Indeed - that seems a logical explanation, in which case the Spanish government have successfully delegitimised the vote.
They've legitimized the call for a proper unimpeded vote though.
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Police have chartered 2 cruise ships to accommodate their officers in Barcelona as no hotels would have them. 😀
You couldn't make up the idea of police squads, back from an afternoon of brutal repression, bedding down next to Tweetie Pie and Wile E Coyote.
eku - Member
Police have chartered 2 cruise ships to accommodate their officers in Barcelona as no hotels would have them.
4 by the looks of it and they've been there a while. They'll double up as good prison ships too should the need arise I'd imagine.
in which case the Spanish government have successfully delegitimised the vote.
I am not sure at what cost though.
Sending in the thugs to beat people up deligitimised the central government a tad as well.
Dunno, why the OP said give barca a miss this week, looks like it'd be interesting as hell to be there this week! 😆
Actually my parents came from BCN yesterday and outside certain hotspots it was business as usual. Still a relief, had fairly little worry about physical safety but more about travel issues with strikes and possible flight delays.
Just had the King of Spain on telly appealing for unity and calm.
Aye was just watching that, dunno if the king is the best placed person to send a message to the people that want to set up a Catalan republic! 😆
I think one thing's clear, spain is going to cling on to it's constitution, it'll not let it go without a fight, most likely occupation and peaceful resistance by the catalans, as i don't think the catalans are geared up for a fight, nor do they have the inclination, hope I'm right there anyhow. How that would end, dunno. Guess the ball is in the separatists court, go for it and declare UDI or let this fizzle out seem their only options.
I think the spanish government would settle for a spain wide referendum, and is where they seem to want to guide it(was an interview last night on the bbc with some spanish minster that said just as much)
They are showing lots of Pro Spain marches now. There seem to be plenty of people who don't want an independent Catalunya.
spekkie - Member
They are showing lots of Pro Spain marches now. There seem to be plenty of people who don't want an independent Catalunya.
There is.
The result gave the catalans 38% of the total electorate. Which in a real ref would probably result something like 50:50 +/- %5 either way. would be my guess anyhow.
Puigdemont saying they are going ahead with declaring independence in a few days.
It's always useful to have a lesson in democracy from an unelected monarch
Especially one whose father, in the midst of the financial crisis went elephant hunting!
the royal family have a pretty good rep in spain. that said the way no-one at the national level seems to be acknowledging that lots of people got their heads kicked in, legal/illegal referendum aside, this weekend seems ill judged.
"Official" figured from Spanish Govt sources say only 4 injuries during the police attacks.
the royal family have a pretty good rep in spain. that said the way no-one at the national level seems to be acknowledging that lots of people got their heads kicked in, legal/illegal referendum aside, this weekend seems ill judged.
mmmm really? Elephant hunting, mistresses, Swiss bank accounts, dodgy front companies. Large parts of Spain were Republics fairly recently and remember who brought them back.
I saw more than that in 1 clip on tv on Sunday afternoon. Old woman with blood streaming down her face, man assaulted whilst trying to administer cpr to a guy lying on the pavement, woman thrown down stairs, dragged out of a building by her hair. The Guarda Civil were acting like animals against people who were totally unarmed and defenceless.
This is getting serious, the strike today was 100% observed locally. I can see Madrid trying to take over governing and impose direct rule.
I think the king was only appealing to preserve the unity of Spain. No mention of any dialogue between Madrid and Catalonia. No mention of the brutality meted out by his governments police force.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/03/king-felipe-catalan-authorities-have-scorned-all-spaniards-with-referendum ]just one of many reports saying similar things[/url]
seosamh77 - MemberI think the spanish government would settle for a spain wide referendum
That'd be very magnanimous of them
the royal family have a pretty good rep in spain.
They did have, then Juan Carlos messed up the end of his reign and had to abdicate. Felipe's respected, and his wife's doing a reasonable job of being glamorous and not making a mess of things. But there's no real love there, while there was definitely affection for Juanca at least for the first 25 years or so.
The strike was 100% observed locally
No it wasn't. Plenty of busses, reduced train service, and a few taxis running.
Puigdemont saying they are going ahead with declaring independence in a few days.
Thats going to be a real mess.
The odd thing is the reports are the independence movement would have probably lost a proper vote.
mogrim - Member
Juanca
I giggled! 😆
Northwind - Member
seosamh77 - Member
I think the spanish government would settle for a spain wide referendumThat'd be very magnanimous of them
Tbh the spanish response is entirely logical, if not sensible.
It's weird watching this from a scottish perspective, while everyone agrees they were overly heavy handed(calls of fascism are ridiculous btw), almost to a man there's support for the separistists from the separatists and support for the unionists for the unionists.
One would think they are using this to verify their own views.
Personally I think both the catalans and the unionists are at it. And tbh, I have some sympathy for the spanish view point. If the catalans are going to separate they need a bit more than a few people getting scudded about to justify it, ie they need a proper democratic mandate, which they don't have.
No it wasn't. Plenty of busses, reduced train service, and a few taxis running.
I meant locally to where I live. Not a single bar, shop, bakery, bus was open and the goods traffic seemed very quiet.Even the national chains such as Mercadona, Lidl etc closed around here. Can't speak for the bigger cities as I wasn't there.
and are not allowed to have. The sensible approach would be for Madrid to agree to a proper referendum and to campaign in favour of union.ie they need a proper democratic mandate, which they don't have
scotroutes - Member
ie they need a proper democratic mandate, which they don't have
and are not allowed to have. The sensible approach would be for Madrid to agree to a proper referendum and to campaign in favour of union.
They need constitutional change for that to happen though, hence their insistence on respecting the constitution, ie they want to put the blame onto the spanish people as a whole, as they'll probably not ratify constitutional change.. as I say they are both at it.
What else are you meant to do when one side wants to negotiate change and one side doesn't as they are happy with the situation as is? Not a lot of options and I can't see a happy ending anytime soon.
I agree they are at an impasse, one side is going to have to back down.
I'm with Km 79. Both sides should get talking quick. Puigedemont has eased back a little by not declaring independence within 48 hours as he claimed he would. Rajoy should reciprocate. I believe both governments are seen to be corrupt by some people.
They're both at it, and it's a handy way to move the debate on from how corrupt their respective parties were. Are.
There are other advantages too: Rajoy can watch as the opposition tear themselves apart trying to decide whether to support the hardline PP approach (which is reminiscent of Franco, of course) or whether to get crucified by the right wing newspapers for supporting a democratic right to choose. Puigdemont is eating away at the local support for the other basically single issue parties. Win-win.
The head of the Mossos d'Esquadra is being investigated for sedition - 4 to 8 year sentence if found guilty.
Oil on troubled waters?
Certainly seems to be a powerful force making its way towards Catalonia. I'm apprehensive.
Please let this be true...
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2nd biggest bank in Catalonia, is moving it's headquarters to Valencia, Caixabank, in talks to do same.
Spanish government obviously happy to assist, changing law making it easier for businesses to relocate.
Tourists not going to be visiting Barcelona, shops & businesses closed.
A vote that was looking 50/50 until rajoy sent the stormtroopers in, might lose support when it hits people's pockets, suppose it depends how much the Catalonians want it.
Briefing Room on R4 tonight had a good analysis of what would be required if they did actually split. They've gotta want it bad to go through all that!
I think they've shown some appetite Kimbers. Certainly going to be hard times if they go for independence, but how do Catalans feel staying in a country where they could be beaten by the police for trying to vote.
No idea if they want it that much tbh,
2 Catalan people in my work, one is furious with Spanish government but still doesn't want independence, other does want it, so 50/50 on my statistics 😉
Just wondering out loud so to speak, but with the way things are going just now both in Europe and in the USA could it be possible we will see countries splitting into two or more separate states but remaining as one country (as in shared space)?
It seems ridiculous even suggesting it, but there are some fundamental differences which are almost or close enough to 50-50 in terms of population split but not necessarily geographically. It may be preferable to have two or more systems within an overall system. Is this done anywhere now or has this ever been done before?
Watching the news it seems there are some pretty big companies ready to leave Catalunya in it tries to declare independence .
gordimhor - Memberhow do Catalans feel staying in a country where they could be beaten by the police for trying to vote.
Or senior police can be threatened with jail for not being willing to beat people for voting. TBH I don't really understand how a western government survives this.
Banks and other companies have transferred their head office today .
I reckon you should send Fox and Davis to Barcelona................
Northwind - Member
TBH I don't really understand how a western government survives this.
I'd doubt the majority of spanish support catalan independence, plus come the GE it won't be an issue of in the memory of the general electorate.
