[Closed] Gordon's on his way then

is this on the bbc?

[url=

[i]In his letter, Mr Purnell said he owed it to the Labour Party to "say what I believe no matter how hard that may be". [/i]

Yeah I think he, the rest of the New Labour self-serving careerists, and the "left leaning" Guardian newspaper, probably owed it to the Labour Party to wait a couple of days before sticking the boot in, instead of doing it on the eve of a major election.

Their actions can only have helped the Tories, UKIP, and the BNP. It's hardly going to encourage people to going running to the polls to vote for your party when you tell them that your leader isn't fit for the job.

Still, waiting until next week would have meant that it wouldn't have done the maximum damage to Labour Party, and damaging the Labour Party at the polls to get at Gordon Brown, was clearly the plan.

All this from senior Labour Party members and the "left leaning" Guardian newspaper. So much for their commitment to fight the Tories.

I have long suspected for various reasons, that it was a real possibility the Labour Party might implode after their defeat in the 2010 general election, none of this is convincing me that I might be barking up the wrong tree.

New Labour is dead, it has yet to seen if the Labour Party itself can be saved. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the Labour Party is now possibly too rotten to be saved. We're probably getting closer to the time when a new party needs to be built, to serve the interests of ordinary British people.

hear hear

History repeating itself. Didn't this happen about two years ago?

Purnell quit and released the statement after the polls closed if that makes any difference.

I for one hope he doesn't step down. It'll be the final bit of thread that unravels Labours hold on Government. I don't want a tory PM, and the LibDems IMHO have an arse and elbow complex that doesn't really suit leading a country.

We can be quite short sighted in our views of politicians sometimes

Be nice to see Labour return to it's traditional values instead of some kind of modern mix of right wing with a splash of lefty stuff thrown in to keep the cheques coming in from the unions.

Be nice to see Labour return to it's traditional values instead of some kind of modern mix of right wing with a splash of lefty stuff thrown in to keep the cheques coming in from the unions.

I don't know, I'm a blue collar worker, I get good basic pay, more than my wife who is a teacher, final salary pension, etc etc. Granted the economy on it's arse, but that's a global problem. Labour seem to be doing ok by their traditional 'working class' voters

Do I just have a short memory, or have we really never seen a government fall apart quite so spectacularly?

Do I just have a short memory, or have we really never seen a government fall apart quite so spectacularly?

Yep a Labour one..great isn't it !

Do I just have a short memory, or have we really never seen a government fall apart quite so spectacularly?

No your memory is fine.

don't you mean picked apart by the media? The same media, who brought about a run on a bank? Possibly pushing the following recession into a faster dive than if they'd just left NR alone?

It's not the media that are resigning from the Cabinet.

I am with you druidh - never seen a government unravel so spectacularly.

But why are they resigning? Whats sparked the sudden change in mood amongst the Labour camp? only recently the economy showed signs of stability, and things maybe looked like they'll be ok. Not disagreeing with you by the way, just think certain aspects of the press won't be happy until the banks have all closed, and there isn't an MP left in the commons, just so they can say, "we told you so"

The country is Bankrupt..that should be enough to get a little worked up about.

if that makes any difference

Not very much. About 5 ministers have resigned in the last 24 hours, 3 of them cabinet members, and the polls have only been shut for a couple of hours. I don't expect all rats to jump from a sinking ship at exactly the same time. And it's all part of the same concerted plan anyway.

No one can deny that it couldn't possibly have come at a worst time for the Labour Party. Next week would have been better. But now the back-stabbing self-serving careerists have got an excuse when the disastrous poll results are announced - it's all Gordon Brown's fault. They themselves will of course be innocent. And they did point out that he wasn't doing a good job, even before the results were known. So they right all along.

He needed to take control a few weeks ago but I reckon he's missed the opportunity now. If he goes then fair enough, but which of the back-stabbing arseholes are going to take his place...
I just cannot see Cameron running this country...but its looking like he's going to.

What was that famous headline..."Last one out please turn out the lights"

I don't want a tory PM

I have to admit that even as an instinctive Tory voter (and happy to admit that - though I'll point out I don't always vote that way, nor did I vote for the same party in both elections today - and no I didn't vote BNP or UKIP) I'm still not totally sure about Cameron as PM - would rather have him than Brown (or indeed anybody else who's likely to be PM going into the election from what I've seen of them so far) though.

The Guardian today were playing down Millibands chances of being next PM, I think he's the best man for the job personally. I still don't think Brown is dead and burried just yet though.

if we did have one now it would be dominated by the expense row

Bet James Purnell agrees with you :

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=ggL&q=James+Purnell+expenses&btnG=Search&meta=

I wonder if he'll throw his hat in the ring for leader to replace Brown ?

[i]We're probably getting closer to the time when a new party needs to be built, to serve the interests of ordinary British people. [/i]

Nail, head, hit, etc etc

Not very much. About 5 ministers have resigned in the last 24 hours, 3 of them cabinet members, and the polls have only been shut for a couple of hours

In the end I voted Labour in the European and Lib Dem in the council elections(they and the cons were the only choice for that one), I'd rather see an able Labour government than a Conservative one, Brown has to go to give the party a chance to sort itself out before the election or we're getting Cameron as PM next year.

Hmmm, I seem to remember the tories being just as reviled (if not more) in the lead up to the general election in 1997. I'm not just saying this to defend Labour or to have a pop at the tories. I do believe though, that the tory party under John Major (a thoroughly decent chap who didn't deserve to have to try and lead the bunch of idiots under him...ok, Currie aside 😳 ) was more rotten and corrupt than the bunch there now. We just didn't see it or have access to as much information about them back then. But we still grew to hate them and they were chucked out on their arses. Who's left from that time...I can't think of anyone other than Clarke (who a lot of Labour voters wish was on their side anyway).

Inevitably, with the system of party politics that we have, along with the FPTP voting system, this is what happens to any government which stays in power for anything over ten years (in recent memory; I don't know enough to speak about governments, say between the wars and for the first decade and a half after the second world war). The politicians like to think they're all media-savvy and experts at spin. On the other hand, the general public can see through their shite better now than before. And even if they are telling the truth about something, we've given up believing them...and we had before all the expenses stuff too.

It seems that we will always get bored of governments in this country and it saddens me to think that for the foreseeable future, we'll have bugger all choice between the tories and the Labour party. We really need a revolutionary change in how MPs are elected, and how government is run once they're in there. There really are MPs in parliament right now who are decent and care about the country - on every side. But they'll never get to any positions of power because they probably don't want to get involved in the back-scratching compromising and horse-trading that's required. So we'll always get career politicians - that's what the system will always deliver.

You ask why they're all resigning...well, what do you expect...Brown's lost his mandate in the party and they're just getting ready to align themselves to the next prospective leader (who will lose the next election) until it's time to actually go for the tories while in opposition. That's when we'll see the next crop of career politicians. If it's not a landslide victory and Labour feel they have a chance in a subsequent election, then I'm guessing Harriet will be the next leader...after whoever loses the election. But really, I'm only guessing.

so it does make a significant difference to your previous point

Not a significant difference no. My disgust is at the plotters [i]in general[/i] and the damage they are trying to inflict onto the Labour - Party Purnell is part of that plot imo.

The fact that waited for the second hand to hit 12 doesn't impress me. The aim is clear - he resigned before the results were known so that's not the reason he's resigning, it's because Gordon isn't doing a good job ....... don't you know. Of course now that he's resigned early he can claim that he always supported the plotters so any political ambitions should be intact.

It probably is too late, but leaving Gordon in there is definately not going to help.

Kind of feel sorry for him, in a way he's a little like Major, probably wanted this all his political life, has taken over from someone with a much bigger presence who has continued to overshadow him and now I guess he's sitting there cursing Blair and the legacy he was left to deal with. Blair must be pissing himself right now.

You should go back and re-read your first post, GG - the first half was very definitely complaining about the damage it would do at the polls, not damage in general (the second half didn't really talk about either that specifically). So yes, a very significant difference. I could quote it if you like, but I'm sure you're capable of scrolling up.

I'm sure you're capable of scrolling up.

Yeah I've scrolled up and, I lumped him with, quote : "the rest of the New Labour self-serving careerists, and the "left leaning" Guardian newspaper" As I said, it was a general attack on the plotters, not particularly Purnell.

What's the problem ? You think I should be impressed that he personally, waited until 10 pm, although he was undoubtedly plotting, scheming, and encouraging others, all this week ? Sorry I'm not.

Or do just want to have an argument with me ? Maybe try to find holes to pick in a post which I quickly wrote ?

Wasn't it true though that Labour had accepted they were in for a pasting this time though? Jesus, even I didn't vote for them 😯

I'm not sure the timing matters that much anyway...regarding Labours dismal polling. He only waited till 10pm so he could hold his dirty hands up tomorrow and say "Who, me? Plotting? Damaging our poll results? Never!"

Here aracer, I've just scrolled up again, and I noticed that I wrote "eve of a major election". Well if I was referring purely to Purnell, then that is wrong. Purnell resigned on [u]election day[/u]. How come you didn't pull me up on that ?

Why don't you post on here asking me if I meant Purnell in particular ? Because if I did, then it means that I got my facts wrong.

Whilst you're doing that, I'll scroll up again and see if I can find anything else.

You think I should be impressed that he personally, waited until 10 pm, although he was undoubtedly plotting, scheming, and encouraging others, all this week ?

you're still being unfair on him

Shucks aracer, now you're making me feel bad 🙁

OK....... perhaps you right. Perhaps I just used Purnell resignation as a thinly veiled excuse to attack the plotters which have done so much damage to Labour this week.

Yeah you're probably right, the guy sounds like an OK kinda guy. He probably spent all week working very hard to keep the party united so that it got the best possible result in these elections. He probably is not a rat jumping from a sinking ship at all. In fact he'll probably make a great leader to replace Gordon Brown.

Shame I can't delete my original post as now, none of it makes any sense at all.

Everything and it's dog just goes around circles (or is it goldfish) are lessons never learnt!

I went to bed early, with rumours ringing in my ears that a resignation with a demand for BRown to go was due at 10pm, but didnt quite believe any of those spineless careerist actually had the balls to do it.

Ive said it twice that I thought they'd at least wait until the European Election results came in on Sunday/Monday!

The end of New Labour, and possibly the Labour Party will be televised.

As you say GG, time for a new party. Even then, it probably wouldnt be one for me, but it cant be right that such a substantial number of voters are disenfranchised with the current party offerings.

I'll be happy for Brown to be out but would sooner it happened at the general election, another unelected PM is not the right way forward. If the Labour party is sent packing perhaps it would be time to endite Blair and Co on war crimes charges for Iraq. Vote Mass Murder Vote Labour.

It would be cynical of the Labour party to have another coronation of, say, Johnson, and then hold out until June next year for a popular test.

To get some credibility back, they should have a proper leadership contest in the PLP, present a temporary PM to Parliament in the few weeks before the summer recess and dissolve parliament then so that a General Election can be run in September.

The end of New Labour, and possibly the Labour Party will be televised.

As you say GG, time for a new party. Even then, it probably wouldnt be one for me, but it cant be right that such a substantial number of voters are disenfranchised with the current party offerings

Weren't the same grumblings offered about the Tories in 1997 ? That there would be no way back for them ? Slightly different I suppose as I always suspect the electorate to be overwhelmingly Tory and Labour only ever form governments when people wish to dissent. However, predicting the end of the Labour party is rather wishful thinking by some.

paulosoxo - Member

The Guardian today were playing down Millibands chances of being next PM, I think he's the best man for the job personally. I still don't think Brown is dead and burried just yet though.

I agree that Milliband (Ed, not David) is the best person for the job, which is why he's better off not following Brown. Anyone who comes in now is just going to get defeated. Either of the Millibands would do better to let that happen and then give Labour a chance to regroup for 2014/15 after Cameron has c*cked the country up (i'm resigned to the fact that at the next general election the tories will win, there's absolutely nothing labour can do to stop this now).

The only way Labour can win is for someone who the public likes and respects was to take over, and therein lies the problem, they need someone with charisma who is capable of convincing the electorate that they should vote for Labour, no one is listening to what they say anymore.

The paradox is that we don't need a personality we need really strong leadership but until the public gets behind that leader they are a lame duck and unable to deliver anything anyway.

Cameron must be praying that Gordo stays on until the election. Brown as PM is the best asset the tories have. Perhaps with Johnston as PM and a completely new front bench team then power might be salvageable.

Rats
Sinking
Ship

It's interesting to note that while the markets rallied on rumours of the PMs resignation the pound lost $0.04 against the dollar. Seeing Gordon go may not be good for us on the exchange rate side of things.

Im not sure there was a rally/fall on any of the markets. The rumour was quickly quashed by No.10. My post on another thread was in jest. 🙂

if a week is a long time in polotics a year is time for a lot to happen.

Cameron cannot rely on Labour continuing to make mistakes. He hardly has a clean pair of hands over expenses himself nor does his party.

It would take a lot for Labour to recover but it is still possible to prevent a disastrous tory government. Make no mistake - a disaster it would be.

One thing struck me this morning is that having followed the political story closely for the last 12-18 months I like to think I have a fairly good understanding of the machinations, the horsetrading, cliques of allies and foes in the political picture which helps my understanding of whats going on behind the scenes in the rumours that come out before the leak to the BBC or the Telegraph. Think of it as having a wider vocabulary when reading a foreign language say.

But, in 1990 I was just 15 and certainly not interested in politics during the downfall of Thatcher. I wasnt then (and still am not really) equipped with the vocabulary of the dark forces at work behind the scenes from Howe or Heseltine etc. Even now when I read contemporary commentaries on the saga I dont feel I understand how things moved the way they did.

Make no mistake - a disaster it would be.

In your opinion, obviously.

The collapse of Labour is more and more coming about because of internal lack of discipline and authority from a Prime Minister who hasnt demonstrated much ability to carve a coherent and managed political programme over the last 18 months, NOT because of the odd expense scandal. As you say, both parties have much the same level of culpability in the expenses story, but it's Labour that will come off so much worse. The double edged sword of being the incumbent governmental party.

The collapse of Labour is more and more coming about because of internal lack of discipline and authority from a Prime Minister who hasnt demonstrated much ability to carve a coherent and managed political programme over the last 18 months,

Sadly all too true. He had opportunity and goodwill and squandered it.

But, in 1990 I was just 15 and certainly not interested in politics during the downfall of Thatcher. I wasnt then (and still am not really) equipped with the vocabulary of the dark forces at work behind the scenes from Howe or Heseltine etc.

I think this probably explains some of the more rabid anti-Labour/Brown views put forward on this forum. A lot of people aren't old enough to remember, or weren't working during the 1970's and 80's - sadly enough, I am.

bowglie - Member

>But, in 1990 I was just 15 and certainly not interested in politics during the downfall of Thatcher. I wasnt then
>(and still am not really) equipped with the vocabulary of the dark forces at work behind the scenes from >Howe or Heseltine etc.

I think this probably explains some of the more rabid anti-Labour/Brown views put forward on this forum. A lot of people aren't old enough to remember, or weren't working during the 1970's and 80's - sadly enough, I am.

Journalism (hawk...spit) has also moved on in the last 15 years.

BTW - do we really think he's going to give Alan Sugar a job?

Stoner - Member
BTW - do we really think he's going to give Alan Sugar a job?

Enterprise Tsar

FFS.

Oh, and John Hutton is standing down as Defence Secretary.

1019 No wonder Sir Alan Sugar was singing Gordon Brown's praises earlier - the businessman - who was best known for his Amstrad computers but who is now better known as the key man in the BBC television series The Apprentice - has just been offered a job as "enterprise Tsar", the BBC understands

Oh FFS. We are a nation who's government selection criteria: is failed footie club owner, failed company owner, successful property investor in a boom, TV star.

dum dum dum tsshhh another one bites the dust !! haha
Hutton bye bye bye

Stoner - Member

Oh FFS. We are a nation who's government selection criteria: is failed footie club owner, failed company owner, successful property investor in a boom, TV star.

He's a nice chap personally, however and has a fondness for cycling, so he's not [i]all[/i] bad!

Oh FFS. We are a nation who's government selection criteria: is failed footie club owner, failed company owner, successful property investor in a boom, TV star.

Oh dear! This 'enterprise tsar' thing sounds the like the same old nebulous guff that Thatcher trotted about the saviour of the country being 'entrepreneurs' (as if property developers and the owners of health clubs are going to enhance the countries export potential). I think all the main parties are as hopeless as one another in this respect though. A few months ago some research was done to find out how many members of the cabinet and shadow cabinet had science or engineering degrees; or had direct experience of working in manufacturing industry - They found a grand total of one! I would imagine that the same problem exists in the higher echelons of the civil service (degree in classics...my a**e!)

I'm glad Hutton is going - horrible bloke.

With all these rats leaving I'm actually wondering if there's more to all this.

He's a nice chap personally, however and has a fondness for cycling, so he's not all bad!

Null and void
[img] [/img]

I never said he had any sense of style, did I?

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/oh-for-christ%27s-sake-just-do-it%2c-britain-tells-labour-200906051805/ ]Meanwhile Britain's bookmakers have revealed multi-million pound losses after betting against someone in the cabinet having a pair of nuts.[/url]

I don't want a tory PM

You've got one. You've had one for years.
Selling school sports fields to fund tax cuts, making people pay to get educated, privatising whole swathes of the NHS, PFI/PPP deals which cost the taxpayer more for public services, going to war to win elections or because it keeps us sweet with America, introducing ID cards and doing it on the cheap. The Blue Tories can't win an election because the Red Tories are already there.

Selling school sports fields to fund tax cuts

I thought that was the work of the ultimate champagne socialist of all...the person who was that thick he was gagged in the lead up to elections.Mr "2shags" himself.You can't get more Labour than him.

[i]The Blue Tories can't win an election because the Red Tories are already there.[/i]

very very true
a hung parliament is the best we can hope for, and before people shout that would be disatsrous and lead to no laws being passed a lack of unity within government etc, just look at things now imho the major parties need to rethink how they are structured,

I have a real worry as well that if we have an election now cameron will sweep in without having to actually offer any policy whatsoever and especially not a concerted effort to reform the house, wages and expenses

a hung parliament is the best we can hope for,

In your opinion.

I have a real worry as well that if we have an election now cameron will sweep in without having to actually offer any policy whatsoever

Who did you vote for in '97, then?

Good point captain,as far as can see this situation is identical.Fony Blair never mentioned any specifics besides "change" back in '97 and let the Tories self destruct...sound familiar ?

There is a credible scenario for Labour to save itself. Doesn't even need a new leader now.

We need a few more weeks to establish exactly who did what in the expenses row. A large number of Labour MPs to be forced to resign their seats leading to by elections. Decisive action on expenses would go a long way. Outfox Cameron by actually being tough on the cheats not just talking tough

Then using the remainder of the time left in this parliament to finish the business of constitutional change. PR for Westminster and a better solution to the Lords. New man to fight the election for labour with a decent thank you and goodbye to Brown.

This should ensure a progressive coalition will continue in government rather than the conservatives.

Unfortunatly this would take political bravery and decisivness - something that seems beyond the Labourt party at the moment.

There is plenty of time to do this if the interests of the country are put first.

There is plenty of time to do this if the interests of the country are put first.

So, in that case, go to the country and ask them what their interests are, rather than simply looking for [i]"a credible scenario for Labour to save itself."[/i]

Well you see CFH - I don't believe the interests of the country are served by bowing to the moral panic stirred up by right wing media and I do believe that major constitutional reform would be in the interests of the country.

An election helfd now under first past the post would lead to a lndslide for the tories which I believe would be an utter disaster which would make the last year seem like a blip.

Sort out the expenses stuff first and constitutional reform then we should have the election.

So, the Guardian is "right wing media" now, is it?

Don't forget, TJ, you chose not to vote.

Don't forget, TJ, you chose not to vote.

Ah now, that's not fair! Not voting doesn't discount your right to an opinion - it might discount your right to challenge your MP on a broken manifesto promise or a policy issue but you're still allowed an opinion.

CFH - but that was MEPs - so I did promise not to comment on the Euro parliament but IIRC we were not voting for Westminster 🙂

The grauniad is merely meekly following the moral panic stirred up by the right wing media.

In all seriousness I don't believe that this is the right time to call a general election simply because the real issues would get lost in the expenses furore and I would like to weed out the fraudsters first - even if that means 100+ by elections.

"but you're still allowed an opinion."

but if you dont take the chance to express that opinion...

Im sick of all these politions who seem to spend their time playing politics to protect their jobs rather than sorting out the country.

We need economists, socialists, educators, financers, environmentalists, scientists, engineers, etc etc - not bloody politions running the country.

Rationaly they are the wrong group to run the country. The system is wrong, the people in it are wrong and we are wrong to perpetuate it.

Lets start with being able to vote for "none of the above"

Right, Im off now to the Bristol Bike Fest...........

Right, Im off now to the Bristol Bike Fest...........

Enjoy. I hope the weather's better than they forecast. I'm supposed to go up there on Sunday to give a few mates some mechanical and moral support.

"but you're still allowed an opinion."

but if you dont take the chance to express that opinion...

I know and I see your point. But not voting doesn't stop you having one. In fact, there's such a level of disenfranchisement I can hardly blame people for not bothering. I've been tempted myself, because it's the last vestige of a mandate that these corrupt eejits (on all sides of the house) have from the elctorate. So how about a mass "not bothering to vote" in the next election? Let's take the mandate away completely.

Hoon is gone - yahooooooo!

Far better off spoiling your ballot paper if you're that way inclined. They have to count those, and it shows you're actually bothered rather than simply being apathetic.

Far better off spoiling your ballot paper if you're that way inclined. They have to count those, and it shows you're actually bothered rather than simply being apathetic.

Aye, that's true. It's not a [i]really[/i] serious proposition on my part though.

There should be a "none of the above" option or "I think you're all a bunch of ****s" maybe but I'd love to see their reaction to a case of mass voter apathy...a real "we can't be bothered any more" attitude is what this country needs
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