[Closed] Gove

Just how much can a map of the uk change in any century.

My mum has a brilliant map of the UK she drew in geography at her school. Where I live is labeled nots and Derby coal fields, where I was born is labeled Middlesex, etc etc. Apart from historical battlefields, it is mostly surprisingly out of date.

headfirst - Member
Hmmm, and all this talk of new university students being not 'fit for purpose', does my head in. Talk of lazy teachers not moving with the times particularly irks me, coming from university lecturers who churn out the same didactic lecture year after year one hour a week, get their postgraduates to do the tutorials, then set the same exam questions over and over again often telling the students exactly what the questions will be, and these rigorous exams are based on a dozen weeks of learning at most.....
Yes, it's schools who aren't offering value for money, not the 9k a year unis.

Sorry, which of the academics called teachers lazy?

CJ, there is a persistent and pervasive noise coming from universities about how students can't cope with the 'rigour and challenge' of the lack of contact time with their supposed tutors who wouldn't know most of their students from Adam, and the corresponding lack of proactive support and guidance that students reasonably came to expect from their school teachers - what your colleagues would call spoon feeding. I speak as a teacher at a state school where the majority of our students go Russell group universities, and as the father of a daughter who gained A*, A, A at A level and has found her course at a Russell group uni, top 5 in the country for her subject, wholly underwhelming and very poor value for her 9k +3.5k per year.
Edit: to answer your question: you do in the first two sentences of your earlier post, although you do back pedal later!

headfirst - Member
CJ, there is a persistent and pervasive noise coming from universities about how students can't cope with the 'rigour and challenge' of the lack of contact time with their supposed tutors who wouldn't know most of their students from Adam, and the corresponding lack of proactive support and guidance that students reasonably came to expect from their school teachers - what your colleagues would call spoon feeding. I speak as a teacher at a state school where the majority of our students go Russell group universities, and as the father of a daughter who gained A*, A, A at A level and has found her course at a Russell group uni, top 5 in the country for her subject, wholly underwhelming and very poor value for her 9k +3.5k per year.
Edit: to answer your question: you do in the first two sentences of your earlier post, although you do back pedal later!

The important bit of my 'back pedalling' is the part where i mention the constraints on teachers. Most i know want to develop their teaching, but they aren't given the time or resources to do that. It isn't about motivation, it is about working in an environment which is created by groups who don't understand teachers or teaching - but then you know this as a teacher.

With regard to your daughter's experience, i'd be pretty annoyed too. I'm proud to say that isn't the experience in my department, but then i don't work in a Russell Group university 😉 I'm also proud to say that we don't give the kind of proactive support students got at school because that isn't what university is about. As i say in the article, I wish students were better prepared for university, and i wish teachers were empowered to contribute to that preparation.

CaptJohn, you probably teach some of my A level students 🙂

Is school about learning to pass a levels or preparing them for the next hoop?

School's about league tables and Ofsted reports, innit?

What would be the point of uni if kids arrived able to do it.

CJ, your consolatory and soothing tone is no good for my antagonism... 😉

I appreciate I'm having a go at the wrong person. I'm starting to think that so called teaching universities should really teach the so called top flight establishments a thing or two about customer service and value for money.

I agree with your second paragraph - HE is rightly different from secondary education but both parties need to 'shrink the gap', eg. Our top students do EPQs, but too many unis call for change but change nothing themselves.

To be blunt- the purpose of a Russell group university degree is to look good on a CV, not to give a first class student experience. Of course, these aren't mutually exclusive but it's not too surprising that institutions outside the club may have to work harder for students. Or perhaps I'm bitter 😉

TBH I think it's now pretty widely accepted that the A-level system tends to deliver a pretty narrow student. Meanwhile if you have a Scottish Higher student, you typically look for more quality results, which will generally mean a wider range of subjects.

(Obviously there's positives and negatives to both)

So as a f'rinstance, our MEng Mech Eng requires BBB at a-level, of which one must be maths, one must be physics or technology studies, and of the third chemistry is preferred. So it's not just possible, but actually preferred, that we get a very narrow maths/science applicant.

However for a Higher candidate, we look for BBBBB- you could obtain that with a maths/science bent but it's likely you'll have a wider range of qualifications- a language perhaps, or a social science.

Obviously, a B in modern studies isn't directly useful when studying applied thermodynamics! But it's likely that the broader student will have acquired additional, useful skills in the process of getting the less relevant qualification, since the teaching and evaluation methods are different. They are also, by and large, more likely to succeed at wider university life, which is undervalued.

Opinions vary on which is actually better- our stats suggest that the broader candidate is more likely to complete their course but that the narrow candidate is marginally more likely to get a first should they make it, but the statistical argument isn't really very strong and tbh, we're a scottish uni so perhaps we favour the scottish system. You can find strong advocates for both.

(The one area where it absolutely is better is if a student wants to change course- I've seen some leaps like Microbiology to Applied Psychology which would be very hard to do with a maths-biol-chem student)

I love Michael Gove

Here's what New Labour stalwart John Rentoul thinks.

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2013/02/06/goves-liberation-theology-speech/

As Ian Leslie argues, equally brilliantly and passionately, on his Marbury blog, Gove seems to bring out some people in a form of derangement. He deliberately provokes educational conservatives, because it is fun, but because his arguments are unanswerable this seems to drive them to a particularly irrational state.

As Leslie points out, the idea that Gove is an ideologue reckless with evidence is just rubbish, and his Social Market Foundation speech is a detailed rebuttal of it. The argument for the English baccalaureate (although why it has to be called that I don’t know) is powerful.

Just recently, Gove announced the end of the AS-A2 split in A-levels, which means pupils will no longer have to take exams every year at 16, 17 and 18. I don’t agree with him on resits; I thought modern liberal Conservatives believed in giving people a second chance.* But I do agree on course work and only wish he would do something about the silliness of personal statements on Ucas forms too.

Yet all this – not to mention his tactful but firm commitment to the principle of all-ability state schools – is treated as if it were a return to the strap, the workhouse and aristocratic elitism.

Leslie asks:

What is it about Gove that bends even sensible minds out of joint; that drives intelligent people absolutely batty with rage? His programme is really just a continuation of the last government’s, just speeded up. I don’t remember the left burning effigies of Alan Johnson.

There’s some weird personal stuff going on that I can’t even begin to explain (much like Blair, the very sight of him seems to make some people’s eyes flash red and the green pen to jump out of its scabbard).

But I think the deeper problem is that Gove came into government to get big things done, and he is doing them. We’re not used to that in this country. We find it downright offensive. And that explains a lot about the mess we’re in.

mcboo championing new labour!, well I never

if goves so wonderful why didnt he forsee how much of a balls up his baccalaureate plan would be

Well I dont come here all that much anymore (aww diddums) but I thought I would pop in to give credit where it is due. Dont think I'm bigging up New Labour though, I'm pointing out that Gove has supporters across the political spectrum, just not amongst the dead-eyed educational establishment.

Well done mcboo for bringing the thread back on track.

My twopenn'orth:

Gove is a self-serving COTHO.

Northwind - Member
Obviously, a B in modern studies isn't directly useful when studying applied thermodynamics! But it's likely that the broader student will have acquired additional, useful skills in the process of getting the less relevant qualification, since the teaching and evaluation methods are different. They are also, by and large, more likely to succeed at wider university life, which is undervalued.

This is a point we didn't have room for in the article. When universities set their UCAS requirements (we're at 320 points including a C in geography - the same as our Russell Group neighbours btw), there seems to be little consideration of what students have done beyond the subject specific requirement. I'd love to get more students who did English, because those students tend to write better.

miketually - Member
CaptJohn, you probably teach some of my A level students

ygm

Gove does seem to drive people insanely angry. I'm not sure why that is but it's probably because he is unarguably clever and takes such obvious delight in winding up his opponents. Daniel Hannan is another one like that.....libertarian, urbane and always polite, unless he's addressing Gordon Brown and I think we can all forgive him that.

I struggle with long sentences, but just popped in to ask how come we can type the word "Gove" but not the word "****" ? I know which I find the most offensive

See what I mean

Gove does seem to drive people insanely angry

I'm pointing out that Gove has supporters across the political spectrum

He , like your view of him, is quite the enigma

t's probably because he is unarguably clever and takes such obvious delight in winding up his opponents. Daniel Hannan is another one like that.

I think you have a broken **** ometer

mcboo - Member
See what I mean

It's a special knack, talking crap whilst being massively condescending; implies absolute lack of insight IMO

I guess its just that I care more about kids than I do about teachers and it's clear that Gove does too.

it's clear that Gove does too

Being fair and objective on this. Gove is a £@!t faced c@&! master.

Anyone who thinks to raise standards is best achieved by denigrating those who in effect you are meant to lead has lost the battle before he has begun.

He along with some of his other colleagues, across all parties, are why I am becoming more apathetic towards politics as I get older. We need government to take the politics out of education, start looking at long term options and not at the next election result.

Bah...

Well I dont come here all that much anymore

Such a shame really,

I'm not sure why that is but it's probably because he is unarguably clever and takes such obvious delight in winding up his opponents. Daniel Hannan is another one like that.....libertarian, urbane and always polite

Comedy gold.

I don't know why people get wound up by Gove either. He is merely another spanner in the tory Government works. Long may the tory party be full of them.

I guess its just that I care more about kids than I do about teachers and it's clear that Gove does too.

Thank god we have you and Gove thinking of the children
I will sleep better tonight knowing this

Is school about learning to pass a levels or preparing them for the next hoop?

I meant A levels are one hoop. Its what i get my pupils to.jump through. If they do well they have anotber one to get tbrough at uni. Uni's seem to want me to train them to get through both. I'll need it explained to me too how having a Scottish higher in modern sthdies makes it easier for a pupil to suceed in uni life?

And finally if Gove is so clever why has he ****ed it up so badly?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9855565/Michael-Gove-may-have-lost-a-skirmish-over-the-EBacc-but-hes-winning-the-war.html

Now and again, Gove quotes the socialist theorist RH Tawney, saying that “what a wise parent would wish for their children, so the state must wish for all its children”. But his school reforms will – if successful – end the power of any education secretary to prescribe any one system for the state’s children. In Sweden, the model for the Gove reforms, schools compete over different approaches to learning. Some are traditionalist, with 25 pupils in a classroom facing the front and memorising Tennyson. Some try modern methods, where each pupil has an individual curriculum and lessons are more relaxed. The idea of there being any one correct way to educate children will, if Gove’s reforms succeed, be as outmoded as the blackboard and the cane.

headfirst - Member
CJ, your consolatory and soothing tone is no good for my antagonism...

I appreciate I'm having a go at the wrong person. I'm starting to think that so called teaching universities should really teach the so called top flight establishments a thing or two about [u]customer service[/u] and [u]value for money[/u].

Two phrases which make my skin crawl...

I agree with your second paragraph - HE is rightly different from secondary education but both parties need to 'shrink the gap', eg. Our top students do EPQs, but too many unis call for change but change nothing themselves.

Agreed.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
What would be the point of uni if kids arrived able to do it.

If they came in with better skills they'd be able to focus more on learning harder more advanced content, rather than learning how to write an essay, construct an argument, spell etc.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
I meant A levels are one hoop. Its what i get my pupils to.jump through. If they do well they have anotber one to get tbrough at uni. Uni's seem to want me to train them to get through both

Imagine if one hoop provided a way to pass a-levels [i]and[/i] prepare students for university.

right wing paper and poster supporting right wing politician SHOCKA

Gove’s admirers have forgiven him for this contradiction, given how well he has been letting go. Most English secondary schools are now independent from government, something unthinkable just two years ago. Soon they will have complete freedom over teachers’ pay, to the fury of the trade unions, and they may start competing for pupils.

As Gove frequently points out, the English state education system already serves the rich and the high achievers rather well. It is the poor who have suffered most from the comprehensive education experiment – and it is the poor who stand to gain the most from his reforms

what the poor did better under grammar schools and comprehensive eduction has failed them - I guess the author knows little of education or history
Its like they think the poor schools in the poor areas will be the most popular with the best teachers and attract more pupils via competition - does anyone actually believe this will happen? Does Gove?

His defeat this week was a sign that he is fighting

Imagine if one hoop provided a way to pass a-levels and prepare students for university.

that would be nice but tbe fault doesnt lie with teachers imo. Exam boards and the expansion of uni intake is to blame imo.

Capt, I have been thinking about your regional geography points as I really thought that had died out (not [i]necessarily [/i] a good thing IMO!) in the dash to make geography a science in the 80s (sorry, I am being biased here remembering my Haggert and Chorley). But your comments and the current (I)GCSE exams seem to ring a bell. I don't teach geog but have superevised a bit and prepared some case studies and revision notes. The mark scheme starts with some easy 1 mark definitions, a few 3-4 theory/concept questions (hardly requiring much critical thinking merely - definition (tick) and basic apllication (tick). The big mark sections 6-9 marks are often the case studies which seem (IMO) to have become slightly hackneyed. But studentsneed to learn them (and it seems by formula almost) to score well. So they can recite parrot fashion urban land use in Rio, subsistence farming in the Ganges river basin,, Kobe earthquake, hill farming in the Lakes etc. Is that why they are still stuck (if that is the correct word) in regional geography? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

The dual purpose hoops do exist....just not applied sufficiently.

Having just finished the UCAS procedure with my form class. One real problem partly caused by Universities is the needs to make the grade. Doesn't matter how good a pupil is or what their potential is if they do not hold the grades then likelihood of an offer is none. So we are in the ever decreasing circle of pushing kids to learn the material as opposed to learning to problem solve etc.

I'm astonished at the idea that a single exam board would be a terrible thing. SQA seems to have been doing quite well for the past wee while, don't see the need for "competition".

what the poor did better under grammar schools and comprehensive eduction has failed them - I guess the author knows little of education or history

I don't think its about the poor - but my Dad reckons did better at a technical school than he would ever have done in a comprehensive being forced to learn French - went on to become an electrician in the merchant navy.

Whereas my mum reckons she was driven to achieve her best by going to Grammar school, went on to work in a bank then a few decades in civil service.

Comprehensive schools have different courses for different people you know.

Steve Bell nails it again....

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anagallis_arvensis - Member

I meant A levels are one hoop. Its what i get my pupils to.jump through. If they do well they have anotber one to get tbrough at uni. Uni's seem to want me to train them to get through both. I'll need it explained to me too how having a Scottish higher in modern sthdies makes it easier for a pupil to suceed in uni life?

For the first- it's not about expecting school qualifications to make students ready to pass university- it's about wanting students to be better prepared to start university (and work- business leaders have similar comments to make about the fitness of school qualifications, though that's not my field)

As CaptJon says, it's not 2 different hoops. Universities obviously set their entrance requirements based on the current school system, and schools obviously tailor their students to make entrance requirements, and that's self perpetuating without really being productive. It doesn't preclude altering courses though. It's really not a dig at teachers or schools, it's a comment on the courses that teachers and schools are required to teach.

For the second point- there's a correlation between academically specialised students and non-academic "success". A major reason for dropping out of university is not adapting to the environment, bottom line is we lose too many capable students because they're not happy. And we find that the broader students are less likely to have these issues.

Obviously there's room for different theories why this is, and there are too many other contributing factors to call it science. But it's not a reach to say that a broad student will have had a broader learning experience and so may interact better with others outside their chosen field or their past experience.

Modern Studies was just an example, since it's sometimes looked down on by academics... But maybe a good one. If you come and do one of our languages courses, the A-level expectation is english, one foreign language, preferably two. Makes sense. But stick you in a room with 30 other students from all around the world and it'll be useful to know a bit about different cultures, ideologies, maybe politics.

Course, you don't have to have a qualification in a subject to know about it!

Modern Studies was just an example, since it's sometimes looked down on by academics... But maybe a good one. If you come and do one of our languages courses, the A-level expectation is english, one foreign language, preferably two. Makes sense. But stick you in a room with 30 other students from all around the world and it'll be useful to know a bit about different cultures, ideologies, maybe politics.

I've just started teaching my tutor group in preparation for AS General Studies. They're all pretty disinterested because "universities don't accept it". To me, it seems like an ideal qualification to get them to know a bit about different cultures, ideologies and politics.

Any of the uni people know why it isn't accepted in the points offers of so many universities?

We don't exclude it, but our admissions policy allows for departments to exclude it on a case-by-case basis. Which is worse, probably!

Outside my field, I can ask a tame admissions tutor if you like when I'm next in? I think the answer will be "other courses are a higher priority" Victim of the 3 As structure I reckon. But I agree it could be valuable.

Does Steve Bell publish in VIz?

Thread resurrection!

An interesting article to counter the Torygraph, etc

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/michael-gove-not-bungler-but-idealogue

I thought he'd be loved by the Torygraph? Or is Gove a bit too Daily Mail, and populist for their liking?

Though what it's pointing out: that everything he does is fueled by right wing dogma, that he makes up policy on the hoof, as he goes along, and that he's completely incompetent ****-wit is all bang on. But its the last few paragraphs that are the most worrying...
[i]
Now a leaked memo from Gove's department has revealed that ministers are considering "reclassifying academies to the private sector", allowing them to be profit-making, to deal with the impact of the runaway costs of the academy and free school programme.

No doubt Gove and his supporters are convinced that marketisation and privatisation are the route to transforming English schools for the better, though it must help that a whole "educational services industry" is also gagging to benefit.[/i]

Another grauniad article from a posh, privileged lefty. Where do they get them all from 😆