gordimhor - Member
I'm quoting from the UN
That's nice an all, but actions speak louder than words. Which of the 193 nation recognise this catalan state?
seosamh77 - MemberYou had about 25% support for independence in 2001, not even everyone of them would have though you've had been allowed a vote. For the other 75% thoughts of independence weren't even on the radar.
I think maybe we're at crossed purposes but there's a difference between thinking a vote will happen, and thinking it'll not be allowed. The Scottish indepence movement, for as long as I've been an adult, has worked on the premise of getting a referendum from Westminster. In 2001, we didn't expect a referendum because we knew it was pointless, it'd have been a drubbing. But we expected that if it became the will of the scottish people, we'd have one.
In all my life, the only people I've found who thought that Westminster would never allow a referendum, were nutters.
North wind, yes I did, as I said, find a lot of evidence that economic gain was the primary motivator for many Catalans wanting independence.
[i]As you said[/i], you claim you found evidence that economic gain was a motivator- which it certainly is. But you didn't say you found any that it was the primary motivator, and you didn't say it was about "making the rich richer"
We're patient, we can wait a bit longer.
Northwind - Member
seosamh77 - Member
You had about 25% support for independence in 2001, not even everyone of them would have though you've had been allowed a vote. For the other 75% thoughts of independence weren't even on the radar.I think maybe we're at crossed purposes but there's a difference between thinking a vote will happen, and thinking it'll not be allowed. The Scottish indepence movement, for as long as I've been an adult, has worked on the premise of getting a referendum from Westminster. In 2001, we didn't expect a referendum because we knew it was pointless, it'd have been a drubbing. But we expected that if it became the will of the scottish people, we'd have one.
In all my life, the only people I've found who thought that Westminster would never allow a referendum, were nutters.
I supported independence at the time, tbh I didn't think there would be a vote for it in my lifetime at the time, I thought the parliament we got would have curtailed the idea for a long time, but I still argued to my mates that we should vote on the basis of it. At the time I was distrustful of the SNP, so promoted the idea that we should vote the socialists as a protest vote, not purely for independence mind, but that was part of it. Part of the protest was just to show support of socialist ideas too, not that we actually thought socialists would achieve them, but that that vote may influence the thinking of the larger parties.
In the next 13 years, the support for independence didn't really change either, what changed was that the SNP just got increasingly better at manipulating the British government into allowing one, imo.
Tbh I don't actually think the Catalan separatists purposes here are actually to go ahead with UDI, as they must know that on the unilateral basis, it's doomed. I suspect this is all still part of their plan to manipulate the Spanish government into a vote. (The confrontational nature of it will also increase support for it too, imo, which I think is a tad suspect and potentially dangerous.)
Northwind, You seem to pride yourself on your admirable skills in pedantry as a method of attack on others opinions and assertions. A simple goggle search throws up plenty of Catalans saying they want independence because they think they pay too much for poorer spaniards. They recognise they're richer already, but want independence so they'll be richer still.
Seosamh The UN does give all peoples the right to self determination . It is actually in article 1 of the UN charter.
It is a fact that the UN and its members are choosing not to recognise Catalonia as an independent State but that is a different question.
I am not expert on the legal definition of a people but if the UN accepts that Catalans are a people then they are entitled to a free and fair vote on independence.
Gordi, i know what it says, but ultimately the UN is little more that a talking shop and it's subservient to it's members actions. Some of those members have much more sway than others.
If the UN was respected at it's word as law that must be followed, there wouldn't have been a war in iraq for example.
Doesn't that kind of prove North winds point then. This is all about power. Both the UN and the EU have been very quiet on Catalonia. Spain is in debt to the EU for 1 trillion euros. You can see why the EU would be against Catalonia becoming independent.
Course it's all about power. Don't think eu nation's not supporting it is anything to do with money, more turkeys not voting for Christmas.
csb - MemberNorthwind, You seem to pride yourself on your admirable skills in pedantry as a method of attack on others opinions and assertions. A simple goggle search throws up plenty of Catalans saying they want independence because they think they pay too much for poorer spaniards.
It's not pedantry; it's accuracy. You said one thing and now you're defending it with something else, finding "plenty of catalans" does nothing to prove either part of your point- either that it's the primary reason, or that they want to make the rich richer.
Since you've not provided any evidence at all to support your statement, and you're now pretending you said something different, I think it's pretty much an admission you were wrong. But I don't know whether you were mistaken or whether you just wanted to demean the Catalan's position.
Plenty of folk seem to agree with me that the motivation from Catalonia appears to be economic. I can't do links and you appear more interested in belittling people than making worthwhile contributions. It's probably more interesting for the actual debate here if you just post the counter evidence for Catalan motivations.
csb - Member
Plenty of folk seem to agree with me that the motivation from Catalonia appears to be economic...
So your anecdotal consensus is more important than the the voters in Catalonia?
It doesn't matter why people want to be independent.
What matters is that they want to be independent. Some may want it for economic reasons (allegedly the Catalans), some may want it for racial purity (eg many Brexiteers), some may want it for religious reasons, and some may want it because they don't like being ruled by another country.
The reason for independence is up to the people actually voting for it. Their will is what counts.
some may want it for racial purity (eg many Brexiteers)
Care to quantify how many brexiteers seek racial purity?
Their will is what counts.
And if a minority choose for the larger whole?
piemonster - Member
And if a minority choose for the larger whole?
What? Like Brexit in Scotland?
It does help if you can go to the voting booth without getting your head beaten in. If you apply terror tactics to people who turn up to vote, then you can't use the fact that there's not a full turnout in your argument against it.
Care to quantify how many brexiteers seek racial purity?
Are you saying no Brexit voter was motivated by racism to preserve "englishness"?
The perception within Spain and internationally of why they're doing it includes their economic motive. Success at declaring independence seems to depend on international recognition. They aren't having much success at convincing people, perhaps because it appears Ill motivated?
Are you saying no Brexit voter was motivated by racism to preserve "englishness"?
Not at all. But ive no real evidence to how much it’s a factor. That’s why I used a question mark!
There’s wanting to control immigration,and there’s racial purity. One does not automatically mean the other.
What? Like Brexit in Scotland?
It does help if you can go to the voting booth without getting your head beaten in. If you apply terror tactics to people who turn up to vote, then you can't use the fact that there's not a full turnout in your argument against it.
Yes,exactly like Brexit in Scotland. (UK wide vote debate aside)
You’re right, the Spanish state decided to be *****. And that’s clearly unacceptable, at least to me it is, the international community doesn’t seem to care.
But before concluding an opinion either for or against I need some evidence beyond what we have. What little evidence I’ve seen out width the referendum is not conclusive.
You could equally well say the Spanish and Catalan unionist desire to prevent Catalan independence is economically motivated,
Fair point but who knows exactly where xenophobia stops and racism begins.There’s wanting to control immigration,and there’s racial purity. One does not automatically mean the other.
Gordimhor, I believe that is Spain's motivation. And rightly so in my opinion, they have a duty to represent the economic interest of the wider Spanish population.
I don't believe that the economic benefit to the majority of a state should overrule the right of a minority people to hold a referendum on self determinationin their region.
/\/\ agree with that
Ideally the two things should be possible at the same time.
The larger state should act in the interest of the whole whilst respecting the rights of the part.
Gordi, say hypothetically, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen all want their own independence votes, post IS.
Do they all get their votes, and all on a fleeting 50%+1 ruling?
Yes, if enough councillors who want it are voted through to enable a majority and a referendum was in their manifesto then I'd say that would be right.
I think the problem is like any rule it will just break down at some point
Is it at towns, cities, streets or houses ? who knows but the argument will break down.
However the lets ignore them [ as th emajority dont want them to leave the [ super] state is also untenable as you cannot make people stay in a country [block]they dont want to
Would the UK have to stay in the eu if the eu voted and said nope we want you to stay so there
Essentially you actually have to look at the merits of each case rather than think you can have some universal law that will always apply.
Don’t try that rational pragmatic thought bullshit. It’s got no place on this forum.
Essentially you actually have to look at the merits of each case rather than think you can have some universal law that will always apply.
More or less, but I think you could probably apply some valid tests to it, is support overwhelming(I think this is important, I've developed my opinion since 2014) and is it sustained over time. Now the definition of overwhelming and sustained are up for debate, but I think they are valid things that need considered. The whim of a majority isn't really valid imo.
Not to say that I think Catalonia shouldn't have a ref, i think they should and it's probably the only way to solve this issue.
The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer,
It's very easy to come to this conclusion, and comparisons like 'how would London feel if they were ruled by Manchester' are also easy to come by. However I think it's much more complex than that. The history of the civil war and the Franco regime is a large part of it, so it's not just about money.
I can't believe the Spanish govt are considering charging Puigdemont with 'rebellion'. That to me would seem like a very easy way to fire people up. Every mass-movement benefits from a martyr or two. Look at Northern Ireland.
Ha! So the leaders of this brave rebellion have scarpered to Belgium. It seems once they realised they could be looking at the inside of a prison cell as the price of their principles they had second thoughts.
Game over. Well played Spain.
dazh - Member
Ha! So the leaders of this brave rebellion have scarpered to Belgium.
Aye tbh, quite obviously planned by the looks of it, considering there was no real attempt to take any power beyond declaring it. Spain could easily scupper them completely by saying, right, no charges, come on back.
I was wondering all along what the final game plan was and if puigdemont was actually willing to spend time in jail, obviously that was never in the thinking and the hope was that exile would mobilise the masses..
pretty feeble tbh.
dazh - Member
Ha! So the leaders of this brave rebellion have scarpered to Belgium. It seems once they realised they could be looking at the inside of a prison cell as the price of their principles they had second thoughts.Game over. Well played Spain.
The previous time the leaders were executed.
How brave would you be, internet hero?
Also they are still free to exert influence whereas in a Spanish gaol there would be nothing heard from them.
Companys sounds like he atleast had the courage of his convictions though.
He sounds like an interesting character actually worth reading into more. (I'd to google, I'd no real knowlegde of him.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llu%C3%ADs_Companys
I can't believe the Spanish govt are considering charging Puigdemont with 'rebellion'. That to me would seem like a very easy way to fire people up. Every mass-movement benefits from a martyr or two. Look at Northern Ireland.
Agreed they have legal powers to regain control and the power [ as in military/police strength] to do it if required. Given that punishing the leaders just creates martyrs for the cause as does making them flee to be a government in exile thereby creating a permanent opposition you cannot even talk to for they are aw fleeing traitors.
They have made a bad situation worse
I cannot see hwo they can do it well but the only method is via discussion and a respect for democracy - this does not mean a blind adherence to the constitution as it seems many in the region do genuinely want to leave and you cannot just ignore that with the full force of the law as real sedition
will appear and quite likely terrorism.
Not sure how this gets resolved now but i fear decades of basque like troubles.
What a strange state of affiars. Spaniards seeking political asylum in Belgium 😯
@dazh Far from game over, this is just going to make Spain look daft as they have to grovel to ask for extradition (which I imagine will be declined, no treaty between Slain and Belgium ?). Then you have the Catalans able to say and do as they please. If there is another election the exiled politicians can take part in interviews, social media campaigns etc
A right mess
Or you might say Catalans seeking asylum in the (former) Spanish Netherlands which Belgium was until 1714. Oddly enough that was the year of the siege of Barcelona too.
Who knows what will happen from here on.
Just like to publicly apologise to dazh for for my earlier comment.
It was supposed to sound ironic, but failed.
Cheap shot, sorry.
don't have to grovel if they don't charge them with anything.grovel to ask for extradition
No need to grovel at all, just issue European Arrest Warrant, far fewer ways to fight than standard extradition treaty. That said, can't imagine them being holed up in Belgium is a bad result for the Spanish Government.
Just like to publicly apologise to dazh for for my earlier comment.
Really not required (but thanks anyway). I've long since grown out of being offended by anything said on here. Just a bit of fun innit? 🙂
Back to our rebellious heroes though, I have no real opinion either way on whether the independence campaign is a good or bad thing. I do find it amusing though that it's leaders jump ship at the first sign they may have to suffer the consequences of their actions. Did they think this was a game?
I assume they figured spain would negotiate rather than imprison them as traitorsI do find it amusing though that it's leaders jump ship at the first sign they may have to suffer the consequences of their actions. Did they think this was a game?
I assume they figured spain would negotiate rather than imprison them as traitors
That was a bit stupid of them, the PP's never shown any particular inclination to negotiate.
I don't think for one moment the Spanish govt had this all planned out. They dropped the ball when they failed to allow the vote in the first place, all the polls seemed to indicate the vote would be remain.
Once done though, they had no choice but to play hardball, and I'm willing to bet money there as much disbelief in Madrid as here that at the first sign of things getting tough they'd leg it to Belgium (of all places)
Bizarre.
