What would be the wider implications of a full-bloodied secessionist shooting struggle in Catalonia, during the current European project ructions?
It seems a bit odd to me that they are bothering to blockade polling stations. After all, the Spanish Government have declared the referendum to be unconstitutional and it will be ignored.
Spanish government wants to minimise the turn out as huge demonstrations increase the support for Catalan independence.
tbh it seems like many people in catalunya want a referendum, about 70% going by reports I've read. Surely the sensible question on this should be: Should the spanish government allow a legally binding referendum on catalonian independence. yes or no?
Then once that comes back, let the spanish parliament deal with that. After that then cries of no democracy will start to have a bit of substance about them? (as currently it's too easy to point to the 78 vote and say look youse agreed with the constitution.)
dunno, I'm just speculating, I nothing about this tbh.
They are showing Pro Spain marches on the news this evening. Looks like there are lots of Spaniards living in Catalunya who want to remain Spanish.
This all sounds so familiar . . . .
Well it's getting a bit tetchy in our sleepy local village, the police have closed the school which is the polling station and a crowd has gathered chanting for democracy. Guess this is the situation in many other places as well.
Riot police dragging peaceful protesters away, elderly women with blood streaming down their faces - this is not going to end well.
Oh, and people in other parts of Spain who cheered the riot police when they headed off to Catalunya, and now singing Franco-era fascist songs.
Protesters throwing road work barriers at the police now.
Camera man running around trying to find an injured person to film. I imagine his producer shouting in his earpiece "we need blood, we need blood"
Local news reporting the Guarda Civil have cut internet connection to the vote hq, people seem to be able to vote but numbers seem low. Wonder what will happen to the ballot boxes when it's finished.
Why don't the Spanish government let it go ahead but say it's irrelevant and anybody who wants to stay part of Spain shouldn't vote in it. That way it would be a 100% Yes on a <50% turnout and the government could say fine, do that every weekend, we don't care, most people don't want to vote Yes.
If most people don't want to vote Yes then why not let it go ahead?
Why don't the Spanish government let it go ahead but say it's irrelevant and anybody who wants to stay part of Spain shouldn't vote in it. That way it would be a 100% Yes on a <50% turnout and the government could say fine, do that every weekend, we don't care, most people don't want to vote Yes.
Exactly. Like they did in 2014. National government seem to have gone from nothing to nuclear option in a fortnight this time.
If most people don't want to vote Yes then why not let it go ahead?
I think there's some nervousness about the accuracy of opinion polls these days
Hmm. Going out with work on Tuesday. I'm sure it'll be fine... 😐
Seems to me that the future is fewer, bigger countries or lots of relatively fluid, cooperative ones- more, better borders, more directly representative democracy.
I pretty much think this is inevitable. Whether the nationalists like it or not, the internet and increased mobility are resulting in the lines between countries and cultures being blurred to the point where national identity is a relic of history. Things like brexit and other independence movements are a reaction against centralised governments and the elites they represent. The nationalists are doing their best to use this as a vehicle for their own empowerment but they're swimming against the tide and will ultimately fail I think. Or at least I hope so.
Stupidity on all sides here. Government should take the approach above and disregard it. Campaigners should accept this but use less expensive approach to guaging opinion.
Campaigners should accept this
Campaigners: We want independence!
Government: No you can't.
Campaigners: Oh ok then.
???
Yes but trying to run a full scale referendum at huge public cost in the knowledge it has no legitimacy is nuts. That's not campaigning it's abusing power.
That's not campaigning it's abusing power.
As I understand it the Catalan govt were elected on a platform of providing a referendum. That is what they're doing. The fact that the Spanish govt refuses to allow this is largely irrelevant. The Spanish can either recognise the will of the people and allow a referendum, as the UK did with Scotland, or suppress it. If they choose the latter then they shouldn't be surprised if the Catalans defy them.
[quote=csb ]abusing power.
Like firing rubber bullets at people trying to put a cross on a piece of paper?
Presumably the use of rubber bullets if they're using them is legal despite being morally questionable? That's a separate issue.
You can be voted in on any ticket, but a mandate from the ballot box doesn't make something legal. The Catalans have been mislead.
csb - MemberThat's not campaigning it's abusing power.
Someone in this situation is abusing power. Is it the ones trying to suppress democracy? Or is it the ones trying to use it?
It's a strange idea of legitimacy you have. Democracy and legitimacy doesn't come from governments, it creates them.
Nothing like watching your friends and neighbours getting smashed in the head with police batons to swing undecided voters to the cause of national unity.
All Spain is going to achieve here is send out a message that if you want democracy you are going to need to fight for it.
So minoritiy interests (as the Catalans are in a national context) should be allowed to have a vote on anything in a restricted electorate, call it democracy, and expect it to be recognised?
Isn't the fairest way to allow all affected parties a vote on the issue, or none at all? How would that pan out in separatist/independence referenda?
csb - MemberIsn't the fairest way to allow all affected parties a vote on the issue, or none at all?
How do you feel about giving the EU a vote on whether the UK can leave?
No, what's fair about a majority over ruling the wants and needs of a minority who want to part ways?Isn't the fairest way to allow all affected parties a vote on the issue, or none at all?
[url= https://twitter.com/hussedogru/status/914424038214205440 ]Speaking of things that are illegal.[/url]
Can't see how the day doesn't end with serious injuries or worse.
<edit- literally posted the same video>
But it's definitely the Catalan government and the voters that are abusing their power by getting stamped on, thrown down stairs and dragged out of polling stations by their hair.
It's pretty humbling to see normal people facing this in order to vote, and remaining peaceful in the face of this- in europe, in 2017. The reasonable and proportional response is a riot. And of course the government already have their press releases loaded in the hope that they manage to provoke one.
I read earlier in the week that the local Catalan police force were sympathetic to the vote and would stand up and let it go ahead, the police brought in are from a different force (and higher level?) but I can't see any information on if the two police forces are at loggerheads.
If the national government wanted to courage separation they couldn't do a better job.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41459688/police-use-batons-on-crowd-in-barcelona ]BBC video[/url]
Maybe not sympathetic but not prepared to kick the shit out of their own people to prevent a vote that probably would have meant little if it had gone ahead peacefully.
You have to wonder why the government didn't just encourage its supporters to boycott the it. The result would have been 99% in favour of independence and everyone would just laugh.
the police brought in are from a different force
It's worse than that, it's the Guardia Civil. This lot were formerly the paramilitary police loyal to Franco so are particularly hated in Catalonia. Sending them in to beat up peaceful pro-democracy protesters is going to end well isn't it? This is going to get ugly I fear. It would be seismic enough for a large western democratic nation to split peacefully (like the UK and Scotland would have been), But a violent and chaotic split would be a European-wide political crisis.
Today we are witnessing either the death of democracy or the birth of a new nation.
EU suspiciously quiet on the matter.
I doubt if there are any Guardia Civil from the Franco era but I take the point.
Just seen footage on Twitter of the police setting about local firemen. This will have some repercussions.
As it involves the dissolution of a partnership, I do think the whole partnership should have a say. So yes to eu votes on brexit, Uk wide votes on Scotland etc.
As it involves the dissolution of a partnership, I do think the whole partnership should have a say. So yes to eu votes on brexit, Uk wide votes on Scotland etc.
And in Spain, what about the responsibility of this rich region to its poorer partners? They want to leave because they see the rest as a burden which seems a fair reason for the national government to say no.
csb - Member
As it involves the dissolution of a partnership, I do think the whole partnership should have a say. So yes to eu votes on brexit, Uk wide votes on Scotland etc.
That's just stupid.
Just watching some of the videos on twitter, the spanish government are mental, in what way do they think this won't lead to increased support for independence? As someone said above, a no boycott and a 99% yes would have been laughed at by everyone.
As it involves the dissolution of a partnership, I do think the whole partnership should have a say. So yes to eu votes on brexit, Uk wide votes on Scotland etc.
What partnership requires both partners to agree to dissolution?
Beat up peaceful protestors, the sure way to end the push for independance 😕
Shocking scenes coming out of Spain 😥
You know what, you're right. A partnership is an agreement between two sovereign entities. In the case of Catalonia, and Scotland, neither are entities in that sense so aren't partners. That being the issue I guess. They don't exist to have a say.
Ha! Nice troll, poor taste though.
What, mentioning Scotland which is why this is particularly relevant to the uk? Or had no one else thought what the implication of Catalonia for us could be.
