[i]There are calls for Bavaria to once again be an independent state.
South Tyrol has always had an uneasy relationship with Rome.
Like Catalunya, both of these regions provide the bill of tax revenue to the state, essentially propping up the poorer areas. [/i]
Yeah - those pesky "poor parts of the country" are a real pain . . .
🙂
cchris2lou - Member
1000 businesses have already moved their hq away from Barcelona .
So what?
If there's money to be made, the gaps will be filled.
Not really. Being out of the EU would be devastating. Barcelone is one of biggest port in the EU.
As per my comments on the FB thread, its the Russians again.
Experts say the Kremlin has perfected not promoting a single candidate but instead finding divisive social issues including race, gun control, religion or gay rights to amplify. Eastern European, or Russian, troll farms and robotic accounts then use algorithms to make “emotional hot-button topics” trend across a country’s Internet space.
http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/2/russian-interference-seen-catalonia-crisis/
The Americans are really bursting for their commie enemies back! 😆
why is the comparison here that catalunya = scotland
surely its a bit more like the south east finally deciding to ditch the pathetic weak regions of the uk, the only difference being london is the capital, whereas madrid is like manchester with an illusion of control
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@Piemonster They are well aware of what lies in front of them. Nevertheless the declaration of independence is a significant milestone in what has for some of them been a decade long campaign. So yes a short celebration is in order before the put their livelihood and possibly more on the line.
Doublepost
A lot seems to be made of how Catalonia is oppressed, can someone explain the basis of that?
epicyclo, what's the point you are making there, that the Catalans should go to war over this?
What are the parallels between colonial British rule and Catalonia as part of a democratic Spain state?
Well despite there being a clear mandate for a legal referendum one has never been granted. Oppression doesn't need to be violent.A lot seems to be made of how Catalonia is oppressed, can someone explain the basis of that?
Is that the entire basis? bit weak, no?
I wouldn't say that Catalonia has been terribly oppressed, but Spain did deploy the police to forcibly prevent people from voting. That's indefensible in my opinion.
Secondly the support for independence seems to have grown from a decision by Spanish courts to rewrite large parts of the Catalan constitution which was adopted by referendum in 2006.
[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia ]Statute of autonomy[/url]
You don't think going against the democratic will of the people is oppressive enough?Is that the entire basis? bit weak, no?
Km79 makes a good point.
There's also Rajoys repeated refusal to engage in any negotiations despite 15 offers from the Catalan government.
That's indefensible in my opinion.
Perhaps, but legally sound tbh.
Secondly the support for independence seems to have grown from a decision by Spanish courts to rewrite large parts of the Catalan constitution which was adopted by referendum in 2006.
This referendum was noted for its voter turnout being below 50%
They do seem to have a problem mobilising the majority of the people.
btw, I'm aware I sound like I'm against catalan independence, I'm not at all, this just seems fairly weak to me, and it's all quite clearly illegal. So I don't agree with it on that basis, not the prospect of catalan independence.
Similarly, I don't support illegal means to achieve scottish indepedence. We aren't colonised states, unilateral declarations and claptrap about oppression are extremely manipulative and fairly transparent populism.
km79 - Member
Is that the entire basis? bit weak, no?
You don't think going against the democratic will of the people is oppressive enough?
I think they need to get over the hurdle of the Spanish constitution that they sign up for firstly.
They are currently ignoring that entirely, which is what makes their actions illegal.
Maybe you should phone them up then and give them some pointers! As far as I can tell, any attempts to do so legally have failled as the other side won't engage.I think they need to get over the hurdle of the Spanish constitution that they sign up for firstly.
That's democracy init. in 2001 no-one was believing the brits would allow a scottish referendum. Just need to keep chipping away.
Many can't see how the scots will be allowed another referendum, but they will, eventually.
Will the French Catalans get uppity as well?
This referendum was noted for its voter turnout being below 50%
They do seem to have a problem mobilising the majority of the people.
Yeah - having the police handing out beatings can have that effect.
Yeah - having the police handing out beatings can have that effect.
It's pretty naive to think that sedition won't illicit a violent response from the authorities.
It's pretty naive to think that a violent response from the authorities won't affect voter turnout.
It's pretty naive to think that an illegal referendum won't affect voter turnout.
How dare folk break the law in order to get to vote.
I agree it's a silly route to democracy, particularly when the veracity of the vote can't really be verified either.
What would you suggest then?
Keep chipping away and continue to build a convincing majority, without the oppression claptrp. Western european nations won't be able to withstand that for long.
Their majority isn't convincing at the moment.
They'll also need to figure out someway to force constitutional change(Rajoy isn't the man to do that obviously, but he won't be in charge forever.)
Also, nationalism in a western European context isn't worth going outside the law over.
Will the French Catalans get uppity as well?
Don't think so I have friends there. They're proud of their Catalan identity and think of themselves as Catalan. There is support for the language and demand for Catalan medium education, but not for independence from France.
Keep chipping away and continue to build a convincing majority, without the oppression claptrp
Here in País Vasco the EAJ (Basque Nationalist Party) have done exactly that. Chipping away more and more autonomy from the spanish state whilst retaining a 'respectable' conservative stance. There's little appetite these days for independence as a result - a lot of young people here just want a Basque internacional football team!
This all Seems to be conveniently shifting focus away from addressing rather important issues of corruption in the government...
If the proposed elections in Catalonia go ahead at all it will be interesting to see what form they take.
1 Will pro independence parties be allowed to participate ?
2 If they are allowed to take part will they do so or will they boycott it?
3 If there is a boycott resulting in a turn out similar to the referendum on the 1st of October will Madrid consider the result valid while pro Indy parties claim the result is invalid.
4 How will Madrid ensure that there is no intimidation of pro independence voters given the conduct of the Guardia Civil and the National Police in the last few weeks?
1 & 2, good questions I'd imagine, can't see them not allowing representation though? No idea mind you? Saying that, Pudgemont and others, must be looking at charges(perhaps the point of this btw, seems to want to martyr himself)?
3 & 4, a boycott doesn't really work when the election is legal, the polis won't really need to be there apart from usual numbers, they aren't trying to stop it.
The Spanish Consitution was written shortly after the end of a repressive right wing dictatorship which had itself come to power through a bloody and divisive civil war. A majority of the Catalans and Basques supported the (losing) left wing side in the civil war, and Franco punished them for it, including suppressing their languages and cultures.
It's not suprising that after the death of Franco, and given the uncertainty surrounding the future and the risk of another civil war or right wing coup by the military like [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23-F ]this one[/url] or [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Spanish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt ]this one[/url], that a majority voted for the new constitution to commit Spain to being a democracy and to bind the country together.
However, with the passage of time the situation changes. In the aftermath of dictatorships there is often an amnesty for the criminal actions of those who were in power (or a tacit acceptance by many people not to prosecute them), in order not to threaten a fragile democracy, but later when the democracy and its insitutions are stronger those criminals are often finally arrested and prosecuted, e.g. Serbia, Chile and Argentina.
In the same way, it's not surprising that a significant percentage of Catalonians now feel the time is right to assert a desire for independence, or at least a referendum on the issue. If their political representatives win a majority in their regional parliament, it is undemocratic for the central government to use the constitution as a trump card to permanently block that, and effectively insist that the constitution means that everything is set in stone for time immemorial and can never be revisited. That itself is just another dictatorship; only this time it's the democratic form: a dictatorship of the minority by the majority.
Moreover, Rajoy and his right wing government, which has been mired in a major corruption scandal and which is the inheritor of the support that did exist in Spain for Franco, are probably the worst people to have in power in this situation. The issue has given them an opportunity to exploit the situation for narrow party and individual political gain, since they can use it to drum up support from the majority of Spanish who do not want the country split.
Point about q4 is the Guardi/National Police are there and there's no sign of them being ordered to leave. I hope I am wrong but I'll be very surprised if they leave before any election . Their presence itself could be intimidating.
As is crowds of Catalan nationalists and Spanish nationalists on the streets to both sides. Just a consequence of stoking nationalist tendencies.
The polis just being there isn't validation of intimidation, some would be there regardless. If there's an over bearing presence at polling stations and direct or indirect interference fair do's, don't see it though. I doubt they'll be given instruction to coerce voters.
your first 2 points are the more interesting ones.
It's not only the Catalan nationalists who object to the Guardia Civil being there but many Catalans who do not support independence as well. The Guardia have since 1978 taken a lower profile roll in Catalonia due to their strong association with Franco.
I know, I don't really need history lessons. They are there as a direct result of current actions though.
I'm pretty sure the catalan leaders are perfectly happy to have associations with the memories of franco, so I doubt too many of them will be privately wishing them away..
Here endeth the history lesson.Agree that both sides are playing to their own gallery to some extent.
Will the French Catalans get uppity as well?
Not from what I hear, the Corsicans however ....
seosamh77 - Member
epicyclo, what's the point you are making there, that the Catalans should go to war over this?
The point is that independence rarely comes as a gift. You often have to take it.
how should they take it?
seems pugdemont will be able to take part in the elections.
seosamh77 - Member
how should they take it?
They have. They are an independent country now. The question is can they hold it.
What happens now is up to Spain which is now a foreign potential aggressor.
Here's what the UN had to say about this issue:
[i]“...The right of self-determination is a right of peoples and not a prerogative of States to grant or deny. In case of a conflict between the principle of territorial integrity and the human right to self-determination, it is the latter that prevails...."[/i]
They have.
no they haven't.
You can keep posting stuff like that, it doesn't make your point relevant in the slightest.
Which of the UN member states has recognised this Catalan state?
None.
Reality trumps hyperbole, everytime.
