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Don't some GPs earn 200k nowadays? which makes 85 quid is a bit weak, surely the cost that's levied should be noticeable to the poor bugger's wallet, something like £200 would be nearer the mark I'd say. Gold stethoscopes dont grow on trees ffs
There's a handful that will enthft but average is around £100k but a lot will be under that. They can boost their wages above what the primary care will pay them by signing forms like this but that's a lot of forms to make an extra £100k.
correction: gold-plated stethoscopes dont grow on trees ffs
My GP gave me the option of a 9 month wait for a referral or for a "small" fee he could write a referral letter enabling me to use my private health cover. I would have nutted him but couldn't see for all the glare from his smiling gold teeth.
But someone could have had an appointment then, you do realise the practice gets paid for appointments and seeing people?
thats what i mean, if it was organised to when it wasnt busy or taking up someones patient time. For example 5pm when he is going to go home, 10 mins for charity is hardly a big deal.
i would just take it out the money raised
done done
My GP gave me the option of a 9 month wait for a referral or for a "small" fee he could write a referral letter enabling me to use my private health cover.
Your health insurance would then pay the GPs referral fee - that's how it works
enfht - MemberDon't some GPs earn 200k nowadays?
Nope - Income may be approaching that but they have a lot of costs to pay. Staff wages, running the premises etc etc. To get near that they will be emplying nurses to do screening and so on - thats £30 000pa off that. Net incomes under £100 k at best before tax and more likely £70K before tax. Still good money
If a GP is getting paid £100k per year I am sure they can afford to waiver a grossly disproportionate £85 charge for someone raising money for charity, afterall who pays the GP's wages anyway.
Tiger et al,
Don't get health and illness mixed up!
NHS is a health service, it should do more than looking after 'ill' people.
To all the people saying the doctor should have used their discretion re: the charge - they more than likely had no discretion, if their practice policy (set by the partners who own it) is to charge, they have to do it or they'll get a royal telling off. And I also assume that everyone saying it's wrong to charge at all for what amounts to a professional service regularly works for nothing themselves... (and no, I'm not a GP!).
Your health insurance would then pay the GPs referral fee - that's how it works
No that's not how it works, I checked and was told I would have to pay (Cigna).
correction: gold-plated stethoscopes dont grow on trees ffs
Right, so because GPs are paid a decent whack for the service they provide they shouldn't baulk at doing freebies - effectively stealing money from their practise funds?
he's signing to say she is medically fit to swim which makes him responsible some way if it goes wrong.
Exactly, on the basis of a ten minute chat he is signing off on something that could come back to bite him, potentially forcing a claim on his medical indemnity and damaging his professional reputation.
To look at another example of this, hospital doctors are paid a fee by funeral services for signing cremation forms, commonly referred to as "ash cash".
You may think that, since someone has died, they should give their time for free.
But they are signing off that they agree with the stated cause of death and that they will shoulder professional responsibility if misdeeds are later uncovered, despite often not knowing the full patient history and not being trained coroners.
And I also assume that everyone saying it's wrong to charge at all for what amounts to a professional service regularly works for nothing themselves..
No we dont. I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge. If they expected me to work for say half a day I may then request some fee to cover my expenses but it may depend on how I felt about the charity and how much "actual" income I would lose.
It is a judgement call. a few minutes does not really fall into the category you refer.
No that's not how it works, I checked and was told I would have to pay (Cigna).
I've never paid for various referrals for all members of the family [Bupa]
Perhaps a different insurer is needed?
Right, so because GPs are paid a decent whack for the service they provide they shouldn't baulk at doing freebies - effectively stealing money from their practise funds?
Stealing? 😆
NHS is a health service, it should do more than looking after 'ill' people.
One of the founding principles of the NHS is that it provides "free at the point of delivery" health care and that is [url= http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/nhscoreprinciples.aspx ]"[u]based on clinical need[/u], not ability to pay"[/url].
The OP had no clinical need so, as pointed out by many others, her consultation was private, not NHS.
Stealing? 😆
Well what is it when you decide not to bother charging a customer for your professional expertise at the expense of your own company, on company time and without your companies permission then? Perhaps embezzlement is closer? Certainly misconduct?
This is a can of worms but when all is said and done £85 seems excessive and downright greedy considering why the questionaire was required.
From The Royal College of General Practitioners
[i]GPs should tell patients in advance if they will be charged for a service and by how much. The BMA recommends fee levels but these are guidelines only and a doctor is not obliged to charge the suggested rates.[/i]
Unfortunately, as I'm not a member of the BMA I can't access the recommended fee page but I would suspect that £85 is higher than the guideline.
Exactly, on the basis of a ten minute chat he is signing off on something that could come back to bite him, potentially forcing a claim on his medical indemnity and damaging his professional reputation.
It is very unlikely that something would come back to bite him as he would not be guaranteeing that the patient is fit to do the swim, merely that in his/her professional opinion, to the best of his/her knowledge there is no past or present medical problem which could foreseeably be injurious or detrimental to the health of the patient whilst partaking in the activity.
LOL @ GrahamS - how many of you are reading this at work ? Thieving embezzlers the lot of you 😆
9 month wait for a "free" appointment versus a fee to get a next day appointment from the same specialist makes "free at point of delivery" a bit weak
£85 just doesn't cut it.
I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge.
Great - I'm sure there are plenty of charities who need their IT systems sorting out. Only a few months work for each. I bet they'll be dead pleased to find out surfer will do it all for free - very generous of you.
LOL @ GrahamS - how many of you are reading this at work ? Thieving embezzlers the lot of you
Absolutely. Misconduct too. Though I'm not giving you benefit of my professional expertise. I'm just slacking.
No we dont. I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge.
And what if someone came to you and said "Can you sign off this form to say that this PC is entirely safe and won't crash in the next 24 hours? It'll be used to run a life support system and if it crashes you may be held legally responsible. You've got ten minutes to examine the PC."
Would you do that for free?
[i]No we dont. I give advice to friends, colleagues etc for no reward (IT) If somebody asked me for a piece of advice and I knew it was charitable I would not charge.[/i]
Advice is less what the Dr did but that's very noble of you not charging for saying use Avast.
[i]LOL @ GrahamS - how many of you are reading this at work ? Thieving embezzlers the lot of you [/i]
Have you tried browsing STW on our fabulous IT system? No chance.
[i] If they expected me to work for say half a day I may then request some fee to cover my expenses but it may depend on how I felt about the charity and how much "actual" income I would lose.[/i]
Let's say this wasn't a one off request, but a steady stream of random people you don't really know from different charities, who individually only took up 10 minutes a time, but collectively took half a day a week?
I dare say that the fees for various assesments / form fillings, etc are displayed somewhere in the surgery for all to see, so the fee should not have been a surprise.
As others have said, the service provided wasn't an NHS service, but a private service. If you don't like the fee either don't use the service or try to find someone else cheaper.
Boycott the doctors - that'll learn them
After a superb 2hr training ride and a great couple of lessons this morning I'm a bit more rational!
As I said in the original post, I don't understand the world sometimes. The world maybe perfectly rational – it’s probably just me!
As I see it, in my simplistic way, we the general populous pay through our taxes to have a healthcare professional in our midst. They are paid handsomely and no matter how you dress it up with bean counting bodies such as primary healthcare trusts it is us the taxpayers that fund their employ. In my naïve way I see them put there to help us out with their expertise with our health related needs. The need in this case was to cast general glance of a medical record & fill a form in, next time it might be help curing a case of genital herpes (I hope not for my sake!). I would also hope that someone in that field would admire, nay encourage, those who are in their care to partake in a healthy lifestyle. The doing-it-for-a charity element is a red herring – I’m not sure it should matter but the fact that it was not business related probably should. It may well be that “the system” can’t be that simplistic in its outlook but if so I feel it’s a shame – especially if you are the sort of person who does not waste you doctors time with sniffles and generally treat their time with respect.
Surfr that's well put and as to original post £85 is mental but they have the right to charge I can see why you first went WTF! though, very noble of you to repost you rethink.
Yes, we the taxpayers pay GPs for a whole lot of services set out on a big list called their contract. Signing forms of this type is not on that list (although genital herpes is) so you (and I) are not paying them to do it. They are therefore at liberty to charge what they like....
(£85 does seem a bit steep though, must have caught her on a bad day)
we the general populous pay through our taxes to have a healthcare professional in our midst.
indeed. But we pay for enough GPs to provide healthcare based on clinical need. If you want enough GPs to also handle all third-party form filling for free (at point of delivery) then you'll need to cough up extra taxes for more GPs and convince those that already think the NHS is costly and wasteful.
Oh and the GP is a her - it's funny how many make assumptions!
Let's say this wasn't a one off request, but a steady stream of random people you don't really know from different charities, who individually only took up 10 minutes a time, but collectively took half a day a week?
Then "lets say" it would be different. However that is extrapolation.
then you'll need to cough up extra taxes for more GPs and convince those that already think the NHS is costly and wasteful.
But you are assuming that the doctor does NOT treat another patient as a result of filling in a form. This is an unfair assumption.
Have you tried browsing STW on our fabulous IT system? No chance.
Really ! No problem at my place, I can even surf fleabay now..........errrr if I had any time of course, which I don't since none of these overpaid GP's turn out after dark 😆 😉
just back with my wallet the lighter but negotiated some nice wee discounts for myself along the way so not that bothered.
discussed this thread along the way and the question was raised. the op's wife goes for her swim. dies. pick your cause, heart failure anything you like. does the op sue?
and on another tack. i'm off to see the lawyer in the next couple of days about some not uncomplicated charity related business. will this lion of society waive his fee becuase it's for 'charidee'. hardly. and it'll be costing a sight more than 85 quid.
surfer - that form filling took up two appointment slots. Thats two appointment slots not available for NHS patients.
This is an unfair assumption.
Why is that assumption not fair? Given the general difficulty people express, here and in other places, in getting an appointment, it would be reasonable to assume that GPs operate at 100% capacity. If they didn't then we'd all be able to phone the doctor and get an appointment whenever we like. On available evidence this doesn't seem to generally be the case.
surfer - that form filling took up two appointment slots.
Is an appointment slot really only 5 minutes ? Good God! My GP spent double that enquiring about how good the skiing/hotel/nightlife was before eventually getting round to having a look at my injured leg.
woody - GPs vary but 5 or 7 mins is the norm. some work on 10 but that is rare IME
I believe the government target time is ten minutes per patient.
So by the time they've looked at your notes before you come in, exchanged pleasantries and done any paperwork after you leave, it is estimated to leave around six minutes per patient.
My GP did my Ironman medical for free, though it was arranged at his convenience.
[i]Really ! No problem at my place[/i]
Yeah ours is shite, it's apparently earmarked to be sorted soon. That's that they told me in the summer anyway. Sorry everyone work chat.
Actually come to think of it Woody you owe me £30 for the reference for the same form.
surfer - that form filling took up two appointment slots. Thats two appointment slots not available for NHS patients.
From the above it would appear to be one slot!
The OP is an NHS "customer" therefore the visit is valid, after all it is a service that GP's offer and not Nurses or administrators?
Therefore by definition the visit does not disadvantage anybody else in the "queue"
This leaves us back to the OP. Is it fair to subjectively charge the fee. IMO no.
Cheque's in the post Drac but I seem to remember we negotiated a 1/2 of lager instead 😉
5 mins per patient, 10 minutes per patient. Legal liabilities. This is peoples life, breathing and all and it's been summarised in numbers.
What a load of crap. I'm so happy I no longer have to put up with the NHS and the people who defend it.
The OP is an NHS "customer" therefore the visit is valid, after all it is a service that GP's offer
Not on the NHS it's not.
My GP might also offer to mend shoes and cut keys, but I wouldn't expect the NHS to cover it, even though I am a "customer".
This is peoples life, breathing and all and it's been summarised in numbers.
Not very nice is it? What utopian dream healthcare system are you part of that doesn't do this?