Been out on the bike this afternoon around home in S Cataluña, roads were very quiet, but they always are. I called by my local village and had a chat with one of my local councillors who happens to be British. The village square was full of people, about 200, who were guarding the entrance to the Civic Centre as the 2 Mossos who were there had orders to seize to ballot boxes if they could get in unobstructed. The funny thing was that the ballot boxes on display inside were dummies, the actual vote had taken place in the Town Hall about 500m away and the boxes were long gone. I think the Guarda Civil violence will backfire very badly in Madrid, it has definitely galvanised the Si campagn and the next couple of days will be very tense. Independance will be declared within 48 hours and there's talk of Spain being suspended from the EU over this.
I expect there's some informal contact between ETA and the Catalan Separatists this evening. Something along the lines of how do car bombs work then? The Spanish government has managed to shoot both their feet by their actions today.
How is it an illegal referendum as the Spanish PM suggests? If I set up a load of votes in village halls to get people to vote on "Is duck better then chicken"? is that illegal? I don't understand why they would choose to stop the voting when they could simply ignore the outcome. As it stands they are going to find it harder to ignore the fallout from their own actions.
Hope I'm not wrong but Catalans don't do violence, I think the peaceful approach today won the argument hands down. It made the Guarda Civil look like bloodthirsty monsters and Rahoy look like a fool.
Don't know if it has made the coverage in the rest of Spain or Europe but footage of a young Mossos lad breaking down in tears and being hugged by a protester has been all over our news tonight.
The UK Foreign Office has certainly taken a tough stance of condemning the violence...
“The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld.”
I guess the Tories know they might need to deploy the same tactics here before long.
Presumably an Indepent Catalunya would not automatically remain a member of the EU?
How is it an illegal referendum as the Spanish PM suggests?
Because the constitution (rightly or wrongly) doesn't allow for regions to unilaterally declare independence from Spain. That would (handily?) require altering the constitution, and that obviously requires support from the rest of the country.
Hope I'm not wrong but Catalans don't do violence, I think the peaceful approach today won the argument hands down. It made the Guarda Civil look like bloodthirsty monsters and Rahoy look like a fool.
I think that is very much the case - watching riot police batter down people who are not offering any violence of any sort is amazingly powerful and painful to watch.
Obviously the best way to get the message across that they're not an occupied oppressed people is to send a paramilitary police force in to beat the shit out of them
I don't understand why they would choose to stop the voting when they could simply ignore the outcome.
The government is afraid the vote would conclusively demonstrate the Catalans desire for independence....that would be uncomfortable for the Spanish and would likely lead to Madrid having to concede powers to the region and allow further autonomy to avoid Catalonia breaking away...
...they can't let that happen so they're preventing the vote entirely...
...they've gone about it in a staggeringly clumsy fashion however, public opinion is now with the Catalans.
Legitimacy again:
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Video here, I can't get it to link
Really have no words for this. Have you ever seen police more totally aware that they're doing the wrong thing?
csb - MemberAs it involves the dissolution of a partnership, I do think the whole partnership should have a say. So yes to eu votes on brexit, Uk wide votes on Scotland etc.
Next time I get dumped I will suggest that all partners should have an equal say and that we can't break up til everyone agrees.
We live exactly half way between 2 villages, both have declared their results.
El Perello: Si 1201 No 20 70% turnout
Rasquera: Si 469 No 10 80,13% turnout
Pretty overwhelming
Just off to Barcelona to collect Mrs PB from the airport, wish me luck.
The difference between Catalonia and Scottish Indy Ref is thst the UK government approved the referendum. ThenCatalans have pressed ahead alone as it where.
The responce of the Spanish Government is in many ways extra-ordinary. I cannot see this ending well. The violence today has been broadcast around the world, that’s only bad for the Spanish Government.
It's always like that in villages Piston broke. The one I work in voted over 99% Bildu (Basque separatist party) as did most others, but in Bilbao, Donostia and Vitoria the picture was different.
Whipping up fear of separatist terrorist groups helped Aznar win mandates so maybe Rajoy is banking on the same. His approval rating is nonexistent.
I suppose you'd wonder how the UK gov would respond if Sturgeon held an indy vote, without having 'permission' from Westminster, you can't imagine them sending in the heavy squad, but although different circumstances those pics remind you that situations can easily spiral out of control and have done in the UK....
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Either way the Spanish gov have handled this terribly, a PR disaster at home and abroad and made secession seem inevitable now?
The Spanish government really do need to sort it the fk out, it's no Bloody Sunday but it will leave a lasting legacy, the way that day was the best recruitment tool the IRA ever had, this will cause more trouble
Northwind, I think your confusing a non-binding relationship with a legal partnering (girlfriend vs Partner if you like). You'd definitely have a say on the terms of any split in the latter, even if it was just keeping the house whilst they got the cat.
The U.K. gov aren't adverse to sending in the heavy squad when they want to, and the heavy squad aren't adverse to earning a bit of overtime for doing it. I had a friend who paid off his mortgage early thanks to one strike or another 😉
kimbers - Member
I suppose you'd wonder how the UK gov would respond if Sturgeon held an indy vote, without having 'permission' from Westminster, you can't imagine them sending in the heavy squad, but although different circumstances those pics remind you that situations can easily spiral out of control and have done in the UK....
Maybe not for an un-approved vote, considering the obvious thing to do is just ignore it. But if the Scottish government declared UDI, you can bet your arse there'd be troops on the ground and the ring leaders rounded up and there would no doubt be some sort of clashes/riots, which to be could lead anywhere. Why anyone calling for UDI is aff their nut.
csb - Member
Northwind, I think your confusing a non-binding relationship with a legal partnering (girlfriend vs Partner if you like). You'd definitely have a say on the terms of any split in the latter, even if it was just keeping the house whilst they got the cat.
You do know that your argument is completely invalidated by the fact that Scotland has already had 3 refs in relation to it's self rule.
Scotland's right to have a say is well enshrined in precedent. You can't bullshit that away, it will have another say when it's ready.
ffs the tories nearly committed suicide to stop another vote just a few months ago.
UDI Scotland would be as economically succesful as Zimbabwe is under Mugabe
Because the constitution (rightly or wrongly) doesn't allow for regions to unilaterally declare independence from Spain
That doesn't make it illegal. just irrelevant. Why didn't the government just let them get on with it and ignore the result? They are now on the back foot.
slowoldman - Member
Because the constitution (rightly or wrongly) doesn't allow for regions to unilaterally declare independence from SpainThat doesn't make it illegal. just irrelevant. Why didn't the government just let them get on with it and ignore the result? They are now on the back foot.
Thinking about that, the catalans apparently did say they could declare UDI within 48 hours if the vote was considered sufficient. So you wonder if sending in the heavies now was possibly the lesser of 2 evils?
Dunno, just playing devils advocate there.
Both sides are playing games, anyhow...
jambalaya - Member
UDI Scotland would be as economically succesful as Zimbabwe is under Mugabe
We probably agree there jamba! I believe this may be cause for celebration? 😆
Spanish govt have obviously calculated that reducing confidence in the poll result outweighs the negative PR. If it had gone ahead unimpeded and the result was a landslide yes with a high turnout they wouldn't be able to prevent a subsequent official referendum. Trouble is the Catalans are pretty radical and rebellious with a long history of resistance so I can't see them letting up. I wonder if they'd be as keen on leaving if Podemos were in power?
Why anyone calling for UDI is aff their nut.
Yep I agree.
And then Jamba posts and makes me think there just might be a case for UDI 😆
It occurs to me we see here the issue with borders. Where there are borders, someone will seek to change them.
😆
The right to independence has been won according to the Catalan leader.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719
The economics argument is totally irrelevant. Republic of Ireland tracked worse than rUK from independence up to the 1990s. Do you think the Irish gave a shit? Of course not. Neither when they were behind us nor now that they're ahead of us.
[quote=seosamh77 ]Thinking about that, the catalans apparently did say they could declare UDI within 48 hours if the vote was considered sufficient. So you wonder if sending in the heavies now was possibly the lesser of 2 evils?
Except I don't think they've stopped the voting sufficiently to make the vote illegitimate - they'd have needed to go in a lot heavier for that! And whilst they might have said "could", sending in the heavies has made it far more likely that they will. Sure maybe there were things the Spanish government could have done to head this off, but what they have done appears to make a UDI more likely, not less.
As for Scotland, whilst I'm strongly against the ending of the union, I'd certainly not support similar action there if they happened to call a non-approved referendum. I don't suppose most British people would. I wonder how many Spanish people support the action in Catalonia (I'll ask my Spanish friend next time I see her).
aracer - Member
what they have done appears to make a UDI more likely, not less.
absolutely, reading that bbc link just above points to it too, things are gonny get interesting over the next few days by the sound of it. Guess the result and turnout are key there.
Don't fancy puigdemont's chance of the EU or individual euopean governments supporting them mind.
Also find it surprising that people are arguing for super-majorities and quibbling about nuances of history, both of which is bullshit. All that matters is what the democratic majority prefers now.
For example Good Friday Agreement. Simple majority prevails, and the fact that NI has been de facto British for c. 300 years is neither here nor there. That agreement seems to have pretty much universal support?
If you are going to go with a simple majority in these type of votes, they should be held multiple times to validate a result. Why do you think the brexiteers are shit scared of another ref? Cause they know it'll lose. How the hell is being beholden to a result forever more democracy, particular if it's fairly obvious people have changed their mind...
Maybe that is a good tactic for the Spanish government..
Had we won, this would have been binding, but as we lost... err... best out of 3 ??
The clue is in the question. Nothing is forever.
Oh well, remember me saying how the police who were facing the firemen knew they were doing the wrong thing? Well they ended up getting replaced with police who probably still know they're doing the wrong thing but quite enjoy it.
[url= https://i.imgur.com/NiJhNca.mp4 ]https://i.imgur.com/NiJhNca.mp4[/url]
csb - MemberNorthwind, I think your confusing a non-binding relationship with a legal partnering (girlfriend vs Partner if you like)
Really no. In neither of those situations does one person get to say "you don't get to leave".
You are winning at Likely To Be An Abusive Partner Top Trumps though.
Edit. actually, you're weird so I'm not bothered what you're on about.
Was it this video Northwind?
That's a very interesting video - what exactly is happening there? The Catalan police have been told to stop the voting and they don't want to do it?
Aracer I believe that the mossos (Catalan police) were ordered to evict protesters and close down polling stations on Saturday night-Sunday morning prior to polls opening. They weren't prepared to do so.
At that particular village The Independent reported that the mossos were protecting protesters though I see no threat in the video. There is clearly no tension between police and the voters (edit)
Hmm, reports of 90% in favour of independence, but only 42.3% turnout. Is that because Spain successfully stopped people voting, voter apathy, or because no voters did refuse to vote? In any case it's hard to suggest a genuine mandate on that turnout, even given the overwhelming result from those who did vote (IMHO votes for significant constitutional change should require at least a majority of the electorate in favour).
[quote=gordimhor ]At that particular village The Independent reported that the mossos were protecting protesters though I see no threat in the video
That doesn't appear to be accurate - they don't look like they want to be there.
Deary me they have chucked napalm on that little bonfire 😆
It appears that the Mossos were given the job of trying to prevent the vote in the multitude of small villages whereas the Guarda Civil have targetted the larger population centres. This would account for the seemingly random outbreaks of violence between the Guarda and protestors and the low turnout as people were intimidated. This isn't going away anytime soon,
Hmm, reports of 90% in favour of independence, but only 42.3% turnout
If I wanted to remain part of Spain I'd probably avoid the polling stations so I didn't get my face rearranged by the police. If I was Catalan and desperate for independence I might take the risk in order to cast my vote.
