[Closed] Going Veggie

Where do you live?

A small town in Andalucia, though can get occasional access to a Morrisons and Lidl.

TBH it's a real pain in Spain to be a veggie, I tried it for a couple of years but it was really hard going - like you say, chicken is borderline vegetable, and as for ham... Be aware too that a lot of the "standard" ingredients in British cooking are often hard to get in Spain (at least in Madrid) - garam masala, to give one example, doesn't exist here. It might be easier on the coast, there are more international supermarkets catering to the expat population.

From a training point of view there shouldn't be any problem, just look up vegetarian diets on the net, loads of good recipes that you can cook that will cover all the nutritional bases.

It's a bit of a yank yee-ha, high-five sort of a website but there's some excellent links and advice here:

http://www.nomeatathlete.com/

I'm a long time veggie and it has never been a problem for me. I train and ride plenty and have no trouble getting enough protein.

Pros

- If you do it right it's healthier
- Potentially you can feel more ethical/morally superior 😉

Cons

- If you do it wrong, it's not good for you
- If get evangelical about it as many inadvertantly do, your friends will start avoiding you
- You'll fart lots more (this isn't really true but it's fun to wind veggies up about it).
- In lots of places like France, Spain, etc they'll think something's wrong with you and the veggie option will be the meat option less the meat eg Spag bol becomes plain spag 🙂
- Meat is nice - you'll be missing out!

So, that's more cons than pros which is why I'm not a veggie 🙂

I have been thinking about trying a vegetarian diet.

It's times like these you should think, what would my spiders do?

....meat it is then.

....and possibly the odd fly.

black beans (all beans really) are an excellent source of protein. I like bean burgers.

last night had em; soften onion, add some spices, add some beans, mash it up, squash into burgers and fry. can add breadcumbs etc.

keep an eye on your amino acids. when i looked at my diet i needed to throw more nuts and seeds in - i just added seeds to salds and nuts to stirfry and ate more nuts as a snack.

and vitamin b12 - mostly found in meat, but present in eggs, marmite and some fortified breakfast cereals.

i found this book quite useful

http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Sports-Nutrition-Guide-Performance/dp/0471348082

@roper - why are you thinking of doing it?

For health reasons or ethical?

I've been veggie since the early 90's.

I can't really comment on Spain as I've never been, but I can perhaps clear up a few myths.

The big one is that I think it's possible to have a healthy diet, or an unhealthy one, irrespective of whether you eat meat or not. If your diet consists solely of Big Macs, or solely of lettuce, you're going to be ill. Whichever you choose, try and get a balanced diet.

If you want to give it a go, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Do it gradually, and see how you feel. Maybe cut out red meat for a few months, see if you're happy, if there's any side-effects. Then if you want to carry on you can look at removing white meat and see how you get on there.

If eating out is a problem, perhaps you could go veggie at home but keep meat as a "treat" when you've no other option?

Both veggies and omnivores have their share of evangelists. Ignore them, they're invariably halfwits, and the problem with discussing things with halfwits is that they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

I'd love to come out, but I couldn't bear to bring the shame on my family... guess I'll just keep shoving meat down my throat.

Thank's for the help and links.

It's times like these you should think, what would my spiders do?

It is the same here mogrim. I live in a small town and chicken really was offered at the veggie option 🙂 Gibraltar has a couple of health food shops and a Morrisons, but don't really like going there though I could stock up.

stratobiker A bit of both. I'm not too keen on some of the mass farming methods and some are even worse where I live. I would like to see if I notice any health benefits and maybe be a bit kinder to my liver and colon 🙂 I do like a lot of vegetarian food too.

British cooking are often hard to get in Spain (at least in Madrid) - garam masala, to give one example, doesn't exist here. It might be easier on the coast, there are more international supermarkets catering to the expat population.

I didnt eat meat for a quite a while, but I recently started eating fish again so Im now a "Come Dine With Me" vegetarian.

I eat lots of vegetables, lots of fruit, quite alot of nuts and seeds, quite abit of fish and not much dairy. One thing to probably avoid doing is just eating cereal for breakfast, sandwiches for dinner and pasta for tea everyday.

If its for health reasons you would do better to look at eating healthy with all types of food in your diet.

I was veggie for years until I started dispatching in East London. You couldn't beat a proper slap-me-some-brekkie type of food when you were drenched and cold.
I'd like to go back but meat is an easy option. Can't be bothered with the hard ones at the moment.

I think it was discovered last year, and it eats algae.

Sound delicious!

Embajadores tio! You're just not trying hard enough, are you?

OK, I exaggerated, if you try hard enough you can find some. But you can't get it at a normal supermarket, and a "small town in Andalucia" isn't going to be any better...

My (then future) father-in-law's attitude pretty much sums it up - when told I was vegetarian, his comment was: "But he eats ham, right?"

Personally I'd just cut down on the meat.

Bacon sarnies.......is the only thing I could not give up.....otherwise I would go veggie ! 😉

- Meat is nice - you'll be missing out!

If you genuinely think this (OP) then don't bother, you won't stick to it. Just have a few more meat free days, eat more pulses etc.

This is the thing non veggies seem to find hard to swallow, like it's some kind of self flagellation.. I don't like meat or fish, be that by nature or nurture now, so it just isn't an issue.

The main benefit of fully buying in is that you do tend to think a lot more about what you eat, which doesn't sopund like it's a problem for you anyway.

Lots of people saying just cut down on meat? Can I ask but what's the reasoning for this? Meat is an incredibly healthy food so unless you have beliefs etc that mean you don't wish to eat meat then there is no reason to try and cut down on it, nearly all people should in reality aim to eat a lot more meat than they do now.

nearly all people should in reality aim to eat a lot more meat than they do now.

Not trolling but can I ask what evidence you have to prove that?

I was going to ask that too

No problem, can really point to any good sources that will explain quickly though as I have read many books on this and also I see a sports nutritionist as well. Generally its best to find some information on the paleo diet (hate that word) which is ok, but is very extreme in cutting out carbs. But a book co-authored by Joe Friel (of training bible fame) called The Paleo Diet for Athletes is an adjusted version to account for this and is a very good read full of excellent information on what's needed during and after exercise to aid recovery etc overall a good source of information easily explained.

As I say its difficult for me to really explain this (and poor citing on my part), I would point you to the Facebook page of ON4Sport and suggest taking a look back through the posts as he links to lots of good information from many different sources and the advice does work, I'm generally quite sceptical but his advice has worked far better than I could have hoped for.

Well I'd be inclined to take that [i]"nearly all people should in reality aim to eat a lot more meat than they do now. " [/i] with a large pinch of salt. (But they like their salt in Spain.)

But Spain an veggie? I'd certainly do it, but it pretty much puts paid to eating out. (But that's a bonus in Spain he says..taking cover.). But you should be able to buy beans and nuts by the sackload in many places. What you won't find are convenience food type veggie things. (If convenience food's your thing), personally it isn't mine.
So you'll ned to work harder, but if you find good markets, they will be a mecca for proper hard-grown salads and gnarly vegetables.

And there are probably almond orchards on your doorstep. - A goldmine. You could hardly be better placed for some good things in life..

This is the thing non veggies seem to find hard to swallow, like it's some kind of self flagellation.

For some people it is. I've seen some veggies turn into drooling wrecks at the prospect of a bacon butty. I just don't get that; if you want it that badly, have one. Why do something that makes you miserable?

Lots of people saying just cut down on meat? Can I ask but what's the reasoning for this?

Because the OP said he wanted to?

As a wild generalisation, the Western diet usually contains far more protein than we actually need.

Don't.
You are not designed for it, it's dull, pointless and your social life will dwindle as the people around you become increasingly tired of accommodating your late 20th century foibles.

If any diet requires special care and attention or food supplements to avoid malnutrition then you cannot claim you were not warned.

You are not designed for it, it's dull, pointless and your social life will dwindle as the people around you become increasingly tired of accommodating your late 20th century foibles.

... in your opinion. Funnily enough, the range of food I eat has increased massively since I went vegetarian, and far from being the social pariah you allude to, people come round to my place for dinner on a regular basis.

If any diet requires special care and attention or food supplements to avoid malnutrition then you cannot claim you were not warned.

You only need to take a supplement if you have a bad diet, and that's true whether you're veggie or not.

Perhaps I need to make some rash generalisations too. "Eating meat gives you a blinkered view of the world and makes you intolerant of anyone who does things differently from you!" Wow, see how easy it is to make stuff up!

Don't.
You are not designed for it, it's dull, pointless and your social life will dwindle as the people around you become increasingly tired of accommodating your late 20th century foibles

We were 'designed' to eat raw meat (one of the supposed reasons for the appendix) but we jacked that in too.

If anyone wants a moral high horse type argument, my understanding is that land is used more efficiently and productively to produce food for a vegetarian diet, so it's a better way to meet the growing populations requirements. But I couldn't give a toss either way what you do so fill yer boots.

As a matter of interest though, how many meat eaters would eat the 'petri dish' meat that labs are trying to grow at the moment? I'm not sure if counts, but count me out anyway.

how many meat eaters would eat the 'petri dish' meat that labs are trying to grow at the moment?

If I was confident that it was indistinguishable from 'real' meat I'd have no problem with it - though obviously it'd depend on whether it ended up as a source of cheap but poor quality meat or was used to reproduce the currently full range of meat - eg from crap to excellent quality. I don't eat meat because I want to eat bits of a previously living animal - I do it because it's nice to eat.

I don't see why arguing the ethical reasons for doing this is worth it? If the OP is doing it for ethical reasons then that is their decision if it is because they want to be healthier and have thought of going vegetarian for that reason then I think it best to look at improving the diet including all food types before making such a change if that is the desired outcome.

my understanding is that land is used more efficiently and productively to produce food for a vegetarian diet

My understanding is actually the opposite - that if the world went veggie overnight, there isn't sufficient unpopulated land to create the arable farmland we'd require.

Could be wrong though, I've not read into this for some time now.

how many meat eaters would eat the 'petri dish' meat that labs are trying to grow at the moment?

Quorn?

Not quorn (at least as I understand it) - muscle grown separately - just like a plant really - rather than ever having been part of a living animal.

You are not designed for it

Oh, your one of them.

Thankfully we've actually evolved, and can now decide not to include meat in our diets and still live a long, healthy life.

Acutally, in evolution timescales, we haven't at all. What we have done is learnt how to eat different food from what we've evolved to deal with by managing the exact (veggie) foods we eat to mimic the food we're actually adapted to eat.

Bullshit

Hardly. Besides you're a bit touchy on this, especially as I think I was basically agreeing with you, just pointing out that we haven't evolved, merely learned/adapted to mimic that diet without eating meat. Our bodies are still 'designed' to deal with an omivorous diet.

I like a lot of vegetarian cooking and when it is on offer I tend to go for that option. The main problem I have is like mogrim said, it is not part of the culture here, though that is changing.
We do have a great selection of beans, lentils, almonds, dates and figs on offer. People here tend to eat sunflower or pumpkin seeds over a packet of crisps, so in some ways I am spoilt. The problem is meat is also easily eaten with every meal of the day, from dripping in the morning to jamon at night.
I find I feel better after a good veggie dinner than a meat one, and enjoy cooking it too.
I think my weakness will be sea food. Living near the sea we get regular fresh catches and fresh ensalada pulpo is fantastic on a summers day 🙂

Fish don't count because they don't have feelings...

As far a design is concerned I though we can do all. Some cultures have been veggie for thousands of years, others only option is meat and fish. It depends on where people have lived and other conditions. It's not as simple as on way, the other or both, it's more choice.

Funny enough it was jamon that lured me back onto meat, in an Andalucian village (possibly Grazalema).

Hike across the mountains took much longer than expected and I arrived famished. The vegetable soup came with ham in of course, and I was so hungry I just ate everything in front of me.

If I hadn't been diagnosed with high cholesterol I think I'd buy a leg next time I go out there. Mmmmm.

Go for it Roper,

I've been veggie for 8 or 9 years now.

Why am I veggie.

1. I love good veggie food. You have to be a little creative but that exposes you to so much more choice. In fact the food I eat is much tastier than I ever had as a meat eater. I used to love a steak but now can't really see the appeal.

2. It's healthier for you. As far as most of my research suggests. You'll always get people claiming one way or another. All I know is that I've done a lot more physical stuff as a vegetarian than most meat eaters - including a 6 month bike tour and climbing a 6500m high mountain.

3. I like riding my bike in the forest NOT in fields. The world population is increasing, it is getting more affulent it is eating more meat. More meat production puts pressure to convert land to grow feed, consume fresh water supplies and then to grow livestock = more pressure on forests = less singletrack (or at least less opportuinity to develop new singletrack as competing groups vie for precious wilderness areas).

I'd rather more singletrack than more meat.

Oh and there's that climate change thing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/oct/27/vegan-vegetarian-stern-climate-change?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

and water consumption

http://www.veg-soc.org/PDF_Downloads /'Eating%20Up%20the%20World'.pdf

So I prefer the taste, am healthy and have the side benefit of not helping to destroy the environment that I want to ride my bike in.

P'raps I should stop the rant now.

Anyway enjoy the spinach and chickpeas in those Tapas bars and get ready to learn some cooking skills.

Vegetarian is healthier than your average diet, but this doesn't mean its healthier than a diet that includes meat. Vegetarians tend to think more about what they eat and therefore that leads to good health. Cutting out meat isn't what makes it healthier, but more the attitude to what you eat which is definitely a good things either way because societies main problem is that people don't consider what they are putting into their bodies and poor government guidelines done help.

And saying we have evolved to allow us to cut out meat is very incorrect, we don't evolve that quickly and as was said above it is that fact that with a modern understanding of what is in each food type that vegetarians can substitute different foods to account for the loss of nutrition from cutting out meat that it works.

Mostly its a matter of a varied diet. Not hard.

The only thing which might possibly be a problem (in my research) are some vitamin b levels. But thats fixed if you have sufficient variety.

Fish don't count because they don't have feelings...

Fish don't count because they don't have fingers.

Yes they do. they're in my freezer.

the evolution thing is such a crap argument. what about the appendix?

My understanding is actually the opposite - that if the world went veggie overnight, there isn't sufficient unpopulated land to create the arable farmland we'd require.

what about all the arable farm land to feed the livestock that would essentially be freed up? (i don't know that answer to this but i think you are wrong??)

Yes they do. they're in my freezer.

Good point, well made.

roper it could be a huge jump, try and get a few meat free recipies under your belt before you give it up completely. luckily i went from a 50% meat free dinners house to vegitarian so i wasn't completely lost.

my favourite recipies

bean chilli w/ rice, wraps or tortillas
veggie jambalaya
srir fry
bean burgers w (sweet potato) chips
curry (vegetable koftes)
onion bargees (good in salad too)
salad

[url= http://jeenaskitchen.blogspot.com/ ]jeenas kitchen[/url] always a good idea or too.

anyone who is veggie find that they couldn't face white meat but red meat seems more appealing? i could go for bacon/ steak but chicken makes me feel funny.

Roper
[i]"I think my weakness will be sea food."[/i]. Then what you need is to go seaweed collecting! Believe me, get some Atlantic Dulse (the red frondy stuff), and drop that in a stir fry. The closest thing I could place it to is shrimps (I used to eat creatures ~35 years ago and I loved Suffolk shrimps). I'm quite addicted, and can't wait for my next Devon holiday to stock up again.
Who says veggies have a boring diet? Many meat eaters visiting our kitchen can't even identify what we have stored up in half the jars!

the evolution thing is such a crap argument. what about the appendix?

Screw the appendix, it's just a crap argument. What on Earth evolution has got to do with dietary [i]choice, [/i]I have no idea. As points for or against a veggie diet goes, it's up there with "you can't be vegetarian, you're wearing leather shoes!"

If "evolution" (for want of a better word) has given us anything, it's the luxury to have food in such plentiful supply and so readily available that we're at liberty to make these choices. Sadly, the choice many of us seem to be making is "fried breakfasts and cake."

Who says veggies have a boring diet?

the would be FIL says this a lot. he eats 7 meals a week. same meal each day of the week!

to give him his credit he does change the roast meat and accompaniments on a sunday.

Please explain why the idea of evolution is a poor argument?

It doesnt affect your choice as to whether to eat meat or not but it does affect what your body requires with regards to correct nutrition and so it is important to consider this. The modern diet of a typical person is very high in refined carbohydrates and our bodies are not able to deal with this hence the high amount of obesity and poor health around the world.

It is not an argument against being a vegetarian as many foods can be added to replace a large amount of the nutrients lost through cutting out meat. But to ignore what our bodies are designed to deal with is dangerous, but currently the greatest issue with modern diets are refined carbohydrates not whether you should eat meat or not. Meat would give you the more optimal nutrition but as proven by the numerous healthy people around the world who are vegetarians it can be done without meat as effectively.

[i]what about the appendix [/i].
The appendix is a repository for important gut microrgansisms. Especially useful in children who may flush them out with more regular bouts of diarrhoea, and the appendix can then help re-population. It shrinks in adults and is less useful, probably a result of them suffering said problems less readily. It's only modern Western medicine which incorrectly sees it as useless.

Please explain why the idea of evolution is a poor argument?

Because it's irrelevant? What difference does it make if our genetic ancestors were carnivores or herbivores? What's important is what we are now.

It doesnt affect your choice as to whether to eat meat or not but it does affect what your body requires with regards to correct nutrition and so it is important to consider this

No. See, the body doesn't require "meat" or "carrots," it requires things like protein, carbohydrates, vitamins. Our bodies are very flexible in the manner in which it'll accept those nutrients.

Has the nutritional requirement of our bodies changed significantly over the years due to evolution (as opposed to the invention of the Xbox and pies)? You said it yourself, "we don't evolve that quickly," that's why it's a poor argument.

currently the greatest issue with modern diets are refined carbohydrates

The greatest issue with modern diets is the amount of high sugar, high fat, high salt convenience food that's readily available. A shortage or an excess of anything is sub-optimal.

High fat is not a bad thing, and carbohydrate is sugar. The low fat myth is one of the greatest mistakes ever made.

Heres a nice article giving some information on what is now well known in the scientific community but has not filtered its way down to government guidelines

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html
and a more scientific one
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/PIIS0899900710002893/fulltext

And where does correct nutrition in my statements become meat or carrots? As I have stated I have nothing against someone going vegetarian but to argue it as being healthy against meat eating is wrong as eating meat is also healthy if the diet is done well. My point is the body is designed to require certain nutrients and it is optimally designed to get this from some sources over others. Doesn't make it wrong to get it from these other sources but it isn't optimal.

But Spain an veggie? I'd certainly do it, but it pretty much puts paid to eating out. (But that's a bonus in Spain he says..taking cover.

Used to be true, and may well still be true in coastal resorts like Torremolinos, but no longer the case in major cities.

Going back a bit,

what about all the arable farm land to feed the livestock that would essentially be freed up? (i don't know that answer to this but i think you are wrong??)

I was including this. My understanding is that it takes more land to sustain a veggie diet than it does to support the crops and fields required for a meat-based one (I think it's in the order of threefold more space required).

I'm basing this standpoint on an article I read in Wired a couple of years back, which looked into what would happen if we all went veggie (I think it was part of some wider 'green issue' or something).

I've no idea how accurate their research was or if it had been made up on the spot by the office junior, and I've forgotten half of it now, so I'm quite happy to be proved wrong.

High fat is not a bad thing, and carbohydrate is sugar. The low fat myth is one of the greatest mistakes ever made.

[i]Simple [/i]carbohydrate is sugar. The "low fat myth" probably perpetuates largely because people eat too much of the stuff. Too much fat is bad. Too much sugar is bad.

Well, actually, as I'm sure you're aware that's an oversimplification. Which is the problem, it's simply, ah, not that simple. There's different kinds of fats, different kinds of carbs etc etc, and they all interact in complex ways that we're still making new discoveries about. And people don't like complicated answers (which is why religion is still so popular) so bite-sized axioms like "eat less lard" prevail.

As I have stated I have nothing against someone going vegetarian but to argue it as being healthy against meat eating is wrong as eating meat is also healthy if the diet is done well

No arguments here.

My point is the body is designed to require certain nutrients and it is optimally designed to get this from some sources over others. Doesn't make it wrong to get it from these other sources but it isn't optimal.

Again, I completely agree. What are we arguing about, again? (-:

I have no idea :p

I will say though that yes nutrition is complex but the idea of eating less fat is a poor one, the only real bad fats are the refined fats such as vegetable oil or other things you find in mass manufactured products. Eating healthy fats is a very good thing, so long as the carbohydrates are not refined types (white pasta, bread etc) which spike insulin release in the body and insulin is the hormone that deals with storage so if it is spiked then the body is geared to store the food you eat rather than using it.

I was including this. My understanding is that it takes more land to sustain a veggie diet than it does to support the crops and fields required for a meat-based one (I think it's in the order of threefold more space required).

I'm basing this standpoint on an article I read in Wired a couple of years back, which looked into what would happen if we all went veggie (I think it was part of some wider 'green issue' or something).

I thought it was just the reverse of that:

Energy essentially comes from the sun via photosyntheseis in plants (of course nitrogen fixing etc also plays a part but without sunlight and warmth from sun it would all stop), and the more living things that energy passes through before it gets to your plate, the less 'efficient' it is.
[img] [/img]
If you could survive eating that grain diet that mass-produced cows are fed, you would get far more energy from the grain direct than if you ate a cow that had eaten the same amount of grain.

Also sheep goats and chicken are ace, but a phenomenal amount of methane in the atmosphere is there because mankind has proliferated the poplulation of cows over the centuries.

Roper,
Lots of good recipes also on the BBC good food pages swell.

You can probably also get dehydrated soy mince in bulk quantities if you want to go down the meat sub route.

If I think of something else...

My understanding of it was: rearing animals requires more land than producing crops, but you can farm animals on land you cannot farm for crops.

I think youre right bit you still need to plant more crops to feed the animals.
I always look at pasture land and imagine if it was turned to forest how much cool singletrack could be built.

I think we've got row 5, column 3 well and truly covered, with a good go at row 3, column 2 as well.

[img] [/img]

With respect to the OP, I'm vegan in país vasco, meat eating capital of Spain?
Never had it so good, three veggie restaurants in town, one vegan. Herboristerías on every street selling veggie junk food if that's your bag. I struggle for stuff like curry spices but can pick them up when I'm in France or get a mate to post them from Barcelona. My experience of omni restaurants has been very good too, they seem more willing to help you out than their UK counterparts. For example I went to a wedding couple of weeks ago and with no warning the caterers knocked up five courses for me despite having 300 guests to feed. I don't think you will have any problems.

Fairly obviously if you eat 1 kg of grain you get all the energy. If you give it to an animal it wastes loads staying alive etc. More people can be fed with a veggie diet etc as to whether we should that is another question.
Graham fancy meeting you here Cochineal and whey free wafer biscuit for sir?
Shall we speak in code?
Redwood 😉

neither my wife or i have ever eaten fish or meat, do eat dairy though. we both grew up in vege households so we just know how to eat properly and how to cook. bummer going out but getting better(i dont like eating out much). we are fit and never over weight, this is not id say from being vege but the fact that it breeds an awareness of food/nutrition. tbh id be more worried about getting good home cooked balanced food in you, meat or not.

Eat what you want who cares. Meat makes nice landscapes, think peaks or dakes, lake district as opposed to linconshire. Was surprised by the amount of rubbish in some processed vegy food though. I don't care about the death bit of eating meat but I do worry about them chopping down the rain forests to grow soya to feed to animals, suppose it is also dairy though.

Well done for the op for telling us what his eating preferences are. I had veg lasagna tonight, tomorrow I was thinking of lamb shepherds pie, what else are people eating this week?

what else are people eating this week?

hello!

johnnie, i'll see your Redwood and raise you a Fry's...

Meat makes nice landscapes, think peaks or dakes, lake district as opposed to linconshire.

One way around these grain fed animals if your concerned about that is to look at sourcing from a butcher that gets its meat from grass fed organic farms. Also grass fed animals provide far healthier meat than those from grain fed "factory" reared animals.

Although obviously if everyone in the world did this it brings with it the same space issues.

With respect to the OP, I'm vegan in país vasco, meat eating capital of Spain?

Nah, my wife's from Extremadura, much worse!

To be honest, here in the arse end of Spain, in our small town, we still have horses tied up outside bars. Certainly no veggie or vegan restaurants,lol. We do have one which only serves meat and cheese but to be fair to them you do still get olives 🙂

A couple of colleagues have just 'discovered' corn fed chicken and grass-fed beef and are raving about it. "tastes like meat did when i was a kid" etc.

I think there would be an argument to say that you would be happy with a smaller amount of really good meat in a meal in a restaurant, rather than a large amount of bland cardboardy meat. In the same way that really good cheese is way more satisfying than three times that quantity of cathedral city, and one proper coffee if better than three nescafés (or an infinite quantity of 'mellow birds').

Linconshire and the like were a lot more beautiful, biodiverse and better environmentally when they had mixed farming, instead of monocrop deserts. I am pretty sure that mixed rotation farming is the most environmentally friendly in this country, problem is not what you eat, most of it is grown with oil anyway.

Roper, I think you should give it a try. Plus I don't see why you have to go the whole hog 😆 .....why not just give up the stuff that you think isn't good? You could still eat the fresh fish.

FWIW I was a psuedo veggie for many years. I always ate fish, but no other meats, and no farmed fish like trout and salmon, unless I knew who caught it and where. I even used to check the ingredients on packets of biscuits to see if they contained animal fat. I didn't eat meat because of the way it is reared. However, since I moved to France I started eating meat again. The difference being that I know exactly where the meat has come from and how it has been reared. I ride past it on my bike!!!! I think if it has been reared with respect, that's OK (I may be wrong).

Please let us know how you get on.

SB

Are you still here?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.