I can't imagine this is going to end well.
Catalunya having their own "Brexit"
Link ?
No RyanAir flights ?
Is brexit now a synonym for any group of people trying to vacate or separate from another?
Shirley it’s a Catxit...
Surely it's catalindyref and no Brexit?
bikebouy - MemberShirley it’s a Catxit...
Spanxit has a better ring to it.
[url] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41439787 [/url]
Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!
I thought this was going to be more "I'd leave that a minute if I were you" about holiday tummy-shames following a dodgy Esqueixada
Can't you just light a match?
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Is it time for a Freddie Mercury rendition of Barca’ ?
"It was like that when I went in" Honest!
It's funny, we've spoken to people from Catalunya who say it's nothing, just a minority of noisy people and we've spoken to Spaniards from the rest of the country who actually wish Catalunya would get on wth it and leave.
Interested to know how this is being reported outside Cataluña as local news is treating it as quite a good thing that citizens are allowed to exercise their right to vote. I spoke to a few people when we were in Asturias and they felt it was bad for Spain. The heavy handed reaction of Rahoy has served to strengthen the Si resolve whereas a few months ago the opinion was quite evenly balanced.
I was in central Barcelona yesterday and there was a big Guarda Civil prescence. Just to cap it all, I'm picking Mrs PB up on Sunday, again from Barca, she's flying with Ryanair!
I support any peoples right to self determination. The Catalans should be allowed a vote.
I hope it all ends peacefully.
PB - as far as I can tell, the coverage here in Aragon is "neutral". It's certainly the biggest story every day though. Well - this and the body they found in the dam!
gordimhor - Member
I support any peoples right to self determination. The Catalans should be allowed a vote.
I hope it all ends peacefully.
Well that's where the crux of the matter lies init. Are the Catalans a distinct and colonised people that the right to self determination is aimed at or are they a region simply trying to secede from a parent country, cause the concept of self determination on the latter there doesn't really exist, it certainly won't have other countries supporting you, and will need to be done via politics or war.
Though given that the right to self determination, in the context of colonised countries only really came about in a legal context in the 1960s. I guess the right of secession from a parent country is something that's really just waiting for a legal precedent.
Which will be quite a dangerous precedent tbh, as if you get the likes of capitals starting to decide they want to secede from a country on a simple 50%+1 vote and take all their wealth with them, hmm, that'll lead to fun and games in the future.
It's a complex question, so I don't think it should be an automatic right within existing and long established national entities. IMO it should be subject to negotiation and super majorities.
Next thing you know, Yorkshire will want independence!
If what I've read is true, Catalunya has been part of Spain for 800 odd years.
From what I read it is "peoples" who have the right to self determination. Trouble is there's no definition of "peoples" in international law.
Aye but it came about at at time when the colonies where all gaining independence, so I think from that you can ascertain that it's really just about support the disentangling of European colonialism as opposed to having the intention of sorting out Europe's internal politics.
Not that I'm against independence btw, I've obviously argued enough for SI on here. But like I say that should be done on a negotiated basis, and quite frankly, considering the brexit shambles, such questions being answered on a 50%+1 basis is utter nonsense and should never have been entertained, for that vote, or the previous SI vote.
Aye but the other thing about all those countries becoming independent, is that you can be pretty sure it was illegal to campaign for independence there too. Which kind of detracts from the argument about the Spanish constitution making the proposed referendum illegal. Though it is hard to see how any referendum on Sunday can possibly be held to any sort of international standard
National boundaries have been incredibly fluid throughout history. Why should we assume that the current political map of the world is the "right" one?
...if you get the likes of capitals starting to decide they want to secede from a country on a simple 50%+1 vote and take all their wealth with them...
That doesn't sound like a very likely scenario. The wealth of most capitals is dependent on the hinterland they control, and I don't think there have been a lot of cases of capital cities trying to escape their countries. London seemed quite keen to prevent Scotland leaving the UK during the Indy Ref campaign.
I don't think it is illegal to campaign for independence in spain?
It'll be illegal to hold a vote and act on in it without agreement with the Spanish government though. That's a different thing though that puts you in direct conflict with the parent country.
I met a few Catalans during our Indy ref. They were obviously on the Si side. They were hugely jealous of our ability to have a legal referendum.
I believe support for a referendum in Catalonia is much higher than support for independence.
kcr - Member
Why should we assume that the current political map of the world is the "right" one?
I don't. tbh i favour no borders.
They [b]were [/b]hugely jealous of our ability to have a legal referendum.
Aye [b]were[/b] jealous being the operative word there, there isn't any guarantee of another, the last yin that sturgeon bluffed got double bluffed by the general election, that flung everything up in the air in that respect.
That doesn't sound like a very likely scenario. The wealth of most capitals is dependent on the hinterland they control, and I don't think there have been a lot of cases of capital cities trying to escape their countries. London seemed quite keen to prevent Scotland leaving the UK during the Indy Ref campaign.
It's a simplistic example, but it's not beyond the realms of reality that if being able to change borders willy nilly becomes standard it'll result in some fairly interesting gerrymandering(or whatever the word would be in an international scale.)
don't think it is illegal to campaign for independence in spain?
Agreed
But if the government won't negotiate on the constitution there's no legal way to achieve independence.
That's politics for ye, you just need to keep chipping away. governments in democracies are transient.
tbh i suspect this stuff in spain is just that, ie just part of the catalan nationalist campaign to force a long term legally agreed ref. I doubt many would expect to declare UDI on the back of this one on the 1st.
I blame Wilfred the Hairy!
As with all these things, it boils down to money. The difference between what Cataluña pays to Madrid and what it gets back is claimed to be €16bn. Catalans complain that they subsidise major infrastructure projects in the poorer south, airports that are mothballed, roads to nowhere, housing estates that have never been lived in etc but suffer a lack of investment.
There's all sorts of rumours regarding what might happen on Sunday, I hope it doesn't end badly but wouldn't rule it out, there are a lot of hotheads about.
That's politics for ye, you just need to keep chipping away.
Exactly. Up here in País Vasco that's exactly what the PNV have done (Basque Nationalist Party). Slowly but surely won more autonomy, fiscal control etc from the spanish state until just about the only thing we're missing is a national football squad.
A referendum here would not be clear cut either but slowly slowly catchy monkey.
Seosamh
it's not beyond the realms of reality that if being able to change borders willy nilly becomes standard it'll result in some fairly interesting gerrymandering(or whatever the word would be in an international scale.)
Iam sure you know this has already bindun look at those lovely straight lines in the middle east.
considering the mess that was the spanish civil war, considering its really not that long ago franco died, considering the mess the the national right wing government has made of this since the summer its amazing this referendum dispute is so civil.
gordimhor - Member
Seosamhit's not beyond the realms of reality that if being able to change borders willy nilly becomes standard it'll result in some fairly interesting gerrymandering(or whatever the word would be in an international scale.)
Iam sure you know this has already bindun look at those lovely straight lines in the middle east.
aye, obviously created with a lot of concern for the local sensitivities those!
look at those lovely straight lines in the middle east.
Map lines are fascinating. As seen here;
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Curves to the East formed to meet the range of the ship's guns on the river.
bob_summers - MemberA referendum here would not be clear cut either but slowly slowly catchy monkey.
went a wander to spain years ago, 2012 I think and got talking to an old boy in san seb about the various independence desires, we both reckoned they were each sitting somewhere around 50%ish. could go either way on any of them. Canny mind if the SI ref had been called by that point or it just looked like it was on the cards.
Rajoy was caught between a rock and a hard place - let the Catalans get on with it (and he'd probably win) but then he'd be crucified by his own party. So he went for the easy (and weak) option of using force to stop it.
If he'd had the cojones to have just ridiculed the stupidity of calling a referendum that will never go anywhere he'd have held the moral high ground, and won a majority. Now the Catalans are pissed off at Madrid telling them what to do, and who knows what will come of it.
Is brexit now a synonym
Isn’t it a verb, not a synonym? To brexit, to remove yourself needlessly from your peers.
Seems to me that the future is fewer, bigger countries or lots of relatively fluid, cooperative ones- more, better borders, more directly representative democracy. There's nothing magic or sacred about the size of any one country and pretending otherwise leads to friction at best, wars, all sorts of bad juju. Soft borders change the reality of countries in Europe massively.
And bringing brexit into a debate that's been happening for centuries years is the most brexity-little-britain thing I can imagine.
seosamh77 - MemberWell that's where the crux of the matter lies init. Are the Catalans a distinct and colonised people that the right to self determination is aimed at or are they a region simply trying to secede from a parent country, cause the concept of self determination on the latter there doesn't really exist,
Why not? A historical distinction makes things easier- nobody asks where the borders of an independent scotland would be- but it's not a prerequisite. In this case, Catalonia's a pretty well established region too but if Milton Keynes decides to go it alone, what does it matter if they were ever the Kingdom of Milltown and the Free Republic of Keens?
I'm not saying they can't be if they want to be, i'm just saying that it shouldn't be automatic and needs to be politically agreed. Or militarily, if that takes their fancy, wouldn't recommend that myself though.
They catalans did vote for the spanish constitution in 1978 btw, 95% yes, on a 67% turnout. So there is that square needing rounded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978
btw only parallel with brexit i'm making is that 50%+1 is a crap way to settle questions of such magnitude.
lnobody asks where the borders of an independent scotland would be
Easy - like Lesotho but two enclaves; greater Dundee and Glasgow. Surrounded by rUk but with open and free borders
Now if someone had proposed that...
Is this an advisory "illegal" referendum or a real illegal referendum?
All for that thm! 😆 count me in! viva la republica de los estados de weegieville!
I think the former!
Why two enclaves thm?
Why not all four ?
People live in the other two Gordi??
Three are essentially one anyway. Outline looks a bit like Bermuda but without the money
Next thing you know, Yorkshire will want independence!
Don't be giving us ideas like that 😆
Yes I'd noticed that, people live all over Scotland. It's a bit like Catalonia that way
Any updates from locals?
Police seem to be "active" ?
