[Closed] Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!

Here's that full statement by your man, Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, UN independent advisor. He's just an independent advisor, he doesn't speak for the UN.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295&LangID=E

They are an independent country now.

Somaliland is much further down this road and the UN doesn't recognise them, nor does anyone else.

seosamh77 - Member
...Which of the UN member states has recognised this Catalan state?...

In a democracy sovereignty comes from the people, not from God, a monarch, or another state.

If the Catalan people say they are independent, that is their sovereign right.

What the practicalities of it are is another matter.

So if I declare myself Independent, then a rather small, brand new state has just come into being?

epicyclo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
...Which of the UN member states has recognised this Catalan state?...

You are taking this from a feudal point of view in which your existence is determined by a superior power.
In a democracy sovereignty comes from the people, not from God, a monarch, or another state.

If the Catalan people say they are independent, that is their sovereign right.

What the practicalities of it are is another matter.

So basically, you'd be happy if alex salmond stood on the steps of the scottish parliament, waved a flag, declared independence, then went for a pint? 😆

In a democracy sovereignty comes from the people, not from God, a monarch, or another state.

The practicalities of the existence of that state are a fair bit more important for me. The declaration and jubilation part are pretty much irrelevant.

@imnotverygood Yes. What currency will you use?
How will you pay for your pension? How will you trade with your neighbouring countries? Will you or will you not apply for EU membership?
Are you aware that the sky will fall on your head if you do proclaim independence?

If the Catalan people say they are independent, that is their sovereign right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_to_Pimlico

seosamh77 - Member
...The practicalities of the existence of that state are a fair bit more important for me. The declaration and jubilation part are pretty much irrelevant...

gordimhor - Member
@imnotverygood Yes. What currency will you use?
How will you pay for your pension? How will you trade with your neighbouring countries? Will you or will you not apply for EU membership?
Are you aware that the sky will fall on your head if you do proclaim independence?

Valid points, but that is Catalonia's problem to work out.

@imnotverygood Yes. What currency will you use?
How will you pay for your pension? How will you trade with your neighbouring countries? Will you or will you not apply for EU membership?
Are you aware that the sky will fall on your head if you do proclaim independence?

I shall declare war on a neighbouring state to take the population’s mind off the practical problems.

Will you bring back National Service then?

You may have to conscript yourself or you could refuse to serve and then lock yourself up for treason.

The history is fascinating but what's happening today is fundamentally a conflict between democracy and law, with people deciding which side of that conflict is more important.

Fairly few of the great moments of democracy were legal- Rosa Parks was breaking the law, the chartists were breaking the law, practically all of the spring of nations was illegal. Most of the things we take for granted were taken for us by lawbreakers.

The law can be an ass, or a weapon, or a jackboot and sometimes it can be changed through legal channels but other times it should be ignored or overthrown. And as long as you take a line "the law is absolute, too bad for you" you make ignoring it or overthrowing it a reasonable action.

Comparisons with Scotland are really only interesting inasmuch as they show exactly how you prevent illegal or unreasonable actions from a seccesionist movement. Not with rubber bullets but with laws that work for the people.

Fairly few of the great moments of democracy were legal

Mandela and Gandhi both spent time in jail. The Tienanmen square protest was made illegal when the Chinese government declared martial law. Spain hasn't reached that point yet but arguments based on respect for the law have limited legitimacy particularly when the law enforcement officers show little respect for the law themselves.

imnotverygood - Member
I shall declare war on a neighbouring state to take the population’s mind off the practical problems.

For some practical tips, there's a 1959 film "The Mouse that Roared". Starring Peter Sellers, so probably still funny. 🙂

Some of these comparisons are daft. The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay. Hardly honourable. Certainly not a freedom movement in the Rosa Parks sense.

I agree csb. Pretty ridiculous tbh.

If independence is as easy a getting a few people together to vote. Well carry on, but you are looking at a walled Europe in 50 years time. That'll be fun.

I'm quite up for supporting oppressed minorities, this is something altogether different. Imo. Manipulated nationalism.

Agree csb this is the wealthy part of spain showing two fingers to the rest of their fellow countrymen, no sympathy from me.

Imagine westminster refusing to fund any other part of the UK.

csb - Member
Some of these comparisons are daft. The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay. Hardly honourable. Certainly not a freedom movement in the Rosa Parks sense.

The other side of your statement, is it honourable for Spain to seek to retain Catalonia so it can suck it dry?

Catalonia has a history of trying to regain its independence. This is not something that has just cropped up.

The other side of your statement, is it honourable for Spain to seek to retain Catalonia so it can suck it dry?

Are the Catalans the poorest people in Spain?

piemonster - Member
Are the Catalans the poorest people in Spain?

In any case, it's irrelevant to their decision to be independent.

it's irrelevant

Not to your loaded and biased response it isn’t.

their decision to be independent.

Which is a decision yet to be genuinely taken, albeit by unacceptable means from Madrid. Unless your up for a minority of the electorate taking decisions for all. Remind of your thoughts on the Westminster electoral system?

Catalonia is the richest region in Spain. Which makes it understandable for the remainder of the nation to want to retain them. Suck them dry? They're doing pretty well regardless of their contribution to the rest of the nation.

Epicyclo, you ask if Spain's efforts to retain Catalonia are honourable. If we accept that by Spain, we mean the government on behalf of the residual population then yes, it's honourable for them to champion their interests in keeping the wealthiest of their fellow citizens paying into the communal pot. Tax the rich to benefit the poor.

csb - Member

The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay.

What do you base that on? Is it this?

csb - Member

Catalonia is the richest region in Spain

Because it's only true if you ignore population. GRP per capita is the sensible metric and it places Catalonia 4th, after the Basque country, Madrid and Navarre. The only thing that makes Catalonia "richer" is their relatively high population, not their wealth or incomes.

I assume you have detailed info on what drives the independence movement, and it clearly shows that the main motivator is for the rich to get richer?

I assume you have detailed info on what drives the independence movement, and it clearly shows that the main motivator is for the rich to get richer?

I’d actually appreciate it if you shared a few insightful links please?

csb - Member
Epicyclo, you ask if Spain's efforts to retain Catalonia are honourable...

You raised the question in the first place.

It is irrelevant to whether or not the Catalonian people are entitled to self-determination.

piemonster - Member
'it's irrelevant'
Not to your loaded and biased response it isn’t.

Which bit offends your biases?

Your bias offends my bias, which in turn offends my own bias thus creating a perpetual energy source of offence.

If only I knew how to harness it I could live off grid free from energy bills.

Some of these comparisons are daft. The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay. Hardly honourable. Certainly not a freedom movement in the Rosa Parks sense.

This - should London secede from the UK?

Northwind misses the point, Catalonians may not be as rich as they think they are - but one of the main drivers was the feeling that they were propping up the rest of the country.

As CSB said, hardly honourable.

Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer,

BTW I should clarify that I don't actually agree with this. As tbh UDI is not a vote for Catalans to get richer it's a vote for Catalans to get poorer and more isolated. The numbers don't particularly stack up that Catalonia is so much richer that the other regions, it's a wee bit more than some, but it's hardly London levels...

My disagreement largely come from the idea that i don't think there is an acceptable majority, and if they do achieve a slim majority, I think that that would have been achieved by fairly dubious manipulated nationalist means and could well change again in short order.

I accuse people of viewing this through a Scottish prism, I'm absolutely doing the same thing, I don't think a Scottish 50%+1 is valid enough either. I think the Scottish government should govern and come back to the question when they think they can achieve a 65/70% vote, based on their record in government. Not how people emotionally react to a flag being waved.

I honestly don't believe these questions should be decided on simple, precarious, majorities.

I believe that normalising 50%+1, based on the idea that anyone can form a group and break away is an incredibly dangerous precedent to make. It's a recipe for more borders, not less, Something I'm absolute against (more borders). (Yes I do get that there's a bit of hypocrisy there in supporting Scottish independence, but I believe SI is outward looking eough in that respect, it's not particular SI or CI where I have these criticisms, just were I can see the normalisation of acceptance of 50%+1 going if it's widely accepted..)

I do agree that equating Catalan or Scottish nationalism to Rosa Parks is utterly ridiculous though, and is a perfect example of nonsensical emotional manipulation.

piemonster - Member

I’d actually appreciate it if you shared a few insightful links please?

Tell you what, let's see if CSB can provide anything to back up his suggestion- I haven't made any claims, I'm saying his is bobbins.

The modern catalan independence movement dates back to Franco, and the current escalation can fairly be said to have started in 2010 when Spain overturned parts of the Statute of Autonomy For Catalonia- which had been passed in law, by referendum, and by the national government.

seosamh77 - Member

I do agree that equating Catalan or Scottish nationalism to Rosa Parks is utterly ridiculous though, and is a perfect example of nonsensical emotional manipulation.

It would be ridiculous- I didn't do any of that though. Hmm, if doing it would be nonsensical emotional manipulation, what would it be if someone pretends it's been done?

The Chinese have got the right idea when it comes to secessionist movements - round up the leaders and put them in front of firing squads.

What next, counties as sovereign states? Rural militia? Free movement within your own country curtailed because the Welsh hate the English? Because Yorkshiremen hate southerners?

The end result of local secessionist movements will be less global social mobility and more inequality.

Catalonians may not be as rich as they think they are - but one of the main drivers was the feeling that they were propping up the rest of the country

Have they been whining on about their oil too? 😉

Thought Anthony Beevor was good on Marr this morning and hope he is correct. Must download his book as I am very ignorant on Spanish history.

Amazing tines - to have several cases of major constitutional and democratic issues where opinions are so polarised and yet balanced at the same time. Brexit, Catalonia, US...,.and some other minor ones too

It would be ridiculous- I didn't do any of that though. Hmm, if doing it would be nonsensical emotional manipulation, what would it be if someone pretends it's been done?

What's the relevance of bringing her up or Emily Pankhurst, or Mandela?

Those things all have legitimate oppression as their motivation, this doesn't.

The relevance should be clear from my post- democracy and the law have often been in conflict, and without the willingness to break laws that constrain democracy, sometimes it's impossible to progress. None of that means equating them as causes, but the dilemma is the same.

And when it comes right down to it, it's not really about legality at all; laws can be changed, but they won't be because Spain controls the laws and Spain won't allow it. So it's about power.

Fair enough, still don't really get the relevance of the given examples though, i don't think the dilemma is the same, the given examples have cause for unlawful resistance.

Nationalism based on not much else beyond nationalism isn't valid cause for unlawful action to my mind.

The point of referring to Parkes, Pankhurst etc is to show that it is possible for laws to be wrong.
The UN gives all peoples the right of self determination. Catalans have been prevented from exercising that right by the Spanish government. The Catalan government has (according to my pro Indy Catalan friends) approached the Spanish government for talks 15 times and had no response. Iagree the illegal ref didnt show a clear majority for independence, but What else were they to do given that all legal avenues seem to be closed to them.

As I've mentioned before, who believed in 2001 the British government would allow a Scottish referendum?

None of the 193 UN states has recognised this declaration of independence, so no, the UN doesn't give all people the right to self determination.

seosamh77 - Member

Nationalism based on not much else beyond nationalism isn't valid cause for unlawful action to my mind.

Where do you draw that line? Exactly how much oppression is required before you can act? Kinder Scout? Why is "nationalism" different from "exercising your democratic will"? It seems like 2 different names for the same thing, one positive and one negative.

seosamh77 - Member

As I've mentioned before, who believed in 2001 the British government would allow a Scottish referendum?

Essentially everyone, considering we'd previously had 2 referendums on devolution and the Scottish Executive had just been funded, partly as an attempt to sate the desire for Scottish home rule.

Where do you draw that line? Exactly how much oppression is required before you can act? Kinder Scout? Why is "nationalism" different from "exercising your democratic will"? It seems like 2 different names for the same thing, one positive and one negative.

Some oppression would be good for starters. Not getting your way when you spit the dummy isn't oppression. You work within existing power structures until you can change it. The democratic structure exists and is entirely valid, you need to work with in that if you want to change it.

In lieu of legitimate reasons to go out side the law you work within it. Nationalism really isn't that important.

Essentially everyone, considering we'd previously had 2 referendums on devolution and the Scottish Executive had just been funded, partly as an attempt to sate the desire for Scottish home rule.

Nonsense.

But lets go back further, who thought Scotland would get a referendum in 1977?

seosamh77 - Member

Nonsense.

Oh go on, back that up. That's as convincing a statement as the earlier "Catalonians want independence to make rich people richer"

PS,

oppression
??pr??(?)n/
noun
noun: oppression; plural noun: oppressions

prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority.

Clearly the Catalonian indepence movement would say they're subject to a prolonged, unjust exercise of authority.

Northwind, you asked for evidence of my assertion that economic gain is the primary motivation behind the Catalan independence movement. I based this view on uk media so I spent the last hour reading various articles and papers on the issue and I didn't need to dig at all for reams of comment from within the movement on the unfairness of taxation etc. I accept that nationalism for its own sake appears to be an equally prominent motivator.

And to pick up on your 'gdp is a fairer measure of wealth' comment, maybe so, but the Catalans would be leaving as a region so the absolute wealth of the region is a fairer measure of the loss it would cause to Spain.

csb - Member

Northwind, you asked for evidence of my assertion that economic gain is the primary motivation behind the Catalan independence movement. I based this view on uk media so I spent the last hour reading various articles and papers on the issue and I didn't need to dig at all for reams of comment from within the movement on the unfairness of taxation etc.

I see. And did you find any evidence of your assertion that making rich people richer is the primary motivation?

Oh go on, back that up.

You had about 25% support for independence in 2001, not even everyone of them would have though you'd had been allowed a vote. For the other 75% thoughts of independence weren't even on the radar.

Care to back up, "everyone"?

That's as convincing a statement as the earlier "Catalonians want independence to make rich people richer"

Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer,

BTW I should clarify that I don't actually agree with this.

I'm quoting from the UN

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.