[Closed] Gove

A great day. I noticed he send a lackey (sp?) to the Today programme, rather than defending the decision himself.

The Rowan Atkinson character?

What a total bellend. Hate the man.

Its funny isnt it, he rushed out and condemmed everything about modern education and exams saying things had to change to make Britains education system a better place and something the world will be jealous of, yet his actions would suggest he would fail Q1 of a SAT test for a 7 year old.
When are politicians going to realise that you actually have to think through your answer to the question before scribbling down the first thing that comes into your head.
Knobs, the lot of them.

Good decision. He's sounded like a complete relic of a conservative minister from the 1980's spouting that teachers, the improving qualifications that children have been attaining and anything to do with state education are no good. The very definition of chinless tory on looks alone Amazed to read he he went to a state school and not some minor private job where he was pleased to be someone's fag.

The problem with Pob (and there are many) is that he's utterly and completely convinced of his own genius. Therefore whatever fanciful notion enters his fetid mind, is obviously the best idea that anyone in the world her ever had EVER! And must, for the benefit of everyone, be implemented immediately

And from that point on, he won't be swayed by awkward things like the opinion of experts, advice or those pesky little things... facts.

So I doubt he sees anything wrong with this biblical scale cluster-**** other than the fact that the rest of society fails to share his obvious vision, and therefore it is [i]us[/i] who are wrong

Its a n odd one

On the one hand it is good when a politiican or a human being reflects on things and changes their opinion.
On the other it was an idiotic suggestion and he is an odious **** who should be murdered to death

I will sit on the fenc eon this one.

Teachers are the new miners, haven't you heard?

You get to blame someone else and ignore your own responsibility for the fact that your child is unable to read, communicate effectively or behave in public.

he's utterly and completely convinced of his own genius

Is he on here yet?

He should be. Its his spiritual home 😉

Luckily, most people on here are in positions where they can't do much damage. Now... where did I put my crayons....

Gove: "here was some confusion in the minds of some students and some teachers between English Baccalaureate certificates and the English Baccalaureate"

Cage:
[img] [/img]

I've heard it said that he is still acting like a news editor. He likes a good headline but he's yet to realise he is actually supposed to deliver on his pronouncements now that he is a minister.

He likes a good headline

Find me a current politician that doesnt, and this is the main problem with modern politics, its all about the 6 o'clock news headlines not actually about real policies that will work.

 

Nobody wants to be remembered as the politician who abolished gcse's. But now children are required to stay in education until 18, it is only a matter of time. Clearly Gove was not enough of a man to take that responsibility.

Any chance at all, ever, that someone might just listen to the teachers as to what they might think about education?? I can't remember a single education minister who has been that revolutionary.

A great day. I noticed he send a lackey (sp?) to the Today programme, rather than defending the decision himself.

BB - consult the plebs? Are you mad? What on earth would they know?

Any chance at all, ever, that someone might just listen to the teachers as to what they might think about education

What consult with the experts done be stupid

What happens is we have a consultation excercise and the doctors [ and other stakeholders] go to school to tell them what to do then the Trust [ whilst it still exists] has a consultation excercise and teachers [ and other stakeholders] tell them whether to prioritise surgical services o phlebotomyr

Its a a foolproof consultation excercise whilst we listen too everyone - everyone being uniformed gobshites with no expertise.

IIRC they got the idea from the content of the threads on here 😛

I think he is a fine example of a modern politician. We get what we vote for and those that are not impressed by there local and national political representative should get involved themselves. These people work really hard for the common good, they get little in return for the efforts they put in to make our society better. In fact it's time that they all got a massive pay rise with limitless expense accounts. It would also help our democratic society if those that snipe from the sidelines and constantly give out negative comments were charged with being traitors and give a mandatory sentence of being asked what they had done for society. Questions to asked live on radio 4 by John Humfries(?).

He he 😆

sad thing is the amount of money they must have wasted on this, I could have had some new glue sticks with that money!!

this always makes me smile;

One board - sound idea (or do we like the idea of competition between exam boards with the benefits (sic) that bought). The range of standards across boards and types of exam adds little other than confusion at the moment. Why should we happy the this has been scrapped (I think)?

More rigorous exams - forget listening to the teaching community, listen to future employers. The current system fails to prepare students adequately for large parts of tertiary education or employment. And who is it that resists change here?

So what happens when teachers are left to their own devices rather than the constant meddling of politicians. Surprise, surprise they adopt linear, more challenging exams to test their brightest pupils (and standard exams for the rest). Their students are attractive to universities (wonder why?) and to future employers (ditto). The gap between thoae who can chose to run ediucation as they (the teachers) see fit and those who have systems imposed on them widens future. And then we wonder why the results are as they are......bizarre?

So a principals reason for opposing Gove was a fear of a two-tier system (memories of o levels and CSEs). And instead we get an ever increasing two-tier system. It makes you want to cry/give up with the UK.

So Gove clearly fails to understand the basic of change management, for sure, and he confuses things further by calling a return to essentially O levels as a baccalaureate. If we want to adopt baccalaureates (and the true system has lots of merits) why not simply adopt the international version. Well thought out, widely tested and recognised and adaptable. But no, we have to make our own buggers muddle.

I too think Gove is an odious turd, but fair play to the man today, it can't be easy to stand up in the chamber and do what he's done.
I'm sure there's been lots of politicians who've stuck to their guns even when they've known they'd got it wrong because they couldn't bear the humiliating climb-down.

his hastily thrown together plans are consistent u-turn fodder
he just likes pandering to the tory grass roots with his penchant for 600 year old bibles,50 year old exams, labours academy programme?! and throwing the word rigour around a lot.

his ultimate legacy will be less sports, an entire year of ruined gcses , alienated teachers, more faith schools and a fractured system of part privatised schooling with massive funding imbalances, at least there will be a bible with his name in gathering dust in school libraries up and down the land!

The current system fails to prepare students adequately for large parts of tertiary education or employment.

In what way? How could it be improved and whats your evidence that itrs wrong in the first place?

I shall celebrate all this twuntery with some baccanalia.

I regularly talk to both. Plus, I also watch (and am partially involved with) the successful alternatives that are already being put into place. Hence our previous "debate" about whether schools should buy/use text books that extend beyond the syllabus/curriculum!! Happy to say A_A that on this issue, despite some common interest, we will probably fail to reach agreement! Anyway, I am out of this thread.

Only a few people make me want to punch them, he is right up there on the top of the list.

Funny, most others are on this site. lols

Funny, most others are on this site. lols

No there's not! 😉

[i]No there's not! [/i]

*reported*

I regularly talk to both. Plus, I also watch (and am partially involved with) the successful alternatives that are already being put into place. Hence our previous "debate" about whether schools should buy/use text books that extend beyond the syllabus/curriculum!! Happy to say A_A that on this issue, despite some common interest, we will probably fail to reach agreement! Anyway, I am out of this thread.

So no evidence then just your opinion that what your involved in is best?

anagallis_arvensis - Member
In what way? How could it be improved and whats your evidence that itrs wrong in the first place?

It isn't about GCSEs, but i just published this if you want to discuss the issue:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03098265.2012.763114

Thanks for the link Capt (although I only have access to the first page). Interestingly, this is nothing new. I studied in Scotland and continued geography for two years despite it not being my core subject. Even then our first year prof, threw back all our first essays in disgust at the general lack of ability to write academic essays!! We had essay writing tutorials and then were told to write them all again - properly!

free version http://nrl.northumbria.ac.uk/9255/

Thanks very much CJ - very interesting research. Page 11 rang many bells - the (emotive?) description of spoon-feeding at GCSE and A level (and the consequent anger described by students) and the narrow range of reading required and expected. A_A and I have discussed (!) this in the past. I think that IB goes some way to tackling some of this and some schools have also introduced compulsory research essays as an extra in the 6th form which all makes sense from your analysis.

Do people still talk about regional geography? I thought that died in the 1980s?

Rusty Spanner - Member
Teachers are the new miners, haven't you heard?
You get to blame someone else and ignore your own responsibility for the fact that your child is unable to read, communicate effectively or behave in public.

+1

Well said.

teamhurtmore - Member
Thanks very much CJ - very interesting research. Page 11 rang many bells - the (emotive?) description of spoon-feeding at GCSE and A level (and the consequent anger described by students) and the narrow range of reading required and expected. A_A and I have discussed (!) this in the past. I think that IB goes some way to tackling some of this and some schools have also introduced compulsory research essays as an extra in the 6th form which all makes sense from your analysis.

Do people still talk about regional geography? I thought that died in the 1980s?

Depends on the teacher, and what they learnt at university. It is pretty difficult to for teachers to keep up with what's happening in academic geography, so some simply revert to what they know. Or worse haven't updated their teaching properly since they started. From what our students said that was rare, however. What was more common was regional geography-style approaches to what was taught - e.g. encyclopaedic and descriptive coverage of contemporary issues.

I'm pleased to say Simon and I have been consulted by an exam board and a couple of organisations involved in supporting geography teachers on this, who was sympathetic. It is important not to under estimate the constraints teachers/schools are under - pressures from government means anything other than teaching to the test is very difficult.

Depends on the teacher, and what they learnt at university. It is pretty difficult to for teachers to keep up with what's happening in academic geography, so some simply revert to what they know. Or worse haven't updated their teaching properly since they started

Just how much can a map of the uk change in any century. 😛

Just how much can a map of the uk change in any century.

Don't say that to people losing their homes on the E coast due to erosion. 😉

stevewhyte - Member

Just how much can a map of the uk change in any century.

Possibly quite a lot, at this rate

teamhurtmore - Member

Even then our first year prof, threw back all our first essays in disgust at the general lack of ability to write academic essays!! We had essay writing tutorials and then were told to write them all again - properly!

I work for a pretty good university... We've recently made our academic writing courses mandatory for first years in many subjects. It used to be an optional extra.

To be honest, it's not new, there was a case for doing it 15 years ago when I was studying there.

Rusty Spanner - Member
Teachers are the new miners, haven't you heard?
You get to blame someone else and ignore your own responsibility for the fact that your child is unable to read, communicate effectively or behave in public.

+1

Well said.

I assume you meant to replace the word 'Teachers' with 'Parents'?

Hmmm, and all this talk of new university students being not 'fit for purpose', does my head in. Talk of lazy teachers not moving with the times particularly irks me, coming from university lecturers who churn out the same didactic lecture year after year one hour a week, get their postgraduates to do the tutorials, then set the same exam questions over and over again often telling the students exactly what the questions will be, and these rigorous exams are based on a dozen weeks of learning at most.....
Yes, it's schools who aren't offering value for money, not the 9k a year unis.

Lets not forget that most dont do a-levels and most dont do degrees and the exam boards set exams and passing them is what students want to do. Maybe uni's should consider who they offer places too? Dont have time to read the paper now but i will.

Just how much can a map of the uk change in any century.

My mum has a brilliant map of the UK she drew in geography at her school. Where I live is labeled nots and Derby coal fields, where I was born is labeled Middlesex, etc etc. Apart from historical battlefields, it is mostly surprisingly out of date.

headfirst - Member
Hmmm, and all this talk of new university students being not 'fit for purpose', does my head in. Talk of lazy teachers not moving with the times particularly irks me, coming from university lecturers who churn out the same didactic lecture year after year one hour a week, get their postgraduates to do the tutorials, then set the same exam questions over and over again often telling the students exactly what the questions will be, and these rigorous exams are based on a dozen weeks of learning at most.....
Yes, it's schools who aren't offering value for money, not the 9k a year unis.

Sorry, which of the academics called teachers lazy?

CJ, there is a persistent and pervasive noise coming from universities about how students can't cope with the 'rigour and challenge' of the lack of contact time with their supposed tutors who wouldn't know most of their students from Adam, and the corresponding lack of proactive support and guidance that students reasonably came to expect from their school teachers - what your colleagues would call spoon feeding. I speak as a teacher at a state school where the majority of our students go Russell group universities, and as the father of a daughter who gained A*, A, A at A level and has found her course at a Russell group uni, top 5 in the country for her subject, wholly underwhelming and very poor value for her 9k +3.5k per year.
Edit: to answer your question: you do in the first two sentences of your earlier post, although you do back pedal later!

headfirst - Member
CJ, there is a persistent and pervasive noise coming from universities about how students can't cope with the 'rigour and challenge' of the lack of contact time with their supposed tutors who wouldn't know most of their students from Adam, and the corresponding lack of proactive support and guidance that students reasonably came to expect from their school teachers - what your colleagues would call spoon feeding. I speak as a teacher at a state school where the majority of our students go Russell group universities, and as the father of a daughter who gained A*, A, A at A level and has found her course at a Russell group uni, top 5 in the country for her subject, wholly underwhelming and very poor value for her 9k +3.5k per year.
Edit: to answer your question: you do in the first two sentences of your earlier post, although you do back pedal later!

The important bit of my 'back pedalling' is the part where i mention the constraints on teachers. Most i know want to develop their teaching, but they aren't given the time or resources to do that. It isn't about motivation, it is about working in an environment which is created by groups who don't understand teachers or teaching - but then you know this as a teacher.

With regard to your daughter's experience, i'd be pretty annoyed too. I'm proud to say that isn't the experience in my department, but then i don't work in a Russell Group university 😉 I'm also proud to say that we don't give the kind of proactive support students got at school because that isn't what university is about. As i say in the article, I wish students were better prepared for university, and i wish teachers were empowered to contribute to that preparation.

CaptJohn, you probably teach some of my A level students 🙂

Is school about learning to pass a levels or preparing them for the next hoop?

School's about league tables and Ofsted reports, innit?

What would be the point of uni if kids arrived able to do it.

CJ, your consolatory and soothing tone is no good for my antagonism... 😉

I appreciate I'm having a go at the wrong person. I'm starting to think that so called teaching universities should really teach the so called top flight establishments a thing or two about customer service and value for money.

I agree with your second paragraph - HE is rightly different from secondary education but both parties need to 'shrink the gap', eg. Our top students do EPQs, but too many unis call for change but change nothing themselves.

To be blunt- the purpose of a Russell group university degree is to look good on a CV, not to give a first class student experience. Of course, these aren't mutually exclusive but it's not too surprising that institutions outside the club may have to work harder for students. Or perhaps I'm bitter 😉

TBH I think it's now pretty widely accepted that the A-level system tends to deliver a pretty narrow student. Meanwhile if you have a Scottish Higher student, you typically look for more quality results, which will generally mean a wider range of subjects.

(Obviously there's positives and negatives to both)

So as a f'rinstance, our MEng Mech Eng requires BBB at a-level, of which one must be maths, one must be physics or technology studies, and of the third chemistry is preferred. So it's not just possible, but actually preferred, that we get a very narrow maths/science applicant.

However for a Higher candidate, we look for BBBBB- you could obtain that with a maths/science bent but it's likely you'll have a wider range of qualifications- a language perhaps, or a social science.

Obviously, a B in modern studies isn't directly useful when studying applied thermodynamics! But it's likely that the broader student will have acquired additional, useful skills in the process of getting the less relevant qualification, since the teaching and evaluation methods are different. They are also, by and large, more likely to succeed at wider university life, which is undervalued.

Opinions vary on which is actually better- our stats suggest that the broader candidate is more likely to complete their course but that the narrow candidate is marginally more likely to get a first should they make it, but the statistical argument isn't really very strong and tbh, we're a scottish uni so perhaps we favour the scottish system. You can find strong advocates for both.

(The one area where it absolutely is better is if a student wants to change course- I've seen some leaps like Microbiology to Applied Psychology which would be very hard to do with a maths-biol-chem student)

I love Michael Gove

Here's what New Labour stalwart John Rentoul thinks.

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2013/02/06/goves-liberation-theology-speech/

As Ian Leslie argues, equally brilliantly and passionately, on his Marbury blog, Gove seems to bring out some people in a form of derangement. He deliberately provokes educational conservatives, because it is fun, but because his arguments are unanswerable this seems to drive them to a particularly irrational state.

As Leslie points out, the idea that Gove is an ideologue reckless with evidence is just rubbish, and his Social Market Foundation speech is a detailed rebuttal of it. The argument for the English baccalaureate (although why it has to be called that I don’t know) is powerful.

Just recently, Gove announced the end of the AS-A2 split in A-levels, which means pupils will no longer have to take exams every year at 16, 17 and 18. I don’t agree with him on resits; I thought modern liberal Conservatives believed in giving people a second chance.* But I do agree on course work and only wish he would do something about the silliness of personal statements on Ucas forms too.

Yet all this – not to mention his tactful but firm commitment to the principle of all-ability state schools – is treated as if it were a return to the strap, the workhouse and aristocratic elitism.

Leslie asks:

What is it about Gove that bends even sensible minds out of joint; that drives intelligent people absolutely batty with rage? His programme is really just a continuation of the last government’s, just speeded up. I don’t remember the left burning effigies of Alan Johnson.

There’s some weird personal stuff going on that I can’t even begin to explain (much like Blair, the very sight of him seems to make some people’s eyes flash red and the green pen to jump out of its scabbard).

But I think the deeper problem is that Gove came into government to get big things done, and he is doing them. We’re not used to that in this country. We find it downright offensive. And that explains a lot about the mess we’re in.

mcboo championing new labour!, well I never

if goves so wonderful why didnt he forsee how much of a balls up his baccalaureate plan would be

Well I dont come here all that much anymore (aww diddums) but I thought I would pop in to give credit where it is due. Dont think I'm bigging up New Labour though, I'm pointing out that Gove has supporters across the political spectrum, just not amongst the dead-eyed educational establishment.

Well done mcboo for bringing the thread back on track.

My twopenn'orth:

Gove is a self-serving COTHO.

Northwind - Member
Obviously, a B in modern studies isn't directly useful when studying applied thermodynamics! But it's likely that the broader student will have acquired additional, useful skills in the process of getting the less relevant qualification, since the teaching and evaluation methods are different. They are also, by and large, more likely to succeed at wider university life, which is undervalued.

This is a point we didn't have room for in the article. When universities set their UCAS requirements (we're at 320 points including a C in geography - the same as our Russell Group neighbours btw), there seems to be little consideration of what students have done beyond the subject specific requirement. I'd love to get more students who did English, because those students tend to write better.

miketually - Member
CaptJohn, you probably teach some of my A level students

ygm

Gove does seem to drive people insanely angry. I'm not sure why that is but it's probably because he is unarguably clever and takes such obvious delight in winding up his opponents. Daniel Hannan is another one like that.....libertarian, urbane and always polite, unless he's addressing Gordon Brown and I think we can all forgive him that.

I struggle with long sentences, but just popped in to ask how come we can type the word "Gove" but not the word "****" ? I know which I find the most offensive

See what I mean

Gove does seem to drive people insanely angry

I'm pointing out that Gove has supporters across the political spectrum

He , like your view of him, is quite the enigma

t's probably because he is unarguably clever and takes such obvious delight in winding up his opponents. Daniel Hannan is another one like that.

I think you have a broken **** ometer

mcboo - Member
See what I mean

It's a special knack, talking crap whilst being massively condescending; implies absolute lack of insight IMO

I guess its just that I care more about kids than I do about teachers and it's clear that Gove does too.

it's clear that Gove does too

Being fair and objective on this. Gove is a £@!t faced c@&! master.

Anyone who thinks to raise standards is best achieved by denigrating those who in effect you are meant to lead has lost the battle before he has begun.

He along with some of his other colleagues, across all parties, are why I am becoming more apathetic towards politics as I get older. We need government to take the politics out of education, start looking at long term options and not at the next election result.

Bah...

Well I dont come here all that much anymore

Such a shame really,

I'm not sure why that is but it's probably because he is unarguably clever and takes such obvious delight in winding up his opponents. Daniel Hannan is another one like that.....libertarian, urbane and always polite

Comedy gold.

I don't know why people get wound up by Gove either. He is merely another spanner in the tory Government works. Long may the tory party be full of them.

I guess its just that I care more about kids than I do about teachers and it's clear that Gove does too.

Thank god we have you and Gove thinking of the children
I will sleep better tonight knowing this

Is school about learning to pass a levels or preparing them for the next hoop?

I meant A levels are one hoop. Its what i get my pupils to.jump through. If they do well they have anotber one to get tbrough at uni. Uni's seem to want me to train them to get through both. I'll need it explained to me too how having a Scottish higher in modern sthdies makes it easier for a pupil to suceed in uni life?

And finally if Gove is so clever why has he ****ed it up so badly?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9855565/Michael-Gove-may-have-lost-a-skirmish-over-the-EBacc-but-hes-winning-the-war.html

Now and again, Gove quotes the socialist theorist RH Tawney, saying that “what a wise parent would wish for their children, so the state must wish for all its children”. But his school reforms will – if successful – end the power of any education secretary to prescribe any one system for the state’s children. In Sweden, the model for the Gove reforms, schools compete over different approaches to learning. Some are traditionalist, with 25 pupils in a classroom facing the front and memorising Tennyson. Some try modern methods, where each pupil has an individual curriculum and lessons are more relaxed. The idea of there being any one correct way to educate children will, if Gove’s reforms succeed, be as outmoded as the blackboard and the cane.

headfirst - Member
CJ, your consolatory and soothing tone is no good for my antagonism...

I appreciate I'm having a go at the wrong person. I'm starting to think that so called teaching universities should really teach the so called top flight establishments a thing or two about [u]customer service[/u] and [u]value for money[/u].

Two phrases which make my skin crawl...

I agree with your second paragraph - HE is rightly different from secondary education but both parties need to 'shrink the gap', eg. Our top students do EPQs, but too many unis call for change but change nothing themselves.

Agreed.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
What would be the point of uni if kids arrived able to do it.

If they came in with better skills they'd be able to focus more on learning harder more advanced content, rather than learning how to write an essay, construct an argument, spell etc.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
I meant A levels are one hoop. Its what i get my pupils to.jump through. If they do well they have anotber one to get tbrough at uni. Uni's seem to want me to train them to get through both

Imagine if one hoop provided a way to pass a-levels [i]and[/i] prepare students for university.

right wing paper and poster supporting right wing politician SHOCKA

Gove’s admirers have forgiven him for this contradiction, given how well he has been letting go. Most English secondary schools are now independent from government, something unthinkable just two years ago. Soon they will have complete freedom over teachers’ pay, to the fury of the trade unions, and they may start competing for pupils.

As Gove frequently points out, the English state education system already serves the rich and the high achievers rather well. It is the poor who have suffered most from the comprehensive education experiment – and it is the poor who stand to gain the most from his reforms

what the poor did better under grammar schools and comprehensive eduction has failed them - I guess the author knows little of education or history
Its like they think the poor schools in the poor areas will be the most popular with the best teachers and attract more pupils via competition - does anyone actually believe this will happen? Does Gove?

His defeat this week was a sign that he is fighting

Imagine if one hoop provided a way to pass a-levels and prepare students for university.

that would be nice but tbe fault doesnt lie with teachers imo. Exam boards and the expansion of uni intake is to blame imo.

Capt, I have been thinking about your regional geography points as I really thought that had died out (not [i]necessarily [/i] a good thing IMO!) in the dash to make geography a science in the 80s (sorry, I am being biased here remembering my Haggert and Chorley). But your comments and the current (I)GCSE exams seem to ring a bell. I don't teach geog but have superevised a bit and prepared some case studies and revision notes. The mark scheme starts with some easy 1 mark definitions, a few 3-4 theory/concept questions (hardly requiring much critical thinking merely - definition (tick) and basic apllication (tick). The big mark sections 6-9 marks are often the case studies which seem (IMO) to have become slightly hackneyed. But studentsneed to learn them (and it seems by formula almost) to score well. So they can recite parrot fashion urban land use in Rio, subsistence farming in the Ganges river basin,, Kobe earthquake, hill farming in the Lakes etc. Is that why they are still stuck (if that is the correct word) in regional geography? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

The dual purpose hoops do exist....just not applied sufficiently.

Having just finished the UCAS procedure with my form class. One real problem partly caused by Universities is the needs to make the grade. Doesn't matter how good a pupil is or what their potential is if they do not hold the grades then likelihood of an offer is none. So we are in the ever decreasing circle of pushing kids to learn the material as opposed to learning to problem solve etc.

I'm astonished at the idea that a single exam board would be a terrible thing. SQA seems to have been doing quite well for the past wee while, don't see the need for "competition".