[Closed] Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!

I can't imagine that fleeing to Belgium was an easy decision. Leaving your country, home, friends and family behind in order to be in a position to promote your cause? There's not many would do that.

Junkyard - lazarus

I assume they figured spain would negotiate rather than imprison them as traitors

I assume they expected the people to be up in arms and start demanding independence.(Their call for civil disobedience that was ignored suggests that) They've clearly miscalculated peoples knowledge of history, or rather willingness to remember IME (imo they are obviously trying to create a ridiculous franco-ist link and play on emotions) and they've also miscalculated peoples actual desire for independence and willingness to do anything about it beyond a bit of a party and flag waving.

I think they've calculated charges all along, they scarpered and lawyered up extremely quickly. That suggests pre meditated to me.

I doubt Puigdemont will go down as one of the great political thinkers of our time.

Press Conference due soon.

Emily Maitless made the same point last night on Newsnight, the bizarre spectacle of Spain seeking extradition of politicians from Belgium whilst they claim asylum. You couldn't make it up. Reading some of the background the Belgian politician who publicly offered them asylum is himself a Flemish separatist who wants independence from Belgium.

FWIW Spain had no choice, the Referendum was illegal, you have to take action against those who called it or you are yourself in breach of your constitutional duties. Where they have mismanaged it is calling in external police and dragging women voters out by their hair.

seosamh77 - Member
...I doubt puigdemont will go down as one of the great political thinkers of our time.

Any cause that can get that many people out on the streets, or for that, that many people willing to risk getting their heads beaten in when going to vote without violent response, is a movement.

New leaders will emerge as needed.

It is also good the cabinet has sought asylum because it removes a potential flashpoint for violence if they were arrested. As people committed to a non-violent campaign, I'm sure the Catalan govt ministers had this as a plan B all along.

To me the Catalans look much more committed to their independence than the Scots when compared to the Scottish independence movement. That is lucky to get 10,000 people out in public support, yet with much the same population, Catalonia can get 100,000 out no problem. Maybe it's the better weather? 🙂

It will be interesting to see how this pans out, it's a struggle of a faded imperial feudal power against democracy. Whatever happens, Spain will be irrevocably changed.

Could it be beginning of the Heineken map unfolding in Europe?

FWIW Spain had no choice, the Referendum was illegal, you have to take action against those who called it or you are yourself in breach of your constitutional duties

against democracy

a feeble attempt at independence based on a dubious referendum isn't democracy.

I also think if the Catalans were so dedicated to independence, they'd currently be occupying government buildings.

I think you underestimate the power of peoples jobs and mortgages. I also don't think a head count of people on the streets is much a measure of dedication.

I cannot see hwo they can do it well but the only method is via discussion and a respect for democracy

That brought us Brexit 🙂

this does not mean a blind adherence to the constitution

If the Second Amendment isn't enough, this seems to be a perfectly good example of why written constitutions are a terrible idea. Using democracy and law as a shield against, erm, democracy and law.

I think you underestimate the power of peoples jobs and mortgages. I also don't think a head count of people on the streets is much a measure of dedication.

Especially when there was a similar sized march for the union the following day.

Over the last 40 years Spain has developed many of the characteristics of a democracy. However given the recent violence by police in Catalonia that "democracy" is looking pretty thread bare.

Since when did democracy become a synonym for non-violence?

If non-violence is a prerequisite, democracy doesn't exist.

The real problem the catalon separatists face is there is not a significant majority for it. they raised the stakes and gambled and lost badly.

^^ we don’t know that do we ? Opinion polls are worthless, the seperatists won a majority at the last election.

tjagain - Member
The real problem the catalon separatists face is there is not a significant majority for it. they raised the stakes and gambled and lost badly.

What I thought significant is that a substantial number (but small %) of the voters risked getting their heads beaten in to vote No.

I've been thinking about this, and as far a minority and secession is concerned, there is a democratic deficit there, well it's more than a deficit, there's no real route to it, except at the behest of another. So there is a democratic conundrum happening there.

I wouldn't say denials of votes are anti democratic, just there hasn't really been a particularly valid way to handle them put forward.

I'd suggest if people want the normalization of secession, then much more stringent rules than a one-time 50%+1 vote have to be put in place for it to become common place and an accepted part of the democratic toolbox.

I dunno, something like, if going for independence, you have to be able to prove the resolve of your movement at the ballot box, over time, and that more than a simple majority agree with it. (as tbh, 52% ruling over 48% in an absolutist manner is not democracy either )

Something like, yes, you're allowed to bring this vote to the public every 10 years, but in doing so it means you must meet the criteria 60%+1 in round 1, 2 and 3 the votes, with the 3 rounds spaced over say a 3 to 6 year period.

Thoughts?

For me, I think big decisions should have safeguards built into them, as a society we are in danger of forgetting that that should even be a consideration within democracy. Quite a dangerous thing imo.

Opinion polls are worthless, the seperatists won a majority at the last election.

imo they are obviously trying to create a ridiculous franco-ist link and play on emotions

hmmmm, I was out in Northern Catalunya a fortnight ago, when the two Gordis were arrested. Was having coffveffe is a small market town when a chap on a microphone stated a political speech, was all full of "we're back to the days of politic prisoners, and remember Franco,and we're all in it together brothers and sisters..."

was received warmly by the assorted folk dotted about judging from the long and loud applause

I know one shouldn't place too much emphasis on one speech in one small town, but they didn't seem to have to try too hard to remind folk of how things used to be run.

seosamh77 - Member
I've been thinking about this, and as far a minority and secession is concerned, there is a democratic deficit there, well it's more than a deficit, there's no real route to it, except at the behest of another. So there is a democratic conundrum happening there....

You'd need to have the co-operation of the country you left, so that would need to be a couple of referendums in 2 countries, unless you could negotiate that possibility I don't see how you could make it standard. Every chance of getting told to sling your hook after 5 years.

I know one shouldn't place too much emphasis on one speech in one small town, but they didn't seem to have to try too hard to remind folk of how things used to be run.

I wonder if any of them can point to any modern day parallels? The Franco regime was brutal.

Modern day spanish governments aren't angels no doubt and I'm pretty sure there's plenty of basque and others that will have legitimate human right concerns about the treatment of their political prisoners and the like, but Franco-ist is a more than a bit of a stretch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain)

@seosamh
I think there is a decent case to be made for some kind qualified majority voting on independence referendums but your suggestion seems to high. Secondly there's an argument that referendums should use the same system as the country normally uses why should the burden be higher on people who wish to peacefully and democratically cede from a state.
As for democracy and violence they can co-exist, but surely not when the state authorises the use of violence to prevent it's citizens from peaceful protest or voting.

I'm not saying I agree with it Gordi, I don't. I'm just not surprised at it, so I don't have the sense of outrage some do, as well, I expected it. If you are going to pit yourself against the sovereignty of a country, unlawfully(which is what that vote was), you should expect it. That'll never change.

Regarding 60%, I agree probably does seem high, I could probably be persuaded by arguments to lower it. or maybe have a stepped range, maybe 60/55/50 or the inverse, not sure about that. I just think 51/49 isn't democratic though for such questions, that's just imposition of one will on an extremely similar sized sample.

I think it should be incumbent on separatists to convince people, not impose on people.

I guess the argument against, why not higher, could be that you have to make a deliniation somewhere, why not 65/35, 75/25. I guess the higher the percentage gets, the less valid it becomes to deny that will.

Just thinking out loud, the floor is open on this.

Tempted to email nicola sturgeon to see if I get a reply tbh! 😆

seosamh77 - Member

Since when did democracy become a synonym for non-violence?

It didn't, but when you're using violence to stop people voting...

(yes, the referendum was illegal, but voting in it was not a crime)

epicyclo - Member

To me the Catalans look much more committed to their independence than the Scots when compared to the Scottish independence movement. That is lucky to get 10,000 people out in public support,

It's another asymetric comparison- the scots don't need to be out on the street because we asked for a referendum and westminster said "aye, OK". There's no need for a public mobilization because the political channels work.

No-one got battered for voting, they got battered for obstructing the police as they were trying to confiscate the ballot boxes. That is technically a crime. Could have been a whole lot worse and still legal tbh. (That's where the spanish gov would easily get their provocation/justification from if someone tried to charge the police with assault.)

Again, not saying I agree with it, I'm just looking at it coldly.

I appreciate its ironic that I am referring to the BBC. However the claim that

No-one got battered for voting

The relevant bit is about 40 seconds in

Tbf, it’s not clear from that video they got battered for trying to vote or obstructing police.

Both options are abhorrent, particularly so when the police are obstructing a democratic exercise.

Chanting no pasaran doesn't tally with just going to vote.

I like the no violence attitude of the Catalans which they have maintained despite some clear attempts to provoke it, but it got me to wondering.

Out of all the nations that have achieved independence in the last 250 years, what percentage managed it without violence?

Canada, Australia, New Zealand

You might view that differently if it was your country before Europe landed.

Got to be heavily bias towards some violence I’d have thought. From low level campaigns to all our war.

Why do you ask, looking for a precedent?

obstructing police

Isn't "obstructing police" one of those catch-all things that you get charged with when a cop wants to charge you with something but you aren't actually doing anything wrong? He walks into you and then accuses you of "obstructing" him.

seosamh77 - Member

Chanting no pasaran doesn't tally with just going to vote.

But tallies perfectly with going to vote and finding yourself blocked

1.12s from gordi's video.

But tallies perfectly with going to vote and finding yourself blocked

How does "they shall not pass" tally with that, was it the polis shouting it?

Youse should stop seeing what you want to see.

seosamh77 - Member

How does "they shall not pass" tally with that, was it the polis shouting it?

"all must rise to their feet, to defend the Republic, to defend the people's freedoms as well as their achievements towards democracy!" You can't just translate the words.

DrJ - Member
obstructing police
Isn't "obstructing police" one of those catch-all things that you get charged with when a cop wants to charge you with something but you aren't actually doing anything wrong? He walks into you and then accuses you of "obstructing" him.

Perhaps, but peaceful resistance is still resistance.

Go and rock up to the gates of downing street or some other government building and block the entrance and obstruct the working day with 50 of your mates, peacefully.

Time how long it takes the truncheons to come out and get back to us.

Northwind - Member
How does "they shall not pass" tally with that, was it the polis shouting it?

"all must rise to their feet, to defend the Republic, to defend the people's freedoms as well as their achievements towards democracy!" You can't just translate the words.

I'm not seeing how that supports your case, at all.

seosamh77 - Member

So they were there to block the polis?

I'm not seeing how that supports your case, at all.

OK, I don't know how much you know about the history here, so it's hard to judge a response without risking being patronising. But since you're taking it so literally, it feels like you might just lack the context. And the Spanish do not lack the context- the siege of madrid, one of the final stands of the republic, came right after the capture of catalonia by Franco.

So when you're on your way to vote, in a referendum the government says you can't have, and you discover the police are closing down polling booths and blocking people from voting, no pasaran does not just mean "they will not pass".

I understand the history well enough, I'm well aware of the context of no pasaran. The history has bugger all relevance to this despite how much some people would like it to.

I already asked people to give some examples that show franco-ism and the current spanish government are parallels, or I'll accept even close to being as such, I even gave the example of the white terror for people to have a reference.

Still waiting on those parallels.

Just because some want to make a connection, doesn't mean it exists.

seosamh77 - Member

The history has bugger all relevance to this

Honestly I think that's just absurd, it's like saying ww2 has no relevance to brexit because nobody's running a death camp. The very fact that they're out there chanting "no pasaran" says the history has relevance.

piemonster - Member
...Why do you ask, looking for a precedent?

Not at all. Gandhi got it right that meeting an evil with more evil simply grew the evil threefold. It also leaves a suppurating sore for the next several generations. We just have to look at our own govt's 'achievements' in NI to see that.

I thought that the tendency these days was peaceful, but with vigorous debate.

The Catalans have been met with violence and the people promoting a peaceful means have been driven out of the country, and will be arrested if they return.

So the control exerted by leaders who believed in peaceful means no longer exists, thus it's likely some folk in Catalonia are asking my exact question right now.

Northwind - Member
it's like saying ww2 has no relevance to brexit because nobody's running a death camp.

I'm being absurd? Planet you on? 😆

Not at all. Gandhi got it right that meeting an evil with more evil simply grew the evil threefold. It also leaves a suppurating sore for the next several generations. We just have to look at our own govt's 'achievements' in NI to see that.

I think post WW2 would be a better measure tbh. The world is very very different to 1817.

Probably worth factoring in failed attempts as well.

Timor, Tamils, South Sudan, Chechnya, Indochina, and on and on.

seosamh77 - Member

I'm being absurd? Planet you on?

What part do you disagree with? If I understand you, you say that the history isn't relevant because there aren't parallels between Franco's fascism and the current Spanish government (arguably there are, but that's not important right now). I'm saying that's a nonsequitor- there doesn't need to be a direct parallel between Franco's fascism- or any other part of the long history of Catalonia- for it to still be relevant. Just as there are no parallels between ww2 and the EU, but it's still relevant to many people's position on brexit.

The parallels are important. If they are going throw accusations about they need to be able to back them up.

WW2 may well be relevant to someone's opinion on the EU, all that means is they are completely full of shit. It has no relevance to any sensible EU debate.

Seosamh your stance against the police violence is clear.
That particular group of police is one possible parallel with Franco though. I apologise if this is an unnecessary history lesson. Under the Franco regime Catalans saw the Guardia Civil as Franco's attack dogs. Corruption was rife beatings were frequent people disappeared. After he died the new regime agreed that the Guardia Civil would only have a small role in front line policing in Catalonia, because of the animosity between the Guardia and Catalans. So why did Rajoy choose to send them in ? How did he expect the Catalan Indy supporters to react? Particularly given that Partido Popular was founded by Franco's supporters.

You will see what you want to see. I'm clearly not going to convince you.

Quite aware of the history. So no it's not a lesson, take it as already understood and I still disagree.