[Closed] Goodbye BA

Shuddup foo! I aint gettin on no plane

Jolsa, isn't it time for your milk?

Union rule eh? Brilliant.

Want to be unemployed? Join a strong union.

Willy Walsh is tough as nails. They're looking to downsize the cabin crew anyway, i suspect ultimatums will be issued and the strike will be averted.

bloody better get back to work, i;m flying with them on the 28th. S.O. pissed off she's BA Cityflyer so is getting crap and not even involved in the industrial action

Want to be unemployed? Join a strong union.

Wise words. Save those monthly union subs and just let BA make you unemployed instead.

They'll make them unemployed no matter what the union do. That's if they actually manage to stay in business after this.

Interestingly unionised workplaces have better terms and conditions of employment ( better holiday pay / sick pay and better rates of pay), you are less likely to be unfairly dismissed or victimised and less likely to be made redundant.

proof?

As far as I can see and from my experience of being forced into a Union in the past, they do nothing but damage. If the management do relent and don't make people redundant then the company struggles to compete from that point on because they're now employing people who don't earn their keep.

Why do you think BA are taking these measures? For fun? Or could there be a sound financial reason for it? Is the continued success of the business more important than the staff that are being laid off?

you are less likely to be unfairly dismissed or victimised and less likely to be made redundant.

Shush will you TJ...why do you have to go letting facts and figures get in the way of a STW union bashing thread. FFS... 🙂

Why do you think BA are taking these measures?

To keep shareholders happy ?

It looks like either a very brave or very foolish move for a union leader to take their members into strike action in an industry that is forecast to lose $11 billion dollars in 2009 with no sign of any return to profitability until 2011 at the earliest.

Samurai - BAs responsibility is to their shareholders - so to improve profitability workers get shafted. In unionised workplaces shareholders get less and workers more as a share of the cake.

I doubt I can find you any facts and figures that will convince you

I am due to fly home on the 28th, will now have to book another flight with another airline just to make sure i can get home and use this ticket for the next rotation.

Normal score of holding folk to randsom at holiday times, good old Unions not.

BA are well past their best now and have been for a few years now IMO and to be fair i have no sympathy for companies who made huge profits for so long and never prepared for a downturn. Let the markets sort it out.

TandemJeremy my past experiance working in none or union companys
in the past Both companies put the share holders first and cut
throat the work force and pay less so nope do not agree on what
you have just written.

Grantway - the point being that in a unionised workplace with collective bargaining you have a better chance of getting a share of the pie than without unionisation.

In this case the intervention of the union will hopefully mean the pain is shared between all concerned - not just the workers being scarificed to maintain profits

Unions destroying English companies - who knew!!!!!! 🙄

[img] [/img]

One of the reasons I don't fly BA as they are shoddy, destroy your luggage and always on strike when you're about to buy tickets...

LOL@

Jolsa - Member
Shuddup foo! I aint gettin on no plane

The pain is going to be shared by all concerned.

BA will lose loads of business and that lost business will be picked up by foreign airlines who do the same thing, cheaper.

I will say with a union involved the people can have a chance
to save there own job and also the union may save more but to what
cost for the remaining staff in duties and the magic word of
flexibility

Flew BMI to the states as a Star Alliance booking, the facilities were superb and the crew were first rate. While there we flew with Ted internally again no issues. We had to change return flight because of a hurricane and wound up on some BA pos with goosed internal door seal where we were sat and no hot food, to be fair the cabin crew we were sat opposite (a Rochdale lass) couldn't do enough to for us and kept us supplied with brews all the way to Manchester.

I think striking over Christmas is a serious own-goal. Obviously they want to cause the maximum possible disruption, but the message that their customers are going to get is that BA staff are quite happy to leave them spending the Festive Period in an airport or paying a fortune for last minute flights.

I'm not flying this xmas but it shouldn't affect many flights from the poxy regional airport I and many others use - they're the ones with lots of decent direct flights and plenty to Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt.

Sorry BA but your policy of centralising on Heathrow lost my business yonks ago.

(Manchester's my local).

Or that the damage to profits will be so great that the management will negotiate rather than dictate?

if the management will negotiate in good faith the union will call the strike off.

"if the management will negotiate in good faith the union will call the strike off."

That rather supposes that the management actually have the financial headroom to negotiate. Given the state of BA's pension scheme, it's arguable whether the proposed changes to the terms and conditions of future staff (it doesn't impact current staff) go far enough.

BA Profits ?

[img] [/img]

Since they want to get rid of a load of cabin crew anyway, can't they just sack some of those on strike? No pensions to worry about, no redundancy to make, ideal.

Might be followed by a few more cabin crew but since the pilots can't strike the planes keep flying. Empty, unfortunately.

Number of problems caused by unions outweighs the advantages. Even though I am, sheepishly, still a member on mine. 🙂

I blame Thatcher, she should have done the job properly and killed off the Union Movement when she had the chance 😉

There are good unions and bad unions, same as good management and bad management. BA and the Post Office seem to have an abundance of bad unions and bad manmagement.

Thats me and two others booked on Afriqia from Tripoli to London on the 28th, actually the airframe is newer than BA, seats in Business are superior to the trash BA put on the London Tripoli route and the timings suit me better. Only downside it is Libyan and you cannot get a drink, no biggy when you are on your way home. BA has lost another 3k tonight just in my office.

So much for flying the flag for UK Plc,

Or that the damage to profits will be so great that the management will negotiate rather than dictate?

And that's where most of the union dogma falls to bits. Most unions can't see beyond the immediate needs and wants of their members. They seem to think it's just a case of the management not sharing out the profits fairly. Time to wake up, BA (more so than other airlines) has lost lots of passengers, it does therefore not NEED as many staff. If it does keep staff it doesn't need it will be even more uncompetitive and lose even more customers meaning it needs fewer staff still. See the spiral here? Royal Mail syndrome.

BA management have two choices, give into the unions and go bust (there won't be any government bail out for them) or slash jobs and have a chance of continuing to employ the remaining staff. I just can't see why the unionite collective bargining champions can't see this.

Unions do have a place, I've said it before, they need to be there to protect individual employees so they aren't victimised or bullied. They can help maintain and improve welfare and safety standards. They can even negotiate better severance deals when companies do unfairly select people for the chop. What they cannot sustainably do is to artificially keep people in jobs that don't exist.

Interestingly unionised workplaces have better terms and conditions of employment ( better holiday pay / sick pay and better rates of pay)

Can't dispute that, don't have the facts, to be honest it feels true. What would be interesting to know though is the percentage of unionised to non-unionised companies in different bsuiness sectors and compare that figure to say 10 and 20 years ago. Would be interesting to see if more unionised companies have gone to the wall. My guess is more will have but I don't have any facts to back that up. Better terms are only useful whilst your employer is still in business 😉 .

Business' tend to get the Unions they deserve, IME

Stumpy - or the 3rd option - negotiate to make transition as painfree as possible? Most unions when faced with reasonableness are reasonable - sometimes too much so IMO

nick c - absolutly right.

Shandy - Member
The pain is going to be shared by all concerned.

BA will lose loads of business and that lost business will be picked up by foreign airlines who do the same thing, cheaper.

Almost like the British motor industry....

BA cabin staff are already the best paid in the industry. BA pilots, engineers and ground crew have already realised that cutbacks are needed and are working with it. The effing union jobsworths are sticking their oar in, doing it over Christmas deliberately to **** up people's lives. Selfish tw@s.

*s****s*

Interestingly unionised workplaces have better terms and conditions of employment ( better holiday pay / sick pay and better rates of pay), you are less likely to be unfairly dismissed or victimised and less likely to be made redundant.

So they would be the mines, the shipyards, British Leyland, British Steel, the trainmakers, the UK electronics manufacturers...

Hardly any redundancies there then. Not arguing that union support is a handy thing to an individual, but the knobs at BA are looking at a fast way to join the dole queue.

Business' tend to get the Unions they deserve, IME

Pretty much spot on. P*ss poor British management in action.

Hardly any redundancies there then. Not arguing that union support is a handy thing to an individual, but the knobs at BA are looking at a fast way to join the dole queue.

Well some of the workforce in this country aren't meek and want to fight for their jobs, some of them will end up on the dole, this is action is merely part of the bargaining process to minimise the numbers.

The effing union jobsworths are sticking their oar in, doing it over Christmas deliberately to **** up people's lives. Selfish tw@s.

I would have thought that you of all people would appreciate the selfish nature of these people.

Unite claims the changes affect contractual terms and conditions. We believe they do not. The union failed to gain an injunction to prevent their introduction, but a full court hearing to settle the contractual question has been set for February 2010.

We do not understand why Unite is threatening you with disrupted travel plans now over an issue that the courts are preparing to resolve in a few weeks.

This is from the BA statement [url= http://www.britishairways.com/travel/statement/public/en_gb ]here[/url], now if thats true then the union needs a proper kicking, I think they reckon they are going to lose

BA cabin staff are already the best paid in the industry

Really!!???!!! No really!!??!!

Other half on a good month with lots of nights away brings home £1500 max. I'd hate to be in those other companies if this is the best paid. Or is it some minority to which you refer.

Don't forget CFH pines for the days of keeping the proles down and working them into an early grave.

Miss the knout do you?

I bet he misses Droit de seigneur as well

I'm with the strikers.

If they don't like the terms of their employment and they think that the strike will improve their T&Cs, then it's their option to withdraw their labour. Good luck to them.

It's a shame for anyone who has their travel plans messed up, but I think there are loads of regular people in regular jobs who are looking at bankers, MPs etc and thinking "hang on, how come these to$$ers get to award themselves whatever rates of pay they feel like, and the likes of us (in normal jobs) get told that we have to do more work for less pay?"

Ultimately I think it is very bad news for BA, but then again the whole airline industry is up the creek. The idea of unlimited future growth of air travel is a joke. Maybe better now than later - it's just facing up to the harsh reality.

ah now i know why i have a pikey van ,and stay in england,if maggie was in power would it make any difference.get back to work B.A .

For all the sympathy me or anyone has with the strikers, what good is it going to do when they are getting paid £29K vs an industry average of £14K in a heavy loss making business. Tough choices for all involved but to suggest BA have much of an option other than reduce pay or reduce headcount is fantasy. I know people there who have been constructively managed out, uncompetitively paid, or given 10% pay cuts in the last few years, none of them flight crew, but why should they be immune?

cabin crew have absolutely no idea how good they have it. In a country where virtually every sector is having at least a pay freeze, most cabin crew are being offered pay increases of between 5-7% for both this year and next.
Junior cabin crew earn 25-35k depending on the routes they travel. CSDs get upwards of 50k. It's not just industry leading, it's bonkers. Have you ever wondered why BA crew tend to be a bit older? because THEY KNOW THEY ARE ON A BLOODY GOOD DEAL, not just a good deal, a great one. I worked for BA for a while, and it was by far the best company I have worked for in terms of conditions, pay, perks etc.

It's sad to see a company being destroyed by the staff who it has looked after for decades.

idiots.

I've still got over a third of a million air miles can't have them going down yet!

After seeing firsthand the way my own union is misrepresented in the papers and television news, I for one will never, ever trust the media's view of what this dispute is about.
If the staff have decided to take action in this financial (and anti-union ) climate, then there's probably a damn good reason for it.

Or its sad to see a faithful and hard-working workforce being ****ed over by the bosses who wont take any share of the pain themselves?

TandemJeremy - Member

Or its sad to see a faithful and hard-working workforce being ****ed over by the bosses who wont take any share of the pain themselves?

a third of managers accepting redundancy

7000 employees accepting pay cuts

pilots agree to pay cut

engineers willing to accept some change

I just don't see why crew should watch everyone else suffer.

They said on R4 on the way home that about 92% of the BA cabin crew who poled, voted for strike action... that says to me that the BA management have done something to really piss them off!

So, does anyone actually know what the strike is all about? Or is everyone just jumping to conclusions and slamming the union? Except TJ of course... 😀

the point being that in a unionised workplace with collective bargaining you have a better chance of getting a share of the pie than without unionisation.

Since BA made a record loss of £292 million last year I make that a profit share of -£7500 per worker. Well done.

I fly a lot, mainly with BA and their cabin crew certainly don't warrant higher pay than those in competitor airlines. It may well be that other crews are underpaid but if your a BA crew member it's time to realise that you simply have not been providing the level of service that warrants higher pay than crew on other airlines.

On European flights the service in the air is no better than with Easyjet ( it's on the ground where Easyjet are poor in relation to BA not once your on the plane) and on long haul I've flown with BA, Emerates and Cathay Pacific in the last year and BA come last in last place in terms of service.

Again it's not really that they are ooverpaid it's that others are doing better for less. I take it that everyone supporting the strikers on here only uses bike shops and never uses CRC and Wiggle etc and is happy to pay more for the same or often worse service. Oh and has never of course ever taken a cheap flight.

[i]Or is everyone just jumping to conclusions and slamming the union?[/i]

Nah, that's pretty much what I was about. I think I was abused by a Union boss at some point in my childhood. Their angry militant faces really wind me up.

It's a business lads, get used to it, it's for making money for the shareholders. It's not being run for your benefit.

Oh I'm jumping to conclusions as well. Just arguing devils advocate really.

However as far as I can see the management want to impose changes to pay and conditions without negotiation. The Union are willing to meet to negotiate, the management are not.

~So the workers have a choice - accept changes that are significantly detrimental or threaten to strike in order to force management to negotiate which management are refusing to do.

At this point it is only a threat of a strike that management could avert by agreeing to negotiate - not to submit but merely to negotiate. 90% vote in favour on 80% turnout says a lot

I take it that everyone supporting the strikers on here only uses bike shops and never uses CRC and Wiggle etc and is happy to pay more for the same or often worse service. Oh and has never of course ever taken a cheap flight.

I actually have a bike mechanic on my staff who custom makes my bikes in a machine shop and of course I have a private jet with 3 crews working in shifts to make sure it's on standby 24/7.

Which of course still has no bearing on the situation.

If the workers aren't happy they have every right to walk. I'm sure they know the situation the company faces better than anyone.

Brinkmanship tactics. But not likely to win many friends or to enhance the reputation of unions. And, as with the Post Office, not really the smartest move to be making when the company you are working for is in deep doodoo financially. Well done chaps - let's have a strike where we can press for maintaining our wages and fail to see that we could take the company down and there will then be no wages at all. Strategic thinking there.

Cabin crew and unions I applaud your foresight and commitment to the uk economy.

I've used BA many times over the last 30 years for long haul flights, and since about 1990 it has been a last resort.

There has been something wrong with that company for a long time from the customer viewpoint, and that's got to be coming from the top.

as with the Post Office, not really the smartest move to be making when the company you are working for is in deep doodoo financially.Well done chaps - let's have a strike where we can press for maintaining our wages and fail to see that we could take the company down and there will then be no wages at all. Strategic thinking there.

Cabin crew and unions I applaud your foresight and commitment to the uk economy.

Curious that a number of half-wits here attack the unions for this when the responsibility firmly lies in the boardrooms of BA and royal mail. But of course British management is never at fault for anything.

Interesting article in [url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6956674.ece ]The Times[/url] this morning.

A study of strikes in the 1980s by economists from the London School of Economics found that the average increase in annual pay produced by strikes was only 0.3 per cent, while the average strike lasted 11 days. Each strike day, of course, costs the worker a day’s wages. The study concluded that the wage gain would have to be retained by individual employees for 30 years simply for them to break even. Not working, in other words, doesn’t work.

i have nothing to add other than that on the way home from Umerica the very generous and gracious cabin lady person gave me 2 gin and tonics and 2 mini bottles of wine.

This coupled with the various in flight entertainment options meant i had a rather excellent time in a BA plane.

Cheap too. Only £469 return to SF.

The "half-wits" are the cabin crews who can't understand the following.

BA need to cut their staff costs to remain competitive. They need to make redundancies or reduce wages to do this. This is basically simple mathematics.

Its symptomatic of how comfortable we are in this country that people expect to turn up at the end of the month with their hand out, receive what they determine to be a fair wage, and blame "the management" if things go wrong.

BA staff are facing the kind of cuts that have been going on in the private sector for months, its hard to feel sorry for them when there are 1700 people on Teeside who are really suffering.

The only union I have experience was of Unison. I found them to be blood sucking, whining, ineffectual parasites.

Shandy,

Its symptomatic of how comfortable we are in this country that people expect to turn up at the end of the month with their hand out, receive what they determine to be a fair wage, and blame "the management" if things go wrong.

I think it's more symptomatic of how comfortable some people are in this country, that they expect other people to knuckle under and do as they're told when they don't want to.

The cabin crew might regret what they're doing later, but really it's up to them isn't it? If you're not one of them, then who are you to decide if its a "fair" wage or if they are being treated "fairly" by management - these things are totally subjective - there is no right answer except for the individuals concerned.

Other half on a good month with lots of nights away brings home £1500 max.

That's a pretty reasonable income for a "non-specialist" job (not requiring a technical qual etc), and since nights away etc are part of the job description I'm not sure why they'd be part of the thought process.

Either we have a substantial number of captains of industry on here, or a lot more blinkered Thatcherite lickspittles than I previously realised.

I wonder which.

Why do people in this country look at an industrial dispute and automatically assume that it's the obstructive and protectionist union - and not that the management might be taking liberties?

Why does the involvement of a union dehumanise the individuals concerned? Can't you understand that they're just ordinary people like you who are trying to protect the terms and conditions of their employment?

Didn't anybody see the Panorama documentary on the Royal Mail last night? Didn't that give anybody a moment's thought that maybe unions aren't all commie troublemakers and maybe workers do care more about the jobs and services they do for you than their management does?

Aren't we all supposed to be staying off aeroplanes because it's killing the planet?

Why do people in this country look at an industrial dispute and automatically assume that it's the obstructive and protectionist union - and not that the management might be taking liberties?

Very good question, that I don't know the answer to. But it seems a fairly common assumption across the board, I wonder where that image comes from.

I don't think you are quite correct there. I suspect that what people are reacting to is the idea that the union are suggesting striking at the very time when business is peaking and that while there may be a dispute with the management and issues in the company, the union feel it is quite acceptable to hold passengers to ransom over it. They don't seem to be showing too much consideration to the travelling public by calling for a strike. Or did I miss something?

And will the union executive be forgoing their pay as part of the dispute as well? I think we all know the answer to that one as well.

Is the mangement of the company good? Quite probably not, to have got themselves into their current state and perhaps theirs is not the best business model for these times (they have historically targetted business passengers as their prime market and now suffer as business flyers choose non premium fares for travel) and maybe they are too slow in moving. So now they are trying to work it out and maintain the business to keep people in jobs. And a large percentage of the company is going with them.

As far as a flying experience I have flown BA a number of times and they are still amongst the best of the airlines I have flown with. Those that think they suck should try a carrier like United or Ryanair.

So it's O.K. to fly then, is it?

Why do people in this country look at an industrial dispute and automatically assume that it's the obstructive and protectionist union - and not that the management might be taking liberties?

It's a well documented fact that BA are fairly seriously in trouble. The majority of other sectors of the business have realised this, and actions have been taken accordingly by the means of redundancies, pay cuts and changes of employment terms.

Of course, in reality, no one wants a pay cut, or any change of working environment to their detriment but faced with the very real prospect of that or the other option of no job at all, I know what I would be doing.

Cabin Crew are fairly ostricised within the company anyway, this is just driving the wedge deeper. From the public's perspective its different to the recent RM strike, as they can, and already have voted with their feet.

Why do people in this country look at an industrial dispute and automatically assume that it's the obstructive and protectionist union - and not that the management might be taking liberties?

Because a Daily Mail editorial told us too. Silly.

Power to the people!!!!!

[img] [/img]

I bet he misses Droit de seigneur as well

Been watching braveheart too many times? It's not real you know!

pypdjl - Member

"I bet he misses Droit de seigneur as well"

Been watching braveheart too many times? It's not real you know!

[i] Really??[/i] I suppose CFH is real?

I'd have more sympathy if it didn't look like it was going to cost me several hundred pounds or mean I'll have to drive for about seven or eight hours.
Just as well I booked flights months in advance........BA won't be getting much repeat custom from me.