often
missed by the 'profesionals' is that audio electronics design is the
most difficult discipline of all - one has to design for 10 octaves
and 130dB at the same time - a huge envelope, and much larger than any
other area of electronics endeavor.
julian[/i]
@coffeeking - ta, I'll look into that further, that rings a bell.
Tho' that sounds like you have a (n effectively differential) pair running from the sensor, and the shield is a shield, not a ground return - got any links to hand ?
>No matter what people read in reviews or what geometry/spec a bike has
I guess the same bike will appear different to two people just on riding style. Given two bikes of the same geometry and different manufacture they'd still be quantifiably difference in some way (eg loading vs frame flex) - but how you'd relate that to the way is rides is another thing. Whilst Mr Woppitt is kinda right in saying his ears are the final arbiter he's completely missing the point in thinking that's the only comparison, and the only reliable one at that.
I suspect that the hot plastic insulation anneals the copper in some
way, and this affects the crystaline structure.But all our attempts, over many years, have failed to find any
measurement to show the directionality or indeed whether one cable
will sound better than another (other than the obvious - resistance,
capacitance and inductance)
And this has convinced you in some way Mr Woppit? He's basically shrugged his shoulders and said 'dunno, some kind of magic I suppose'.
Blimey - we seem to be assembling some of the same cast as the Alpha/Atheist thread and nearly as much reasoned discussion.
Spot on. Bloke says "I can't prove this to you, but I know it's real". Much piss-taking follows. The only difference is that one of the main protagonists of the religion thread is now on the other side of the fence.
Still, we all have our blind spots eh? 🙂
How would a double blind test show a difference you couldn't hear?
Mr Majeika and his cronies from What Snake Oil magazine sit in a room conducting double blind tests until that Eureka moment where they can conclusively observe that Mr Kimber's £20,000 cables are in fact better after all. They publish said findings and Joe Public promptly spends all his savings on said cable. He doesn't bother trying the cable himself because the double blind tests "must be right", forgetting that actually his perception is what matters.
Simple and in fact how most mags support their respective industry. How many of us get to test [i]all[/i] the equipment we buy?
I put a XTR mech on my bike, and when I got to the top of the hill, it had made the view much more vivid and dynamic. I think the clouds looked 'fluffier'.
Surely digital interconnects are the worst culprit?
KS-2020 not only uses the highest purity silver, it incorporates KIMBER’s latest discoveries in the nature of digital signals. The result? Even more detail and even more music. You have to hear this cable between your CD transport and DAC to appreciate the massive improvements it can bring.
They publish said findings and Joe Public promptly spends all his savings on said cable. He doesn't bother trying the cable himself because the double blind tests "must be right", forgetting that actually his perception is what matters.
Why would trying said cable make any difference? If you want to hear one, you will.
And this has convinced you in some way Mr Woppit? He's basically shrugged his shoulders and said 'dunno, some kind of magic I suppose'.
No, as I said - my ears convinced me.
I don't offer it as something to convince you either. Just something of interest whilst I see if I can source something meatier, which I probably will not be able to understand myself, but will give the specialists here something to chew on...
I hope that's clear.
What do you make of the "crystalline strucure" part of the email?
:-).
I put some Cable Talk Talk 3 on my hi-fi a few years ago - a humble combo of ~£150-300 components & you could definitely hear things that you couldn't with the boggo cheap wire - stuff I hadn't noticed in songs, words that I was never quite sure of that I could hear that little bit better to actually understand.....
.....only cost £3.25/mtr I seem to remember so I was quite pleased.
Can't really comment on the directionality/science side of things.
Bloke says "I can't prove this to you, but I know it's real". Much piss-taking follows. The only difference is that one of the main protagonists of the religion thread is now on the other side of the fence.
I refer the honurable member to the answer I gave previously...
The analogy with the god argument is interesting except of course that there is evidence of the audio signal actually being there in the first place...
...
Still, we all have our blind spots eh?
Indeed we do. Literally. So much for "intelligent design"... 😉
No, as I said - my ears convinced me.
Ears aren't the problem - it's what they're connected to. 😉
BTW mr woppit, if you system is all NAIM (as I think you are suggesting) it is quite conceivable that NAIM cables work better with it, if they have done something funny with the impedances of the components (inc cables).
Not a bad marketing method of couse...
I think the quote
But all our attempts, over many years, have failed to find any
measurement to show the directionality or indeed whether one cable
will sound better than another (other than the obvious - resistance,
capacitance and inductance)
says it all...
If they can't measure a difference, how do they know it's there?
except of course that there is evidence of the audio signal actually being there in the first place...
What on earth does that mean? So people with cheap interconnects don't actually hear any music? 😕
What on earth does that mean? So people with cheap interconnects don't actually hear any music?
Um, no. It means that there is a self-evident audio signal to examine, but there is no "god" with which to do the same...
Anyway, I'm not getting much of a response to my request for some scientific text regarding the subject on another forum beyond Julian Vereker's email, so I've emailed NAIM to ask if they can point to any published work on the matter.
I'll get back as soon as I hear anything.
[i]However, why would NAIM suddenly suspend their approach with regard to the speaker cable by insisting on it's directionality when (presumably) their test results would show no difference in directional performance?[/i]
[i]My system is a mostly "NAIM" collection of seperates at about £11k.[/i]
Think you may have answered your own question some what chap...
There is no geek like an audio geek?
TJ this is another example of why all your arguments are blinkered, inward-facing and shite-filled. You call someone a geek regardless of whether or not the term may be deemed offensive yet you are the most vocal and offensive when you don't agree with other's opinions. Your holier-than-though standpoint is a load of bollox really aint it. And don't say you didn't mean to sound offensive because you didn't mean it as a compliment did you?
Notice I haven't once called your nursing career a lady-job 'cos most importantly you may find it offensive so don't go calling people geeks just because you lack the understanding.
an Munro - MemberGood point. We've got a sound room at work. I can set up a nice test where I can swap between a bit of mains cable driving the speakers, and whatever pixie dust cable you choose to bring along. I'll swap the wires over 10 times an if you can correctly tell me which is which 10 times, and I'll give you £500 quid, you fail, and you give me £500 quid.
Sounds good, whereabouts are you?
Please describe the room, the equipment and the test process.
Mr W.
>If they can't measure a difference, how do they know it's there?
To be fair, there is the case of having the right test. For example, you could just sweep a sine wave from 10Hz to 30kHz through an amp, and measure the response/phase delay through it, or you could pulse-test it - both tests will tell you useful stuff, but mebbe not the whole picture.
But in the case of an amp, it's got non-linear components, wheras an interconnect is a relatively simple thing to analyse/measure
>What do you make of the "crystalline strucure" part of the email?
Curious! - if you think about it, current in the cable is a bunch of electrons moving to/fro' - the signal in the cable is *alternating*, so what's in one direction one moment is in t'other the next. Non-linear cable? - I doubt it.....
Bear in mind too that this stuff is built onto a copper-clad fibreglass pcb - there's no such thing as directionality.
there is a self-evident audio signal to examine
Well, people who believe in Jebus don't generally try and point to physical evidence of His existence. They just say "my life has been touched by him" or some other such wishy-washy bollox. Just like your Huey Lewis and Pet Shop Boys CDs are touched by your fancy cables. 🙂
Then, as you pointed out on the other thread, they usually quote some dogma... 😆
Found this on another forum:
Dear Xxxxx,
unfortunately our marketing department doesn't like to offend people who believe in the "burn in" and directionality theory of speaker cables. If you subscribe to these theories, you may choose to arrange the QED Original cable so that the writing points from the amplifier, towards the the speaker.
If, like me, you don't believe a piece of copper can behave like a diode, you may safely ignore the advice!
Sorry to have worried you for the sake of political correctness,
Yours sincerely
XXXXXX XXXXXXX
xxxx@qed.co.uk
QED AUDIO PRODUCTS LTD,
(ARMOUR HOME ELECTRONICS)
Unit B3
Kinsgswey Business Park,
Forsyth Road
WOKING,
Surrey UK
GU21 5SA
www.qed.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1483 747474
Fax: +44 (0)1483 545600
Could be made up of course ......
Well, people who believe in Jebus don't generally try and point to physical evidence of His existence. They just say "my life has been touched by him" or some other such wishy-washy bollox. Just like your Huey Lewis and Pet Shop Boys CDs are touched by your fancy cables.
I think that's an extremely weak analogy. The cables are actually there as well as the audio signal...
Interesting assumptions about my musical tastes. I assume that's some sort of put-down?
I think that's an extremely weak analogy. The cables are actually there as well as the audio signal...
And religious types are alive, and having a broadly similar experience to you or I. The difference is that they have a magical extra ingredient that we're all supposedly missing out on. See where I'm coming from?
Re the musical tastes comment, I think that the fancier the hi-fi system, the greater the chance that the user will be listening to some anodyne overproduced shite. Apologies if the stereotype doesn't fit. 🙂
I think you should review your forum name and reliance on making assumptions with stereotyping.
I take it that by "fancy", you mean "expensive"? I don't agree that my system is overpriced for the level of performance that I get (which I find stacks up better than many I have heard costing three times as much at various audio shows).
The only drawback with true Hifi is of course that it relays as faithfully as possible what is on the disc, so if it's a rubbish recording you're going to hear it.
Personally, I find "Since I've Been Loving You" on Led Zeppilin 3 to be a real test of patience due to Bonham's incredibly squeaky bass drum pedal, for instance...
That qed mail's here:
There's an interesting quote from a paper from the 90s, the summary seems to be 'mebbe there's some directionality but it's down in the noise*' (*no pun intended).
Almost more interesting is post #37, which is where some of the directionaily fud may stem from. If you wire the two speakers out of phase (as the guy had done) you *will* detect a difference (and it's easily measurable). But that's very difference from directional wire.
Personally I find it very enjoyable as it's a great song, but if you want to listen to the pedal then that's up to you....
Personally, I find "Since I've Been Loving You" on Led Zeppilin 3 to be a real test of patience due to Bonham's incredibly squeaky bass drum pedal, for instance...
Wow. That £11k was a great investment then? Anyway, enjoy your cables. 🙂
At the risk of showing my age, this whole debate reminds me of the fuss magazines made of the first CD players that only had one DAC. This led to a phase delay between channels that was seen as a major indicator of the players performance.
However some simple sums showed that this difference, in the worst case, was the equivalent of misplaceing your speakers (or ears) by about 3mm, but every month critics would slag off a player for its phase difference. I can only assume that their heads were held in a metal clamp to ensure fair comparisons ...
[i]Sounds good, whereabouts are you?
Please describe the room, the equipment and the test process.[/i]
Hatfield, Herts.
The room's an Anechoic chamber about 6ft by 8 of usable space I'd guess. The equipment would be any sound equipment you'd care to bring along. I'd supply some sort of 'black box' to switch between the two sets of speaker cables. You'd choose whatever ever bit of music you like. I use a random number generator to select which bit of speaker wire get's switched into the circuit, you listen to the music and tell me which you think it is. I note your choice, and we repeat the test 10 times. You're allowed to listen to the music with either wire before the test starts, but you won't be told which is which.
I don't understand why anyone would think the composition of the materials conducting signals WOULDN'T make a difference. After all, you've got one signal wiggling away along the wire which your ear (inner and outer) transposes then your brain manages to decode it into instruments, squeaky pedals, fingers on fretboards, smokers' larynxes and an infinite array of expressions and nuances. So it's fairly for me to accept that absolutely minute electronic effects could alter the unbelievably complex perception of this soup of analogue data.
Even a few atoms of impurities in a crystal of metal in a wire would affect the electron transport through that structure - after all that's how semiconductors work. Loads of factors involved here.
No-one here is claiming that £30,000 of cable will turn crap into gold (so stop extrapolating to extremes to try and win arguments!) but I will hands-down guarantee that I can tell the difference between my old £1/m speaker cable and the QED anniversary silver £5/m stuff I replaced it with. There was tons more bass, and anyone would have been able to tell. And I'll take that double-blind test. I'm also fairly confident that I woudl be able to tell the difference between my setup (not expensive btw) on its low-end real hifi stand and on the floor. Even my Mrs remarked upon that and a) she wasn't listening for it, b) she doesn't really care about hifi and c) she wasn't even asked about it by me. She is however intelligent and observant 🙂
I'd supply some sort of 'black box' to switch between the two sets of speaker cables
Not good enough - have to be wired in directly, you're gong to have to change the cables by hand.
I'd be interested in joining in this experiment btw although i'm not making any wild claims. Apart from the one about the QED silver cable *on my system*.
[i]but I will hands-down guarantee that I can tell the difference between my old £1/m speaker cable and the QED anniversary silver £5/m stuff I replaced it with[/i]
I wouldn't dispute that for a moment.
No-one here is claiming that £30,000 of cable will turn crap into gold (so stop extrapolating to extremes to try and win arguments!) but I will hands-down guarantee that I can tell the difference between my old £1/m speaker cable and the QED anniversary silver £5/m stuff I replaced it with. There was tons more bass, and anyone would have been able to tell. And I'll take that double-blind test.
If you could win the £500 offered here, you could follow it up by doing the $1 million challenge that James Randi offered.
http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4
Just got this back from NAIM:
We [b]listen to a sample of all our cables[/b] (my emphasis), to determine directionality, before manufactureIf you do a Google search on "cable directionality" you will find many discussions, for, against and theory
Not a great deal of use, but I did as I was told. A brief scan doesn't seem to show what we're looking for but instead just highlights the discussion so far, including some claims to published evidence without any indication as to it's whereabouts. Oh well.
I enclose one article which goes into the technology in some detail which may be of interest with just the sort of measurements we're looking for. However, not for "burn" or "directionality", only the claim that it exists.
For what it's worth:
As far as badly-produced albums go, fortunately, few of the ones I'm interested in are completely unlistenable, most production values are more than acceptable and the best ones are awesome.
Bonham's careless kit maintenance notwithstanding.
[i]Not good enough - have to be wired in directly, you're gong to have to change the cables by hand.[/i]
I thought about that, but decided that would be open to the accusation that there was then too much time between hearings so comparison wouldn't be possible?
I had a brief dalliance with 'proper' hi-fi about 20 years ago and it's nice to see the same old bullsh*t is being bandied around re: the emperor's new cables. We'll all be blu-tacking 2p coins to the ceiling next. There is only one man who can hear stuff the rest of us can't and that's Derek Acorah. Ain't that right Sam?
Ian Munro - MemberNot good enough - have to be wired in directly, you're gong to have to change the cables by hand.
I thought about that, but decided that would be open to the accusation that there was then too much time between hearings so comparison wouldn't be possible?
I'm happy with that parameter...
I'm also fairly confident that I woudl be able to tell the difference between my setup (not expensive btw) on its low-end real hifi stand and on the floor.
Wouldn't argue about that - speaker stands compared to no speaker stands does make a difference. There's genuine science behind that though. 🙂
hands-down guarantee that I can tell the difference between my old £1/m speaker cable and the QED anniversary silver £5/m stuff I replaced it with.
But might that not be explained by:
the obvious - resistance,
capacitance and inductance
Don't think anyone is claiming that there is no difference at all between any speaker cables, just that a lot of the claims of the more expensive ones are bullshit.
[i]I'm happy with that parameter...[/i]
You're happy with the switch or the manual?
Ian Munro - MemberSounds good, whereabouts are you?
Please describe the room, the equipment and the test process.
Hatfield, Herts.
The room's an Anechoic chamber about 6ft by 8 of usable space I'd guess. The equipment would be any sound equipment you'd care to bring along. I'd supply some sort of 'black box' to switch between the two sets of speaker cables. You'd choose whatever ever bit of music you like. I use a random number generator to select which bit of speaker wire get's switched into the circuit, you listen to the music and tell me which you think it is. I note your choice, and we repeat the test 10 times. You're allowed to listen to the music with either wire before the test starts, but you won't be told which is which.
Aha. That would mean disassembling my entire kit and finding transport there and back (I don't drive). Then setting it all back up again when I get home. BIG faff. I thought you were going to provide the kit! Anyway, I'd certainly be VERY wary about running my NAIM boxes with dodgy cheapo wire - if anything went wrong it'd invalidate the warranty.
Although I hate the idea of missing out on the chance of an easy 500 knicker...
Mr Woppit... unfortunately that appears to contradict that other quote you posted from the founder of NAIM...
It doesn't seem to matter how the bundle (of copper) is drawn, single direction or mixed direction, but as soon as the insulation is
extruded onto the bundle, the directionality is established. This
means that one can mark the insulation and it will always be the right
way round.
This states that it doesn't matter what the cables are like beforehand, but when the insulation is applied, it affects the cables in the same way...
Whereas the new quote says
We listen to a sample of all our cables, to determine directionality, before manufacture
It appears NAIM are a little confused about what it is they actually do...
:oD