What about the kids of working class families growing up in Hemel Hempstead? My previous car is now being driven around their manor. Don’t their health matter?
A good argument for extending ULEZ to the whole of the Greater London Urban Area. It would have been much better for that car to have been moved on far away from the urban sprawl of London... and you'd probably have got a better price for it as well.
we shouldn’t be doing ULEZ… as it has nothing to do with climate change
Climate change is not the only problem we have to solve.
encouraging people to scrap perfectly good cars
They're not perfectly good. They're among the dirtiest cars on the road.
Someone like WBAC or Motorway should setup a specific programme where they take your non compliant car and an optional payment and give you a compliant one. The non compliant ones get shifted elsewhere in the country, and the payment or the difference in car value covers any losses. People and dealers in the rest of the country get stock of decent cars, people in London may end up down a grand or two but someone does the legwork of finding a suitable car.
What about the kids of working class families growing up in Hemel Hempstead? My previous car is now being driven around their manor. Don’t their health matter?
A good argument for extending ULEZ to the whole of the Greater London Urban Area.
Ulez has been extended to the whole of the Greater London area. That has nothing to do with Hemel Hempstead which is actually north of Watford, so therefore in the North of England as far as I am concerned.
It might be a good argument for extending it to the whole country though. No one has come up with a convincing argument why it shouldn't be imo.
Obviously it would mean that there would be no possibility of collecting revenue if it was extended to the whole country, so I can see why it might not be attractive to some politicians.
That's just a "trade in", isn't it? Any dealer would do that for you.
That has nothing to do with Hemel Hempstead which is actually north of Watford, so therefore in the North of England as far as I am concerned.
It's in the Greater London Urban Area, but outside the administration of the London Mayor.
It might be a good argument for extending it to the whole country though.
No, air quality in the Yorkshire Dales (for example) is not the same problem as it is in Hemel Hempstead, or the GLA.
And you'd also have had nowhere to sell your old car to, as it happens.
What do you mean “real reason”? I have always pointed out that ulez has significantly reduced the value of peoples cars, which often represents a big investment.
Did you assume that I was only speaking on behalf of other people and not myself?
Perhaps it will come as a shock to you to discover that I am also actually working class?
Give over. You got less for your BMW than you wanted, and have spent hours dissembling.
It might be a good argument for extending it to the whole country though. No one has come up with a convincing argument why it shouldn’t be imo.
- London has the best transport infrastructure in the UK. 90% of everywhere else is rather rubbish.
- London has the highest population density of anywhere in the UK
- London has (by far) the worst air quality in the UK on an annual basis despite the wind from the channel flow and the Thames.
- London has some of the worst congestion of anywhere in the UK despite the available infrastructure.
- London has the highest per capita income of anywhere in the UK
The effect of ULEZ in other cities will cause more problems to more people with fewer results on air pollution. As more cars become electric, air pollution in other places will improve naturally - there's less need to speed it along.
Give over. You got less for your BMW than you wanted, and have spent hours dissembling.
You also saved a ton of money on tax and fuel despite knowing that Diesel was a dirty choice. You made an economic decision at the expense of others, as did many other people. Christ, Maggie Thatcher knew in the early 90s that focusing on just CO2 was the wrong thing to do and said so. I knew, others knew.
People bought Diesels to save money - end of.
I sold my car to him for £1.5k, it was easily worth £3k before ulez.
I’m not a car dealer but even if you’d put it on eBay you’d have got 4-5 times that, which would have let you do a straight swap for a petrol version. Whoever you sold that car to ripped you off.
Then you went ahead and bought another diesel, even though a diesel in the ULEZ carries a premium. You even admit to paying over the odds because the guy needed the cash.
Not only that, but if you were driving it every day as you suggest and it only has 14k miles on it, you are exactly the person the scheme is targeting - you do short journeys with a cold engine that could easily be walked or cycled.
And then you have the temerity to complain about ULEZ.
London has (by far) the worst air quality in the UK on an annual basis despite the wind from the channel flow and the Thames.
Not according to the WHO figures, not even in the top 10
Plenty of other UK cities need something akin to ULEZ (the clean air zones are a start)... that doesn't mean the whole of the UK needs the same measures, at the same time. Or that they have the same alternatives to car travel available. Greater Manchester dragging its heels is a bad sign... next to nothing being done in Cardiff & Swansea an even worse one. London is leading the way, as it so often does.
London has (by far) the worst air quality in the UK on an annual basis despite the wind from the channel flow and the Thames.
Not according to the WHO figures, not even in the top 10
Where are the WHO figures ranking towns in the UK? everywhere else I could see seems to have London in the top 10 UK cities for air pollution
The WHO database is all over the place - if you filter by year and normalise by population, London is ALWAYS in the top 10 for every possible type of emission and it's gotten worse, year on year since records were kept, despite the VAST investment in infrastructure.
IQAIR gives a much more precise example of what's happening and shows in real time what's going on and allows for weather vs. quality measures.
Maybe you would of got £2k of the GLA!
People bought Diesels to save money – end of.
Actually no, I bought my first diesel in 2004 to reduce my CO2 emissions from my driving. I didn't know about NOx emissions at the time, and no-one was talking about how bad they were. It didn't save me money as the diesel ended up costing twice the petrol I nearly bought.
Could be a pain if I want to drive to Heathrow…
How much would the drive to Heathrow cost? Wouldn't you just pay the extra £12.50? It's basically the cost of a sandwich and coffee in the airport Pret.
I've got a friend who's been helping a relative find a new car. Acting like he's got no choice but to spend £15k on a new car because his non-compliant one leaves the drive once a week. He could just keep it and use the saved money to pay for 20 years worth of ULEZ charges.
How much would the drive to Heathrow cost? Wouldn’t you just pay the extra £12.50?
Yeah. I'm either on expenses or spending so much on a family trip that £25 won't make a dent!
Greater Manchester dragging its heels is a bad sign… next to nothing being done in Cardiff & Swansea an even worse one
As I say I'm all in favour of ULEZ as long as it comes with good alternatives, but in Cardiff some big changes need doing before we can push people out of cars. Possible though, because Cardiff's really not very big.
Anyway, I wondered how bad the air actually is here. I found a WG page that says NOx in city centre is 34 microgrammes per litre outside the castle and only 7 on Newport Road which is a big wide shitty busy slow moving road out to the East. Also 34 in Manchester and similar numbers in London too.
Not according to the WHO figures, not even in the top 10
Ok great let's do them as well (once we've invested appropriately into some joined up public transport etc.).
Then you went ahead and bought another diesel, even though a diesel in the ULEZ carries a premium. You even admit to paying over the odds because the guy needed the cash.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The diesel I bought is compliant, what "premium" are you talking about?
I didn't admit to paying "over the odds" at all, wtf are you talking about? I thought £6.1 was actually a very fair price, I certainly didn't pay more than it was worth because some complete stranger that I have never met before needed the cash!
And then you have the temerity to complain about ULEZ.
And you have the temerity to comment on posts which you haven't bothered reading properly! Still, I guess when people are worked up about something they quickly skim read and only see what they want to see.
You also saved a ton of money on tax and fuel despite knowing that Diesel was a dirty choice.
I have no idea what this means either. What ton of money? I think there is about 60 quid difference in tax between the current and previous vehicle. I'm currently getting about 38 mpg in town from the compliant Peugeot and I was getting 34 mpg from the BMW (presumably that reflects the difference between a 2L engine and a 1.6L engine).
And why should I have thought that diesel was a "dirty choice"? I had no reason to assume that. The BMW had a low emissions euro 5 engine.
You made an economic decision at the expense of others, as did many other people. Christ, Maggie Thatcher knew .....
Jeezus...... I'm worse than Maggie Thatcher!!!
I bought the BMW estate off my guvnor because firstly, my Honda Accord estate was on its last legs and wasn't going to pass the MOT and I was desperate for a replacement, secondly the BMW estate was a similar size to the Honda estate so I knew that I could just about get 3 metre lengths of timber in it and doors/worktops on the roof rack, and thirdly he was selling it a very good price and I knew it was sound because I paid a mechanic to go through it with a fine tooth combe.
I didn't buy it because it was a diesel car, it just happened to be a diesel car, estate cars generally are. And yes of course I consider costs, why on earth do you think that I should have a limitless supply of money available to cover motoring costs?
What I hadn't factored in was the possibility that I would be accused of being worse than Thatcher 4 years later and be expected to justify myself before a self-righteous stw jury for whom motoring costs is no issue.
And you have the temerity
Oh stop. If it's got to point where people say 'you have the temerity to..' and they aren't joking, then the thread's completely ****ed up. Walk away, for all our sakes.
You are entitled to your opinion molgrips but I will continue to challenge nonsense like this:
Then you went ahead and bought another diesel, even though a diesel in the ULEZ carries a premium.
There is no ulez charge on compliant vehicles. I very obviously didn't buy another non compliant diesel vehicle. ffs
Edit: I have just realised how long my previous post was, why were you even reading it mol..... just so that you can complain how you don't like reading what I post?
what “premium” are you talking about?
That in general a diesel variant is more expensive than the equivalent petrol model (due to added cost of turbocharger, DPF, SCR etc). It’s also a poor choice for short trips as it’ll be at its most polluting, has a DPF which will never be able to regenerate, and will never get warm.
I think I would have more sympathy if you hadn’t admitted that you use the car to go a tiny distance (on the basis that the BMW was at least 12 years old, was “driven every day”, and was sold with 14,000 miles on the clock.)
That’s an average journey length of 1.5 miles.
I’ve got a friend who’s been helping a relative find a new car. Acting like he’s got no choice but to spend £15k on a new car because his non-compliant one leaves the drive once a week. He could just keep it and use the saved money to pay for 20 years worth of ULEZ charges.
Yep, neighbours have a euro5 motorhome. For the half a dozen trips a year they do it makes far more sense to pay £150pa to cover it than a 5-figure sum to get something similar that's euro6.
I didn’t buy it because it was a diesel car, it just happened to be a diesel car, estate cars generally are. And yes of course I consider costs, why on earth do you think that I should have a limitless supply of money available to cover motoring costs?
My point was that all you considered was what it cost and what it carried, you didn't consider other costs or effects and the reason for that was because those effects cost YOU nothing. Now, with the ULEZ, people will have to consider those effects because they will cost YOU money.
All the information on diesels and their emissions was available for anyone that wanted to look and has been for decades. Some people continued to make informed decisions, despite the additional cost to them in Tax and Fuel.
My estate car is petrol. I've never bought a diesel for this very reason and when I wanted to save money on fuel, I drove less. The reason for the ubiquity of diesel estate cars is not that estates are better as diesels, it's that many people made the same economic/CCtax/size decision as you and there are more of them available for that reason.
There is no ulez charge on compliant vehicles. I very obviously didn’t buy another non compliant diesel vehicle. ffs
No, but the price of a complaint euro 6 diesel will be higher as a result of the ULEZ, so one way or another - you're still paying a price.
it’s gotten worse, year on year since records were kept, despite the VAST investment in infrastructure.
Every graph I have seen, excluding the lockdown periods, shows a consistent trend of improving air quality in London, one which was marginally accelerated when the first extension took place, as EL has pointed out a number of times we are getting there naturally through the effluxion of time and the ULEZ hardly moves the dial.
The unfairness of penalizing vehicles that the government incentivized people to buy just adds insult to injury.
I think I would have more sympathy if you hadn’t admitted that you use the car to go a tiny distance (on the basis that the BMW was at least 12 years old, was “driven every day”, and was sold with 14,000 miles on the clock.)
That’s an average journey length of 1.5 miles.
LOL! Sorry for the confusion....my average car journey are of course more than 1.5 miles! (Last year I drove as far as Birmingham to do a days work on a couple of occasions) Yes the BMW was indeed registered in 2011, it had 114k on the clock, apologies if there was a typo.
No, but the price of a complaint euro 6 diesel will be higher as a result of the ULEZ, so one way or another – you’re still paying a price.
Well yes, I made the point concerning ulez pushing up prices. But I am not sure that isn't also the case for compliant petrol Peugeot 308 estates, and you try finding a petrol Peugeot estate in auto trader. It was either a Peugeot, Astra, or Focus estate. I got the impression that the Peugeot would be the most suitable for the role of both a van and a car, the days when I could both are long gone.
I have no reason to believe that a euro 6 diesel engine is any worse for the environment than a petrol engine. I assume that they would be banned if they were. Are you telling me that they are?
it had 114k on the clock, apologies if there was a typo.
D'oh! So much for that line of argument... 🤣
penalizing vehicles that the government incentivized people to buy just adds insult to injury.
gOrDoN bRoWn ToLd Me tO bUy a DiEseL
You are entitled to your opinion molgrips but I will continue to challenge nonsense like this:
Try to challenge it nicely without dragging the thread through the mud. Consider a) if it's worth it and b) if we all want to read pages of it.
That’s just a “trade in”, isn’t it? Any dealer would do that for you.
Dealers are generally local and have small numbers of cars. A national network would have access to more inventory from elsewhere where presumably supply of ULEZ compliant cars is greater. I'm sure local dealers in London are trying to source them as well but they'd be competing for stock and that's being distributed across London. And there's probably an extra cost for them buying them to trade.
The difference between this and normal car buying is that this is likely to be forced purchase for a lot of people rather than a discretionary or opportunity purchase.
Think of the wider society, the kids of working class families growing up with the pollution in outer London. Policy should be set to help them, not everything should be about protecting the wealth of retired folk.
No, air quality in the Yorkshire Dales (for example) is not the same problem as it is in Hemel Hempstead, or the GLA.
Neither is air quality an issue in many of the outlying areas of Greater London it's been extended to or many of the completely rural roads over moors administratively inside Greater Manchester.
I have no reason to believe that a euro 6 diesel engine is any worse for the environment than a petrol engine. I assume that they would be banned if they were. Are you telling me that they are?
If you continue using meaningless marketing terms in a question how do you expect a meaningful answer?
A diesel produces more NoX and less CO2 so the former might kill a few local people vs the latter killing hundreds of millions of non local people...
The limits are here... ULEZ is Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel non of these address the CO2 (CO is carbon monoxide)
So a Euro 6 diesel produces the same max NoX but 1/2 the carbon monoxide of the petrol and produces considerably less CO2 on a longer journey. CO2 is measured across a whole manufacturer and they can trade between them.
EV's in urban environments produce around 1/2 the particulate matter (PM) of either ICE but it's not necessarily the better 1/2 (brakes and tyres) for people.
Had they brought in ULEZ with Euro 5 it has less NoX (but euro 5 is already low) and lots of older diesels would have been exempt. (January 2011 on vs September 2015) but ALL the diesels produce less CO2/unit of power than the latest petrol...
but the CO2 is not immediately killing people on our Island... rather people in areas more affected by climate change.
Source AA
Euro 4 emission limits (petrol)
CO – 1.0 g/km
HC – 0.10 g/km
NOx – 0.08
PM – no limit
Euro 4 emission limits (diesel)
CO – 0.50 g/km
HC+ NOx – 0.30 g/km
NOx – 0.25 g/km
PM – 0.025 g/km
Euro 5 emission limits (petrol)
CO – 1.0 g/km
HC - 0.10 g/km
NOx – 0.06 g/km
PM – 0.005 g/km (direct injection only)
Euro 5 emission limits (diesel)
CO – 0.50 g/km
HC+ NOx – 0.23 g/km
NOx – 0.18 g/km
PM – 0.005 g/km
PM – 6.0x10 ^11/km
Euro 6 emission limits (petrol)
CO – 1.0 g/km
HC – 0.10 g/km
NOx – 0.06 g/km
PM – 0.005 g/km (direct injection only)
PM – 6.0x10 ^11/km (direct injection only)
Euro 6 emission limits (diesel)
CO – 0.50 g/km
HC+ NOx – 0.17 g/km
NOx – 0.08 g/km
PM – 0.005 g/km
PM – 6.0x10 ^11/km
I have no reason to believe that a euro 6 diesel engine is any worse for the environment than a petrol engine. I assume that they would be banned if they were. Are you telling me that they are?
If you continue using meaningless marketing terms in a question how do you expect a meaningful answer?
I use meaningless marketing terms because I am not chemist/internal combustion engine designer. Haven't you also used the same term, ie, "euro 6 diesel engine"?
The AA figures are interesting though - thanks for that 👍
EV’s in urban environments produce around 1/2 the particulate matter
Id like to know how true that is, a well driven EV shouldnt use the brakes much as regenerative braking should take care of it. I suppose the flip side is a badly driven EV probably produces as much brake dust and even more tyre wear due to enhanced acceleration. EV acceleration should probably be capped to be honest.
There are some absolute f****** jokes.
It’s like Reading (Lab) and Wokingham (Con for the last few centuries, now a Lib lead coalition as of this year) are having a competition to see who can spaff the most money on the worst cycle path
It’d be better if they got rid of most of the cycle paths then I won’t get ‘there’s a cycle path next to you’ screamed out of an SUV window by some tubby bint.
Oh and the cyclists dismount sign on the A4 Railway bridge towards Woodley can **** off.
Sorry for the drift.
Return from Hols yesterday and shortly from home at a crossroads holy ****! I counted 6 ULEZ signs and 4 cameras together with traffic lights, lighting, road signs, bollards and pedestrian barriers. You can hardly see the signs from certain directions but blimey they are determined to catch people or cause an accident while people try to work out what’s going on.
what a mess.
The unfairness of penalizing vehicles that the government incentivized people to buy
@mefty what vehicles were those? The last vehicle specific incentive I remember was charge point grants and before that LPG conversion grants on petrol back in about 2005.
Dealers are generally local and have small numbers of cars. A national network would have access to more inventory from elsewhere where presumably supply of ULEZ compliant cars is greater. I’m sure local dealers in London are trying to source them as well but they’d be competing for stock and that’s being distributed across London.
40% of all UK used car sales are through franchised dealers. That number is probably higher in London. There aren't many Arthur Daleys around any more!
There's no problem with getting ULEZ compliant inventory: it's only a tiny number of cars on the street that aren't compliant already, and dealers all have access to the same massive auctions across the UK.
I just don't get what problem you're trying to solve by coming up with some new scheme to help people sell and buy cars...
London has the best transport infrastructure in the UK. 90% of everywhere else is rather rubbish.
Inner London does, it's absolutely pants out at the edges (unless you want to go into inner London)
Try working out how to get between 2 of the London hospitals now inside ULEZ by public transport...
Try Google.....
All these petty, selfish problems are insignificant compared to the health of children. And I don't even have kids.
Inner London does, it’s absolutely pants out at the edges (unless you want to go into inner London)
That’s a fair point, actually. You’d have to go in and then out again to make best use of the network. Perhaps that’s something to submit to the mayor?
Try working out how to get between 2 of the London hospitals now inside ULEZ by public transport…
Ok, Tooting St Georges to St Heliers Hospital; 24 minutes by tube and bus according to tfl journey planner.
Epsom hospital (which is out in the sticks ) to St George’s (which is in urban Tooting and a a major hospital) 54 minutes, again tfl.
Ernielynch
I use meaningless marketing terms because I am not chemist/internal combustion engine designer.
I know you aren't and neither are most people.. yet they keep getting told "better for the environment"
Haven’t you also used the same term, ie, “euro 6 diesel engine”?
Well that's a "standard" ... but fair point.
The point really is "better in what way" and that better in one way can be worse in another way.
Typically the issue is a matter of where/when and what/who and there is no simple formula and "environmentalists" and especially those selling products will try and use this to deceive you....
A simple example is say global climate change vs local air quality vs pollution in a far away place
Climate change will mainly or at least the worse affects will be in other countries where people have different passports or whatever) and the added CO2 from ULEZ will only have a small DIRECT affect but more likely a huge indirect affect as if a rich nation like the UK demonstrates it cares more about it's local population than tens or hundreds of millions of people dying elsewhere
We can reduce our local pollution in some ways by increasing pollution elsewhere (usually a developing nation) such as mining for EV batteries.. not to mention general pollution mining to make new cars then transporting raw and intermediate materials around the world.
Not really specific to ULEZ but more generally there are also those who really don't care about humans either at all or are just more worried about their pet (ironic) term of Pandas or Lesser Crested Grebe's.
Ultimately the biggest and most pressing global issue for human life by far is climate change.
I'll assume you are more worried about people than lesser crested grebe's and you don't value a UK passport life above others.
The simplest way to modify your question is to ask something like "what short term effect will this have on climate change directly or indirectly" rather than get given broad answers about "the environment".
such as mining for EV batteries
Just FYI but far more cobalt is used in the refining of petrol and diesel than ever went into EV batteries, which are trending towards cobalt-free anyway.
Epsom hospital (which is out in the sticks ) to St George’s (which is in urban Tooting and a a major hospital) 54 minutes, again tfl.
google maps is telling me 1hr but in the ballpark vs 30 mins by car though you also did the in/out of London thing as well.
One of the reasons for asking that is if you were a hospital porter or nurse that originally worked at Epsom and ended up working at St George's (as they are part of the same trust) starting or finishing a shift at some unholy hour you are pretty screwed... or simply a patient turns up at one and gets sent to the other - it doesn't seem beyond the realms of some sort of planning to actually have a shuttle bus between them ...
