[Closed] Going on holiday.... Maas negligence?

bunch of idiots especially those flying to go on holiday - and stop the ruddy whinging when you get quarantined.

Right at the beginning of this I knew that leaving scotland was not going to happen for me this year as I knew it would be incredibly stupid

I don't think going abroad is a good idea just now. Same as going for a big piss-up in the pub on a Saturday night or going to a big football game or concert.

Other opinions are available.

Just do what you think is right... Personally, I've had a lovely time cycling and camping around Scotland. In fact, considering fitting in another wee tour before the weather turns.

I know of someone who went on holiday early August to Spain then missed two weeks work due to having to self isolate, got full pay because he "worked" (sent a couple of emails) from home. Not his fault though. Aye, right.

I’ve travelled from Sweden to Spain twice this Summer and will do it again in October. The Authorities at both sides have said this is OK.

Just do what you think is right

That is not the right approach as many people think it is okay to go on holiday as long as they can get back in time to avoid any of that pesky quarantine.

Flights, and holidays outside of UK, should never have been allowed and the justification that it is to save the airline industry, or retain businesses doesn't hold up (unless the government has interests in those businesses of course)

Yeah, I'd tend to agree.

I love a holiday as much as anyone, but this supposed 'need' for one is bizarre.

Nope i believe most of the spread is being blamed on young people not social distancing and in people spending time in each others homes. In reality it is many factors, back to work, school, pub, shops and people who would spread or catch it on holiday are the types just as likely to do that in their own country. It never went away in Germany or uk so it is creeping back. Nothing to do with crossing an arbitrary border. Particularly within Europe.

It's not difficult to imagine someone who prioritises their 'need' for a holiday will also prioritise their 'need' to work/go out rather than strictly adhere to a quarantine or masking. Confusion and rule-bending is not helped by the mixed messages of the government. People returning from holidays, people not being paid whilst isolating, the return to school and people being encouraged back into offices could be a seriously toxic mix. The next fortnight will be telling. The boarding school here has got kids back but I haven't really noticed yet whether there's much of an international mix as there usually is. You'd need a wicked sense of humour to send your child from S Korea to go boarding in Boris's UK. This year I had tickets for Spain, Armenia and Georgia (no refunds yet) but it's going to be two nights in Norfolk and that's taking a bit of thinking about.

If it wasn't for the need for group travel, going "away" on holiday wouldn't be a problem just because it was in a foreign country. I'll not get on a plane/bus/train in the near future but I probably would still sit in my car on the train to Europe.

If I was careful about my choice of venue and how I behaved there it easily could be safer than a break in the UK

What about those poor countries that depend almost entirely on tourism?

Where do you draw the line in any of this? Is it negligent for anyone to go to a supermarket when home deliveries are available? Is it negligent to leave your house for exercise?

A better testing and trace system would be the most effective thing.

No. Going on holiday in itself isn't negligent or selfish.

Not following social distancing, mask wearing rules, quarantine and all the other advice is the negligent, selfish and stupid thing.

And if you can't trust yourself to keep to those rules, then you shouldn't have gone.

At this stage doing anything than following the previous full lockdown measures is likely to lead to a rise in cases. Somethings like return to school at least has some justification behind it, others like holidays, going to the pub, socialising... not so much. You can't really call them negligent though if they are officially allowed.

Looks like we're at the start of the second wave though and the effect of schools opening hasn't really hit the figures yet so not sure what the government do next, I can see a gradual increase in the number of local lockdowns and then a national one again

The role of government is to lead and occasionally take unpopular decisions, like forcing Barry from no.32 to go without his holibobs in Marbella this year. Sadly this government doesn't want to do anything like that.

The role of government is to lead and occasionally take unpopular decisions, like forcing Barry from no.32 to go without his holibobs in Marbella this year.

I do wonder whether the decision to add Spain to the quarantine list was in part a show of strength when negotiating Spanish fishermen's access to British waters post-Brexit?

Going on holiday in itself isn’t negligent or selfish.

Not following social distancing, mask wearing rules, quarantine and all the other advice is the negligent, selfish and stupid thing.

This. It's got little to do with the location and a lot to do with the lack of social distancing.
The current rise is being driven by "youngsters" who couldn't give a shit.

Sadly this government doesn’t want to do anything like that.

Obviously this is not really true. It's an incredibly hard balancing act - I can only imagine with dread what a labour gov would have done when put under pressure by all the trade unions (including those of the pilots, airport workers, etc.)

There’s growing evidence (see Wales) that a lot of the recent growth of cases is coming from the same place it did the first time around - travelling into the country via air travel.

Go Figure, the government knew that before they opened the “air bridges”.  Yet we have to protect the industry....  right?

Seeing the infection rates rise across Europe and just about all of these rising figures being blamed on holiday makers.

Are theses holiday makers not massively negligent and incredibly selfish?

Why do they need to jaunt across Europe for their two weeks on the beach?

Pisses me off....

To the OP, what do you suggest we all just sit inside until there is a vaccine? The reality is this virus isn't going anywhere anytime soon and we have to live with it. For reference 2 weeks ago they think they finally got rid of polio. Its scary and stressful and making people act irrationally. People could also point the finger at yourself and say going for bike rides either in a group or solo is selfish. You don't "need" to do it just like people don't "need" to go on holiday.

I guess young people don't really give a shit about what the government tells them because they perceive the government as not giving a shit about them

The current rise is being driven by “youngsters” who couldn’t give a shit.

That'll be the same youngsters who are the primary care, retail, pub and cafe workers on zero hours contracts and on the job loss front line and generally living in expensive rentals being tutted at by all the retirees, by to let landlords and safely working from home bods. Can't really blame them myself.

I'm sure young people having fun are contributing to the rise in infections but it's also a very easy moralistic target for blame. As above many live in shared accomodation with no gardens, and work in service industries etc

The whole message around holidays and eating out is very confused though. There's not really any way to see it except 'well it's a bad idea but, you know, jobs and stuff'

Can anyone tell me what the spacing is like on planes at the moment, I've been on trains, buses and tube in London and its been maybe 90% mask wearing and easy enough to socially distance, so not too high a risk imo.

To the OP, what do you suggest we all just sit inside until there is a vaccine? The reality is this virus isn’t going anywhere anytime soon and we have to live with it.

Correct, we do have to live with it. But that phrase inherently means making compromises, not expecting to continue as normal. Otherwise you'd just be "living", no? I expect the government, who after all have the best data on the highest risks, to choose actions designed to minimise these risks. Sadly, it's clear they have failed repeatedly and thus I trust myself to mitigate the risks to me and my family.
Look at Australia and the actions they've taken in the past few months. Aren't you envious of that?

That’ll be the same youngsters who are the primary care, retail, pub and cafe workers on zero hours contracts and on the job loss front line and generally living in expensive rentals being tutted at by all the retirees, by to let landlords and safely working from home bods. Can’t really blame them myself.

And the same youngsters who will foot the bill too.

Tbh it's not youngsters I see kicking about the same pubs every day, it's the local silver militia on pensions that enable them to do so.

Youngsters are an easy target for the likes of Hancock, as he knows he's appealing to these same semi alcoholic pensioners.

’m sure young people having fun are contributing to the rise in infections but it’s also a very easy moralistic target for blame.

Agreed, from my perspective I'm disappointed to see many people not adhering to the school's mask policy at drop off. You have to wear a mask for about 100m FFS, not much to ask. Cases are low here so it's not even about lower transmission, more to show the communities around the school that we actually give a shit.

It’s an incredibly hard balancing act – I can only imagine with dread what a labour gov would have done when put under pressure by all the trade unions (including those of the pilots, airport workers, etc.)

Yeah, thank god for Boris, Trump and Bolsonaro - think what a mess a Labour government would have made of things compared to them!

We went to France, drove there, stayed with friends in a quiet village, rode on our own in the hills, then drove back.

Probably similar CV-19 risk to being at home, interacted with one other family.

Can anyone tell me what the spacing is like on planes at the moment, I’ve been on trains, buses and tube in London and its been maybe 90% mask wearing and easy enough to socially distance, so not too high a risk imo.

I've had to wear a mask the entire time I am on the plane. No food or drink is served and there's no garbage collection by staff. Minimal social contact.

In Sweden, I don't need to wear a mask at all. In Spain, I must use a mask at all times and there is handgel everywhere. Two countries with very different strategies yet it's still safe to travel between them. Anybodies guess which strategy is right.

To the OP, what do you suggest we all just sit inside until there is a vaccine?

No, he’s suggesting travelling abroad on holiday increases the risk of the infection spreading.

Agreed, from my perspective I’m disappointed to see many people not adhering to the school’s mask policy at drop off.

What policy? I've heard nothing about this from our school. I'd be happy to wear one if this was a requirement, but communications seem poor. Our schools drop off is all at one of multiple entry gates at staggered times.

Nope i believe most of the spread is being blamed on young people not social distancing and in people spending time in each others homes.

In Scotland where we have effective track and trace actually more than one outbreak is directly traced to flights from holiday destinations

Some folk decided to put an oaf in charge, buck stops at the top as far as I'm concerned.

No, he’s suggesting travelling abroad on holiday increases the risk of the infection spreading.

I don't think the virus is particularly fussed about national boundaries. Going on holiday anywhere increases risk, as does any activity which increases social interactions, but it's a balancing act.

I think the risk from holidays depends heavily on what you do and how you get there. Being outside in hot weather is one of the safest things you can do. On the other hand, planes sound like an ideal way to spread it.

I think it's easy to sit here with 20-20 hindsight and say it was a terrible idea, and it's not like there wasn't a lot of people saying so at the time, but we were told it was safe and Covid was on a steep decline.

Personally, I don't think travel was inherently unsafe, and I can't help but think a least some of it was to do with Brexit negotiations are much as Covid, but the fundamental problem is that Pandemics are incompatible with being on a carefree holiday.

Here in Wales they seem to have pinpointed the spike in cases in Caerphilly to a 'lads holiday' to a Greek Island. A group of them all went on Hols together, then returned and carried on their holiday with a bar crawl. The result is a big spike in cases.

You've only got to look at #caerphillylockdown on Twitter, there's more than a few people who just don't care and there are enough greedy people out there happy to take their money to let them into 300+ capacity "Bars" which are all but Night Clubs in anything but name, Airlines who aren't happy to just be able to operate, but still want to sell drinks to people who are supposed to be wearing masks. The attitude seems to be "it won't hurt me".

I find it very frustrating when we have to enforce rules and regulations on everyone, because of the actions of stupid and selfish people, but as much as I've enjoyed going to the Pub in the last couple of weeks, it seems you just can't trust some people to not be dicks.

Also, FYI the Labour led Gov. in Wales and NHS Wales is citing Young People as the cause of the virus spreading.

In Scotland where we have effective track and trace actually more than one outbreak is directly traced to flights from holiday destinations

But do you not think that if those people had carried out social distancing while they were there then there may not have been an issue?
As is said it's not necessarily the location, it's the actions of the people at that destination - wherever that may be.

Over the last few weeks I've seen - every night - large groups of 16-30 year olds heading for the beaches in N Wales after the pubs closed at 10pm - zero social distancing. I'm pretty sure they would have done the same wherever they were on holiday.

TJ has posted some evidence of where the increases have come from, what else is there?

He said that "more than one" outbreak had been traced to people coming back from holiday - not all of them.

In Scotland where we have effective track and trace actually more than one outbreak is directly traced to flights from holiday destinations

And quite a lot of others traced to other events and activities.

Stupid people doing stupid things, either at home or abroad

yep - other have been traced to folk meeting up in houses, others to bars, others to workplaces. Hence the targeted restrictions.

Going to an area with higher incidence than where you are is of course and increased risk. This is why I will not go to England this year either 😉

This is why I will not go to England this year either

See, even Coronavirus has it's upsides... 😉

As is said it’s not necessarily the location, it’s the actions of the people at that destination – wherever that may be.

Indeed, giving people the green light to head off for a couple of weeks in the sun, where they will have a few drinks, feel relaxed, shake off the worries of pox ridden COVID Britain, get to know others...that’s not in the slightest bit risky, as long as they behave themselves while they’re there.

Correct, we do have to live with it. But that phrase inherently means making compromises, not expecting to continue as normal. Otherwise you’d just be “living”, no? I expect the government, who after all have the best data on the highest risks, to choose actions designed to minimise these risks. Sadly, it’s clear they have failed repeatedly and thus I trust myself to mitigate the risks to me and my family.
Look at Australia and the actions they’ve taken in the past few months. Aren’t you envious of that?

For some a compromise will be not riding a bike with friends or travelling X distance for a bike ride. Its all relative some people live for a holiday others live to ride their bike. Its easy to point fingers but, we need to reflect on our own actions and maybe wonder how those would be viewed by others before pointing fingers. Whats it they say about pointing the finger 3 point back at you.

No, he’s suggesting travelling abroad on holiday increases the risk of the infection spreading.

The same could be said to those travelling to a local trail centre or going to wales for a weekend of riding. People need to relax and realise everyone is different and will do and want to do different stuff.

You’ve only got to look at #caerphillylockdown on Twitter, there’s more than a few people who just don’t care and there are enough greedy people out there happy to take their money to let them into 300+ capacity “Bars” which are all but Night Clubs in anything but name, Airlines who aren’t happy to just be able to operate, but still want to sell drinks to people who are supposed to be wearing masks. The attitude seems to be “it won’t hurt me”.

100% agree with this! I've done one or two shifts delivering groceries in the Caerphilly area and pretty much every 3rd one was a load of booze and party food, a few I've interrupted the parties! Been the same in Cardiff but not as prevalent with no students here yet, the older generations are carrying on though. The spread is happening for one main reason: irresponsible socialising.

Back from Lithuania and northern Poland to Germany. IMHO SD and mask wearing in these countries is the same physical distance and as effective as home (Germany). We expected border checks but nothing, just drove through.

Protests, pubs, bars, restaurants.. what you do in proximity of others, or not if you avoid these places, is more important than actually being in a particular country.

We were very fortunate in that we could drive to holibobs in Central Europe....

The same could be said to those travelling to a local trail centre or going to wales for a weekend of riding. People need to relax and realise everyone is different and will do and want to do different stuff.

Only if you share transport with a couple of hundred other people on the way there

On holiday right now. I was concerned about flying but the plane was at most half full - probably safer than taking the tube. Heathrow was very quiet.

Now I'm here I'm not going inside anywhere, not into cafes, not eating out, choosing quiet beaches, one quick shop in a small supermarket. I'm safer myself here than I am at home and I'm doing my best to not be the one who brings infection here.

That’ll be the same youngsters who are the primary care, retail, pub and cafe workers on zero hours contracts and on the job loss front line and generally living in expensive rentals being tutted at by all the retirees, by to let landlords and safely working from home bods. Can’t really blame them myself.

This. Nobody gave much of a shit for youngsters when they triple locked pensions, began tuition fees etc etc etc.

On holiday right now. I was concerned about flying but the plane was at most half full – probably safer than taking the tube.

Interesting study on air recirculation in vehicles and covid.

https://twitter.com/AliNouriPhD/status/1301706435429117952

TL:DR It's not about the distance between you and your fellow travellers, if someone has it at the front of the vehicle, it can be evenly distributed all around the passenger compartment.

We went to Norfolk and socially distanced. The trip to Colorado is on hold. Son2 missed his trip to Japan.

Three of us are flying to Northern Ireland on Friday and I will be driving Son2 to Ireland for his University course. He will self-isolate in-hall for 14 days (but does not officially have to from NI) with his classmates from Spain and Scotland. We are staying in an isolated cabin for one night (avoiding all contacts including the owner!) then returning via Northern Ireland. I would be happy to self-isolate on return and work from home, should the quarantine situation change.

Norfolk was lovely - obvs not as nice as Devon (God's own county), but very pleasant.

Only if you share transport with a couple of hundred other people on the way there

No, but you're still doing something that isnt essential and you will be with a few hundred people when you get there none from your own house hold. i feel like you missed my point but oh well. have a nice day.

100% agree with this! I’ve done one or two shifts delivering groceries in the Caerphilly area and pretty much every 3rd one was a load of booze and party food, a few I’ve interrupted the parties! Been the same in Cardiff but not as prevalent with no students here yet, the older generations are carrying on though. The spread is happening for one main reason: irresponsible socialising.

Yep, Cardiff City centre is supposedly looking a lot like it did pre-covid, bars are packed, Social Distancing largely ignored.

The Police say they don't have the numbers to tackle it, they're still flat out with the usual public order stuff, it's up to the Bars to ensure they're compliant, which up to now they're not. It took a big spike and people flooding Social Media with videos for them to act, 6 of the big bars have got until tomorrow to sort their shit out, or they're being closed down, I just don't think it can be done. I mean we're talking about the same kind of people who buy plugs for seatbelts so they can drive without them out, without the warning bells going off, it's THAT level of stupid we're dealing with.

I went on 13 foreign holidays last year, so suffice to say I love travelling.

Since lockdown has eased, we had a brief thought of a week in the alps, but a quick think about the risks both to us and others, made it a no brainer to stay at home this year.

The places I want to go will still be there in a couple of years when this is under control (assuming a vaccine is available by then)

I mean we’re talking about the same kind of people who buy plugs for seatbelts so they can drive without them out

WTAF

Just wait until the 1m+ people move around the country this week, mixing from all areas of the UK, Europe and beyond.

Yes, I am talking about universities, and yes my family is one of them.

you will be with a few hundred people when you get there none from your own house hold

Can you really not see that being outside in the fresh air where it's easy to social distance is completely different to sitting on a plane with air con circulating round?

Aye, there's always been "fresher's flu"

Can you really not see that being outside in the fresh air where it’s easy to social distance is completely different to sitting on a plane with air con circulating round?

But thats not my point. For some people travel is their thing much like riding a bike for the majority here. You can't bemoan people for going on holiday when they could likely do the same for something you yourself are doing. Is going on holiday essential no, is travelling to ride a mountain bike essential no... you can just ride a bike from your front door.

The risks maybe less (outdoors and such) but the risk is still there (stopping for petrol, touching the parking meter, visiting the trail shop) and if zero covid is the plan and we all must bee good citizens all we should be doing is going to the shops for food as little as possible and exercising as little as possible from home. There is a lot of grey area and everyones is different.

I mean we’re talking about the same kind of people who buy plugs for seatbelts so they can drive without them out,

My neighbour has one of these. Coincidently, she thinks face masks restrict your breathing, so she wears a visor for work.

if zero covid is the plan and we all must bee good citizens all we should be doing is going to the shops for food as little as possible and exercising as little as possible from home

Yes I'm already doing all that. So what you're saying is that some people are better citizens/less selfish than others? I agree.

Travelling might be their thing
But cycling does not involvr travel to airports, full of randoms, sitting on a plane, full of randoms quietly hoping the hepa filters go down to. 1 micron
Getting on a greek transfer coach that had had 100 randoms on it already that day
Or i put on my bike gear, go ride bike in open countryside and woodland areas and can stay 100mtr from everyone
Biking is my thing, holidibobs isnt

I dont get the mentality of having to go away like it is essential and bad things will happen if you dont. Maybe people think being awaybin a warm sunny place makes you covid immune

I would not do it. But I can't consider it negligent or selfish, when it's being encouraged by governments.

Further on the blaming of young people, stats for England in the last 2 weeks split by age group on a recent BBC article. More people over 30 than under 30 testing positive. So I'm calling politically motivated bullshit on the claims that only young people are the problem. Everyone needs to take more responsibility themselves and cast less blame around.

I live for my holidays usually taking 2 or 3 a year often one to europe. this year I have had one in a quiet part of scotland. Its no excuse. risk is cumulative so every time you take a risk you increase the cumulative risk.

There is a lot of grey area and everyones is different.

Getting on a plane and breathing the same air as another 100-300 people for several hours isn't grey at all, its a high risk environment.

Going for a ride on your own in the countryside isn't grey either, its a very low risk environment.

I really don't see how you can equate the two.

I dont get the mentality of having to go away like it is essential and bad things will happen if you dont

I don't really understand it either, but as I've said in previous threads, we are all in different mental health spaces. For some folk it's way more important than it is for others. It's not fair to simply dismiss others perceptions as irrelevant.

Quite surprised by the breadth of responses on here. My view is that if Cummings can do what he did then others have a carte blanche to do whatever TF they want really.

That's a lame copout and you know it. ^^^^

Yes I’m already doing all that. So what you’re saying is that some people are better citizens/less selfish than others? I agree.

To be honest i didn't expect a different response thats easy to say over the internet. But, its not about being selfish its about doing what you think is best and not passing judgement on others.

Getting on a plane and breathing the same air as another 100-300 people for several hours isn’t grey at all, its a high risk environment.

Going for a ride on your own in the countryside isn’t grey either, its a very low risk environment.

I really don’t see how you can equate the two.

two words. Up. Lift. Many are not riding on their own, myself included.

Im not equating the two as the same at all. Everything has higher risk than others thats all im saying. As i sit here with a broken hand after a weekend out on bikes potentially riding bikes wasn't the wisest decision i could make during a pandemic.

Im simply saying you and anyone else may be partaking in activities that others deem negligent and its not for you to pass judgment on what others do. Is riding a bike in a pandemic doing a dangerous sport negligent? Try looking at it that way.

We drove to the french alps for 2 weeks biking this summer and loved it. Did feel like I was doing anything wrong? No, no one at the UK border coming back even asked where we had been which I thought was odd because Spain was on the quarantine list at the time but not France so clearly UK border force weren’t interested about it.

The bit I really struggle with is that healthcare workers are exempt from doing quarantine! I even have a letter informing me that I am exempt. Surely healthcare workers working in hospitals would be top of the list of occupations you would want to quarantine before the return to work.

Careful Chrismac, with comments like that you risk being called negligent and selfish. There are groups of people who seem to expect us to just sit at home with the lights off until this thing blows over totally ironing the mental health implications that will have.

The bit I really struggle with is that healthcare workers are exempt from doing quarantine! I even have a letter informing me that I am exempt.

I really thought this was over now? Partner works for the NHS too and was told if she goes on holiday she would still have to isolate.

Getting on a plane and breathing the same air as another 100-300 people for several hours isn’t grey at all, its a high risk environment.

Plenty of sourses state that their HEPA air filters take out viruses.

My Spanish rental Villa has been full all summer and is pretty low risk, guests drove here and all live together as a family, find quiet beaches and shop individually, or so they tell me.

I have them all on whatsapp so that's contact tracing taken care off.

Oth I go to uk soon and have to stay in 2 weeks, ok fair enough, will do. The problem is the bars in the spanish towns, they re packed and no-one wears a mask as they are drinking. No way I d ever go in, it's an outbreak waiting to happen.

We went to the southern alps for two weeks beginning of August via tunnel, was booked last december and advice was that its ok to travel so we weighed up the risks and decided that we could probably social distance easy enough over there in a very quiet location compared to what some places were like here in the summer. I would have lost a fair bit of money if we hadn't gone and that's not something i have a lot of so we took all the risks on board and off we went. Had to isolate when home for 14 days which we thought may happen but was easy enough in the end. We don't go to pubs or socialise in big groups at home so I don't believe I can be classed as negligent when you see some of the things happening in some of the cities and towns over here with bars pubs and tourist areas heaving with people, mass protests with no social distancing at all. Idiots will be idiots no matter what country they are in.

To answer OP’s question

YES

Going on a holiday, travelling around during a pandemic is jus plain stupid.

Isn't the question 'Promoting travel without adopting adequate border testing & tracing..... negligence?'

Where I've just travelled to has a comprehensive border testing programme and has very little community transmission as a result. Almost all current cases are imported.

I mean we’re talking about the same kind of people who buy plugs for seatbelts so they can drive without them out

I mean surely they're not legal to be sold in the UK?

*checks interwebs*

Oh.

OH!

That's a special kind of stupid.

squirrelking

I mean surely they’re not legal to be sold in the UK?

*checks interwebs*

Oh.

OH!

Well that beeping noise can be bloody distracting, trying to open a beer and steer with your knees at 90mph is difficult enough as it is without that racket going on. 🙄

Greater Glasgow has 43 cases per 100k last week. Almost anywhere in England has lower cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/08/coronavirus-uk-map-confirmed-covid-cases-and-deaths-today

Probably higher than most of Europe lower as well.

Just need one of these to go with the bottle opener.