MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Sometimes struggle to understand the world....
My wife is swimming the channel this summer & raising money for a medical research based charity. To do the swim you have to have a medical questionaire filled by your GP. Took a 10 minute appointment to fill in and she left with form so no other paperwork. GP charged £85 "administration fee". She explained why she needed it, non profit making - good cause etc & nothing doing- no reduction possible. Has to be filled by your gp so over a barrel.
By coinsidence her morbidly obese work colleague had her 4th appointment of the year with the same doctor-frequent flyer due to diabetes & knee problems brought on by lifestyle. Obviously no charge.
Whilst I don't think I'd want to see charging to see your gp, even if it is for self inflicted reasons, charging those that try to take care of themselves & don't give them much hassle for their per patient based income seems a bit harsh!
Rubbish rant over - I thank you for reading!
Rubbish rant over - I thank you for reading!
Not rubbish at all, i know exactly where you’re coming from. Do you not know another medical professional who can "tick the boxes", to save you being fleeced?
Diabetics get free prescriptions and obesity is one of the symptoms of side effects, maybe your wife could have done a charity event that didn't involve any cost for her. Or maybe you could forget about the charge and just think about the money your raising.
What sofatester said.......not a "rubbish rant" imo. The £85 "administration fee" shows where her GP's priorities are, time to change GP I reckon - I wouldn't want him or her dealing with my health issues.
Can't see the connection with the "morbidly obese work colleague" though 😕
Drac - tuther way around for type 2.
Not really the point really though - just not sure why GPs feel the need to charge for this sort of stuff- it's not like their skint! As a teacher I fill in countless passport form for the scrotes I teach - should I be charging £5 a pop for my snow day slush fund?
So 10 minute appointment. Nearly twice the target 6 minute appointment time. For a non-medical (i.e. non-NHS) task. £85?
How much do you reckon two GP appointments costs the NHS?
Earnie - tenous link I'll admit but I guess I was trying to say some folk use more than their share of a "resource" such as gp we all pay for, especially for what could be described as self inflicted reasons rather than sheer bad luck, & when you only bother them every now and again and have to pay for your share it seems a little harsh.
How much do you reckon two GP appointments costs the NHS?
He wasn't asking how much two GP appointments costs the NHS. He was asking why one appointment cost his wife £85.
[i]Not really the point really though - just not sure why GPs feel the need to charge for this sort of stuff-[/i]
Because your not going for your health, your going for something voluntary why should they take up appointment slot and not receive anything from the premiary care trust? I've signed dozens of passport applications too, you could charge if you wanted too but they'd ask someone else same as your pupils would.
just not sure why GPs feel the need to charge for this sort of stuff
maybe they are busy enough dealing with actual health problems?
I fill in countless passport form for the scrotes I teach
a passport just requires you to take responsibilty for them being who they say they are, which hopefully you are relatively sure of.
A medical form could be used to push legal responsbilty onto the GP if anything happened to the OPs wife.
[i]He was asking why one appointment cost his wife £85. [/i]
The surgery receives money for the primary care trust for appointments they do, by taking up 2 slot times to fill in a form so some one can swim they loose money.
Drac - tuther way around for type 2.
chicken and egg actually. Not all type 2s are fat and not all fat folk are type 2s.
What if they have been fat for 20yrs and then get type 2- obviously could be a coinsidence.
Yeah but she still has diabetes so needs to see a Dr, your wife didn't need to swim the channel.
What if they have been fat for 20yrs and then get type 2
you'd still be charged £85 for your unnecessary appointment.
how often someone visits a doctor for a medical reason is irrelevant, that's the GP's job after all. Maybe your GP is not in a position to waive the fee, he/she is an employee after all.
Good luck to your mrs, hope she manages to raise plenty for a worthwhile cause.
maybe they are busy enough dealing with actual health problems?
Are you suggesting that my GP isn't busy "dealing with actual health problems" ? .... because there is absolutely no way that he would charge £85 as an "administration fee".
It usual takes a week's wait to see him - and I don't think it's cause he's busy "filling in forms".
In fact last time I saw him I got a freebie. I asked him if he could recommend me a digital blood glucose monitor, he said "hang on a minute" went out of his room, came back and gave me a brand new boxed one.
convert: obesity leads to type 2 diabetes, but diabetes can also lead to obesity.
And not all type 2 s are fat. My wife is positively skinny. (Or at least she was before she got pregnant 🙂 )
[i]because there is absolutely no way that he would charge £85 as an "administration fee". [/i]
But we know it's not an administration fee hence the "" it's completing the form to say the person is medically fit to swim across cold waters for a long distance not just saying the photos is a likeness and yes that's who they are.
I got a guy who was practising for swimming the English channel last year, he got into trouble and an ambulance was called. He was recovering when we got there and found it funny when we pulled up with lights and sirens on, laughing as we pulled up was a huge mistake. Then having the cheek to ask me do a medical and sign his forms was his next mistake, he said he'd pay though. I asked him what he GP was charging, it was about £65. I told him if I do it it'll £64.99 and they'll be no refunds when he finds it may not be valid.
The GP is perfectly entitled to charge for this. It is a private consultation, NHS does not provide these certificates.
having said that a GP I used for a medical certificate for a charity thing waived his fee. Gp is perfectly entitled to chage but is a bit mean to do so.
Gp is perfectly entitled to chage but is a bit mean to do so.
Very true but like every profession and in other walks of life, some are greedy barstewards and others have a sense of decency and morals.
My GP for instance fits into the g...b... category as he charged me £37 for the 2 minutes it took to complete and sign the form to say I was fit enough to do my job. Not an easy task according to the secretary as he had to locate and analyse my medical records. A total of two visits in the 10 years I have been registered at his surgery (broken toe and a simple eye infection) must have taxed him severely. 😥
gp's are shit i think unless u have the sniffles!
they are overpaid lazy people who are so interested in there profession that they rush u through your time slot.
i was told i had kidney stones 2 years ago!! i was told to drink 5 litres a day and that they should pass within 2 weeks.
2 week later, still no pain from passing them, went back and he said o maybe drink more (i said are you a real doctor) haha yes ofcourse.
2 weeks later still nothing so i went to the hospital instead as the pain was worsening.
TURNED OUT I HAD DOUBLE GROIN HERNIAS!!!
glad i went to my fully qualified doctor!
he then tried charging me for the forms to claim incapacity benefits for the 2 months of work.
i laugh and said your joking! after telling me i had kidney stones for a month and half, he said easy mistake, signed it and i change doctor after that!
although this sounds completly wrong.....
your wife shouldnt pay to have these things signed as she is doing this for sick people.
could you not pay for it out of the donations as its all for the cause anyhow, not saying fill your car up with petrol and taking the piss but it also shouldnt cost you anything other than your time
is that harsh?
nick
I think what the NHS and most of the UK public need to get their head round, is that it's a HEALTH service, a service to get and keep people HEALTHY. It's not about 'bothering the doc only if I'm really really ill'. Therefore in my opinion, there should be no charge for people who require medical certificates for sporting events etc, such as the OP. As they are keeping healthy by participating in sports.
<sitting in France>
What so if you do something for charity everyone should give their time up for free. No! His wife chose to do this she could have done something that didn't incur costs like this, so she has to accept or do something else.
Unlucky Woody, my forms were signed for free I'm fortunate we have a good close relationship with the GPs up here. That said some of my other staff had to pay with the same GPs, guess it must be charm.
By coinsidence her morbidly obese work colleague had her 4th appointment of the year with the same doctor-frequent flyer due to diabetes & knee problems brought on by lifestyle
Bit like people that keep falling off bicycles & hurting themselves then?
What so if you do something for charity everyone should give their time up for free. No!
I think the inference is that the GP made a judgement call. In my opinion given what I can gather from the OP he made the wrong one. He has discretion and he didnt exercise it.
Spending a few minutes completing a form would not have impacted negatively on other patients nor added more than a trivial delay.
Regardless of what some others on here have posted as a "paid up member of the human race" he should have signed and not charged.
[i]Regardless of what some others on here have posted as a "paid up member of the human race" he should have signed and not charged. [/i]
Sorry but no he doesn't have to, he can choose to or he can charge for a wasted appointment.
[i]Bit like people that keep falling off bicycles & hurting themselves then? [/i]
It's more like those who chose a lifestyle swimming the English channel, get into problems and expect everyone to bend over backwards to help them as it's for charitee.
Bit like people that keep falling off bicycles & hurting themselves then?
But thats a bit of a minefield isnt it?
At what point does your choice of sport and the benefits you accrue outweigh the potential cost to the taxpayer of over exercise or injury.
Sorry but no he doesn't have to, he can choose to or he can charge for a wasted appointment.
I didnt say he did have to but what we have to do doesnt always dictate what we "do" do.(!)
We dont have to donate to earthquake funds, we dont have to help elderly people if they slip on the ice. We dont have to do a lot of things.
He has discretion and he failed to exercise it. Thats a poor decision.
It's more like those who chose a lifestyle swimming the English channel, get into problems and expect everyone to bend over backwards to help them as it's for charitee.
Thats a different argument. If people get into difficulty then its not the fact that they are doing it for charity that gets them rescued it is because their life is in danger. If they are poorly prepared then they should be criticised, or even made to pay the costs.
We dont look at their motives before sending out the emergency services.
By blaming the GP's aren't we to a large extent letting the insurance companies that demand this tat off the hook somewhat?
People seem happy to give comapanies large amounts of cash to 'Cycle Bolivia' or whatever. These rides are, ostensibly, for charity but they are often run by 'for profit' organisations and the recipient charities have to set high minimum sponsorship values to cover their costs.
If I was doing one of these rides shoudl I expect my GP to sign my passprot application and give me all the jabs and prescriptions for free as I'm doign it 'for charity'? I think not and the same applies to the Channel swim - yes, it's disappointing but it's just part of the 'cost' of doing the swim (like the fuel for the accompanying boat etc).
If I was doing one of these rides shoudl I expect my GP to sign my passprot application and give me all the jabs and prescriptions for free as I'm doign it 'for charity'? I think not and the same applies to the Channel swim - yes, it's disappointing but it's just part of the 'cost' of doing the swim (like the fuel for the accompanying boat etc).
But you have now extended a "signature" which I understand is all that was required by the OP. Into "prescriptions and injections" this is different and I would have expected actual costs to be passed on. However we are talking about a "signature" this adds zero marginal cost to the GP and in practical terms is a service that IMO should have been made discretionalry.
In terms of other costs such as fuel etc often these are donated free however the mechanics of speaking to providers is often more complex than turning up at the pump and asking for it! Providers at the point of delivery seldom have the discretion to donate fuel, car hire, waive costs etc.
The GP had IMO an easy choice to make. He made the wrong one.
and the surprise is what here? doctors love fees. ask a pilot.
given the frequency of posts castigating the nhs i'd have thought there be a queue of people positively staining themselves at the thought of paying to see the doctor.
i'd say more but i have to go off and get me some (private) healthcare where in addition, me and my provider will be furthering our master plan for our private drop in clinic for when the tories sort the nhs right out.
threads like this, an inspiration.
You know all the complaints about "waste" in the NHS? Had the GP not charged then this would have been an example of exactly that.
Oh and 10 mins to fill in a questionnaire is a bit more than a signature.
You know all the complaints about "waste" in the NHS? Had the GP not charged then this would have been an example of exactly that.
When people refer to "waste in the NHS" I think they are thinking of bigger fish!
[i]But you have now extended a "signature" which I understand is all that was required by the OP[/i]
Which explains your lack to grasp the point, he's signing to say she is medically fit to swim which makes him responsible some way if it goes wrong.
[i]even made to pay the costs.[/i]
Same, it costs a GP to give up their time so they should have to pay it.
but really £85! £20 ok but £85! he is already being paid and the fact he could do it in a free time slot instead of taking up a slot for a patient seems like a good money for him?
Just take the £85 out of the sponsorship ££££, simples.
😉
[i]but really £85! £20 ok but £85! he is already being paid and the fact he could do it in a free time slot instead of taking up a slot for a patient seems like a good money for him? [/i]
But someone could have had an appointment then, you do realise the practice gets paid for appointments and seeing people?
If you going to do something for charity don't whine about the costs.
Does the money go to the GP or does it go to the practice that employs him or her? The issue is that if he or she isn't seeing a patient then that means they are not earning income from the practice. This income needs to be replaced hence the fee. It should also be noted that the money that needs to be recouped is the cost of two appointments which will be significantly more than the wages earned by said GP in 10mins.
Which explains your lack to grasp the point, he's signing to say she is medically fit to swim which makes him responsible some way if it goes wrong.
Are you now saying (as I pointed out before) that the fee in some way reflects some risk? Does the fact that he has charged a fee absolve him of responsibility if things go wrong. Does it pay his indemnity insurance?
The answer is no. The fee is immaterial to both his time or the risk. He determines risk based on the patients records and his judgement. The same as he does when he prescribes a drug to the next patient that comes through the door.
I suspect you have failed to grasp the point.
[i]Does the money go to the GP or does it go to the practice that employs him or her?[/i]
Well the practice is essentially a business with overheads to pay including wages, some will go to him and the rest will go into the business to cover the costs as you say of 2 lost appointments that could have been used by the sick people. Even maybe a fat diabetic.
[i]Does it pay his indemnity insurance?[/i]
Well it could be argued it does as they will pay malpractice insurance.
[i]He determines risk based on the patients records and his judgement. The same as he does when he prescribes a drug to the next patient that comes through the door.[/i]
Which they also get paid for.
There is something pretty amazing about the NHS and we may waste shed loads of money on it but I don't really mind. It seems to work pretty well on the whole. As a nation we say if you are ill we will look after you and it will be free. Now I know it's lacking in places but the main principal is that if you are ill the NHS will care for you. Free Health Care for anybody.
Now you may be fat with type II because you've eaten more dinners than you should. You might have cancer because you've smoked. You may even smacked off your tits because you're a hopeless addict but as a nation we put that asside and commit to look after anybody regardless of blame or reason. There is a great amount of dignity in that.
People often say the NHS could work better but problem is nobody knows how. It's massive, huge, the only other organistaion that is bigger is the Chinese Peoples Army so not a great comparison.
Take comfort in the fact that you may have had to pay £85 but your wife is healthy. Better to be healthy and pay £85 and be ill (even self inflicted)
If you put a spin on it, she doesn't need Health care but if she did it would be free and it's better not to need Health care.
Take it out of the sponsorship money but I suspect you won't.
It kinda reminds me of one evening as I sat moaning to my dad (Yorkshireman) about the amount of tax I pay he he quite quickly shot me down saying "If you don't earn it you don't pay it"
Long reasoned rant over.
Well I think Tiger put the point across very well.
Don't some GPs earn 200k nowadays? which makes 85 quid is a bit weak, surely the cost that's levied should be noticeable to the poor bugger's wallet, something like £200 would be nearer the mark I'd say. Gold stethoscopes dont grow on trees ffs
There's a handful that will enthft but average is around £100k but a lot will be under that. They can boost their wages above what the primary care will pay them by signing forms like this but that's a lot of forms to make an extra £100k.
correction: gold-plated stethoscopes dont grow on trees ffs
My GP gave me the option of a 9 month wait for a referral or for a "small" fee he could write a referral letter enabling me to use my private health cover. I would have nutted him but couldn't see for all the glare from his smiling gold teeth.
But someone could have had an appointment then, you do realise the practice gets paid for appointments and seeing people?
thats what i mean, if it was organised to when it wasnt busy or taking up someones patient time. For example 5pm when he is going to go home, 10 mins for charity is hardly a big deal.
i would just take it out the money raised
done done
My GP gave me the option of a 9 month wait for a referral or for a "small" fee he could write a referral letter enabling me to use my private health cover.
Your health insurance would then pay the GPs referral fee - that's how it works
enfht - MemberDon't some GPs earn 200k nowadays?
Nope - Income may be approaching that but they have a lot of costs to pay. Staff wages, running the premises etc etc. To get near that they will be emplying nurses to do screening and so on - thats £30 000pa off that. Net incomes under £100 k at best before tax and more likely £70K before tax. Still good money
If a GP is getting paid £100k per year I am sure they can afford to waiver a grossly disproportionate £85 charge for someone raising money for charity, afterall who pays the GP's wages anyway.
Tiger et al,
Don't get health and illness mixed up!
NHS is a health service, it should do more than looking after 'ill' people.
To all the people saying the doctor should have used their discretion re: the charge - they more than likely had no discretion, if their practice policy (set by the partners who own it) is to charge, they have to do it or they'll get a royal telling off. And I also assume that everyone saying it's wrong to charge at all for what amounts to a professional service regularly works for nothing themselves... (and no, I'm not a GP!).
Your health insurance would then pay the GPs referral fee - that's how it works
No that's not how it works, I checked and was told I would have to pay (Cigna).
correction: gold-plated stethoscopes dont grow on trees ffs
Right, so because GPs are paid a decent whack for the service they provide they shouldn't baulk at doing freebies - effectively stealing money from their practise funds?
he's signing to say she is medically fit to swim which makes him responsible some way if it goes wrong.
Exactly, on the basis of a ten minute chat he is signing off on something that could come back to bite him, potentially forcing a claim on his medical indemnity and damaging his professional reputation.
To look at another example of this, hospital doctors are paid a fee by funeral services for signing cremation forms, commonly referred to as "ash cash".
You may think that, since someone has died, they should give their time for free.
But they are signing off that they agree with the stated cause of death and that they will shoulder professional responsibility if misdeeds are later uncovered, despite often not knowing the full patient history and not being trained coroners.
And I also assume that everyone saying it's wrong to charge at all for what amounts to a professional service regularly works for nothing themselves..
No we dont. I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge. If they expected me to work for say half a day I may then request some fee to cover my expenses but it may depend on how I felt about the charity and how much "actual" income I would lose.
It is a judgement call. a few minutes does not really fall into the category you refer.
No that's not how it works, I checked and was told I would have to pay (Cigna).
I've never paid for various referrals for all members of the family [Bupa]
Perhaps a different insurer is needed?
Right, so because GPs are paid a decent whack for the service they provide they shouldn't baulk at doing freebies - effectively stealing money from their practise funds?
Stealing? 😆
NHS is a health service, it should do more than looking after 'ill' people.
One of the founding principles of the NHS is that it provides "free at the point of delivery" health care and that is [url= http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/nhscoreprinciples.aspx ]"[u]based on clinical need[/u], not ability to pay"[/url].
The OP had no clinical need so, as pointed out by many others, her consultation was private, not NHS.
Stealing? 😆
Well what is it when you decide not to bother charging a customer for your professional expertise at the expense of your own company, on company time and without your companies permission then? Perhaps embezzlement is closer? Certainly misconduct?
This is a can of worms but when all is said and done £85 seems excessive and downright greedy considering why the questionaire was required.
From The Royal College of General Practitioners
[i]GPs should tell patients in advance if they will be charged for a service and by how much. The BMA recommends fee levels but these are guidelines only and a doctor is not obliged to charge the suggested rates.[/i]
Unfortunately, as I'm not a member of the BMA I can't access the recommended fee page but I would suspect that £85 is higher than the guideline.
Exactly, on the basis of a ten minute chat he is signing off on something that could come back to bite him, potentially forcing a claim on his medical indemnity and damaging his professional reputation.
It is very unlikely that something would come back to bite him as he would not be guaranteeing that the patient is fit to do the swim, merely that in his/her professional opinion, to the best of his/her knowledge there is no past or present medical problem which could foreseeably be injurious or detrimental to the health of the patient whilst partaking in the activity.
LOL @ GrahamS - how many of you are reading this at work ? Thieving embezzlers the lot of you 😆
9 month wait for a "free" appointment versus a fee to get a next day appointment from the same specialist makes "free at point of delivery" a bit weak
£85 just doesn't cut it.
I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge.
Great - I'm sure there are plenty of charities who need their IT systems sorting out. Only a few months work for each. I bet they'll be dead pleased to find out surfer will do it all for free - very generous of you.
LOL @ GrahamS - how many of you are reading this at work ? Thieving embezzlers the lot of you
Absolutely. Misconduct too. Though I'm not giving you benefit of my professional expertise. I'm just slacking.
No we dont. I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge.
And what if someone came to you and said "Can you sign off this form to say that this PC is entirely safe and won't crash in the next 24 hours? It'll be used to run a life support system and if it crashes you may be held legally responsible. You've got ten minutes to examine the PC."
Would you do that for free?
[i]No we dont. I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge.[/i]
Advice is less what the Dr did but that's very noble of you not charging for saying use Avast.
[i]LOL @ GrahamS - how many of you are reading this at work ? Thieving embezzlers the lot of you [/i]
Have you tried browsing STW on our fabulous IT system? No chance.
[i] If they expected me to work for say half a day I may then request some fee to cover my expenses but it may depend on how I felt about the charity and how much "actual" income I would lose.[/i]
Let's say this wasn't a one off request, but a steady stream of random people you don't really know from different charities, who individually only took up 10 minutes a time, but collectively took half a day a week?
I dare say that the fees for various assesments / form fillings, etc are displayed somewhere in the surgery for all to see, so the fee should not have been a surprise.
As others have said, the service provided wasn't an NHS service, but a private service. If you don't like the fee either don't use the service or try to find someone else cheaper.
Boycott the doctors - that'll learn them
After a superb 2hr training ride and a great couple of lessons this morning I'm a bit more rational!
As I said in the original post, I don't understand the world sometimes. The world maybe perfectly rational – it’s probably just me!
As I see it, in my simplistic way, we the general populous pay through our taxes to have a healthcare professional in our midst. They are paid handsomely and no matter how you dress it up with bean counting bodies such as primary healthcare trusts it is us the taxpayers that fund their employ. In my naïve way I see them put there to help us out with their expertise with our health related needs. The need in this case was to cast general glance of a medical record & fill a form in, next time it might be help curing a case of genital herpes (I hope not for my sake!). I would also hope that someone in that field would admire, nay encourage, those who are in their care to partake in a healthy lifestyle. The doing-it-for-a charity element is a red herring – I’m not sure it should matter but the fact that it was not business related probably should. It may well be that “the system” can’t be that simplistic in its outlook but if so I feel it’s a shame – especially if you are the sort of person who does not waste you doctors time with sniffles and generally treat their time with respect.
Surfr that's well put and as to original post £85 is mental but they have the right to charge I can see why you first went WTF! though, very noble of you to repost you rethink.
Yes, we the taxpayers pay GPs for a whole lot of services set out on a big list called their contract. Signing forms of this type is not on that list (although genital herpes is) so you (and I) are not paying them to do it. They are therefore at liberty to charge what they like....
(£85 does seem a bit steep though, must have caught her on a bad day)
we the general populous pay through our taxes to have a healthcare professional in our midst.
indeed. But we pay for enough GPs to provide healthcare based on clinical need. If you want enough GPs to also handle all third-party form filling for free (at point of delivery) then you'll need to cough up extra taxes for more GPs and convince those that already think the NHS is costly and wasteful.
Oh and the GP is a her - it's funny how many make assumptions!
Let's say this wasn't a one off request, but a steady stream of random people you don't really know from different charities, who individually only took up 10 minutes a time, but collectively took half a day a week?
Then "lets say" it would be different. However that is extrapolation.
then you'll need to cough up extra taxes for more GPs and convince those that already think the NHS is costly and wasteful.
But you are assuming that the doctor does NOT treat another patient as a result of filling in a form. This is an unfair assumption.
Have you tried browsing STW on our fabulous IT system? No chance.
Really ! No problem at my place, I can even surf fleabay now..........errrr if I had any time of course, which I don't since none of these overpaid GP's turn out after dark 😆 😉
just back with my wallet the lighter but negotiated some nice wee discounts for myself along the way so not that bothered.
discussed this thread along the way and the question was raised. the op's wife goes for her swim. dies. pick your cause, heart failure anything you like. does the op sue?
and on another tack. i'm off to see the lawyer in the next couple of days about some not uncomplicated charity related business. will this lion of society waive his fee becuase it's for 'charidee'. hardly. and it'll be costing a sight more than 85 quid.
surfer - that form filling took up two appointment slots. Thats two appointment slots not available for NHS patients.