MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27922781
Not sure what the last comment on the BBC article is getting at
Whatever Johann Westhauser's motive was, it has turned out to be an expensive exercise, both in terms of money but also in terms of the sweat and risk expended by the people who have pulled him out.
Should they have just left him down there then?
Perhaps now that the BBC have made TV news appeal to ITV watchers, they are now gunning for tabloid readers too.
I think what the [s]parasite[/s] journalist is getting at is that he has no real concept of human decency and no real understanding that there are folk out there who are willing, and able to help those in need in situations like this.
I was only yesterday reading about the 33 miners that got pulled out in 2010. It probably would have been a lot cheaper just to brick them in too. 😕
Not sure what the last comment on the BBC article is getting at
So you went immediately to outrage without pausing to re-read?
There's the obvious question "What was Johann doing down there in the 1st place?" which the journo answers: "work or hobby, we're not sure could be either or both."
then -
Whatever Johann Westhauser's motive was, it has turned out to be an expensive exercise, both in terms of money but also in terms of the sweat and risk expended by the people who have pulled him out.
He's not questioning the rescue, he's questioning the guy's trip down in the first place given the value of his experience weighed against the risks to others (and the cost in resources) should something go wrong, as they did in this case. A question not lost on Johann, I'd imagine.
Glad he's out. He actually discovered the cave a few years ago. He was down there with two others so he could have been acting as a paid guide or just exploring. The local town authorities will vote on whether the caves should be sealed. The rescue has caused a lot of problems and is rumoured to have cost more than euro 2m
To be fair, the rescue was a brilliant feat of human bravery and ingenuity so I wouldn't complain about the cost. People were willing to do it, money is unimportant.
@Tom so what if they have to rescue someone every month ? The money comes from somewhere and it could have been used for something else.
Funny you should mention the BBC article. It also struck me as offering opinion which is not usually what you see on BBC.
Of course they should not seal it. we rescue people off mountains and from the sea, no-one suggest preventing access to these areas.
The cave rescue teams will have welcomed the challenge and experience they have taken from the incident.
o what if they have to rescue someone every month
But they don't do they? If they did then insurance would probably be more widely used, or permit access etc.
Whatever Johann Westhauser's motive was, it has turned out to be an expensive exercise, both in terms of money but also in terms of the sweat and risk expended by the people who have pulled him out.
As well as being suggestive/opinionated, that is really badly worded.
The cave rescue teams will have welcomed the challenge and experience they have taken from the incident.
Probably, but that skates over the negatives. I'd guess they're all, or almost all volunteers & enthuiasts. I can't imagine it was a convenient time for all of them, though, or that there weren't moments when they wished they were tucked up in bed or cuddling their kids.
The argument of closing the caves is interesting. The rescue guys, or certainly some of the most experienced and valuable on the team, will have been local experts and enthusiasts. Would they want to be denied access?
As well as being suggestive/opinionated, that is really badly worded.
I really don't think so. The "expensive exercise" is Johann's trip down the mine. There's no doubt at all that it worked out to be an expensive exercise.
The only thing it suggests is that perhaps the original trip down wasn't worth it, given the consequences.
Did he leave a note telling everyone where he was going?
IMO he's ok to do what he wants/when he wants, however Caving by it's very nature is dangerous and to that it's expected that some will get into trouble.
I'm glad he's out, I'm glad folks volunteered to go get him.
money is unimportant.
Often said by people until it's their money being spent 😀
How soon before the book and then the film, directed by Danny Boyle?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Moss_(caver) ]Neil Moss. [/url]
Not a very common occurrence, thankfully.
Did he leave a note telling everyone where he was going?
He was with two others, one guy went back to surface for help and one stayed with him
Tom so what if they have to rescue someone every month ? The money comes from somewhere and it could have been used for something else.
Quit mountainbiking in the hills then.
IMO he's ok to do what he wants/when he wants, however Caving by it's very nature is dangerous and to that it's expected that some will get into trouble.
In Britain the drive to the cave is more dangerous than the caving itself...
Cave Rescue are excellent (having used their services once, and that's one more time than I would have liked to!) and much respect to the guy who apparently had a 12 hour trip by himself to get out to call the rescue team in.
12 hours is a reasonably long trip in a group, 12 hours by yourself is a very long time and 12 hours to exit and then call the rescue is something else!
Sincerely hope this guy's going to be ok.
Wow. I am amazed at the ignorance shown on this thread. As someone who knows Johann from my time in GErmany and who has caved with him in many caves on that very mountain, and may well have been with him in 1996 on the Untersberg when the cave was first discovered (we were simply mapping entrances back then, the cave wasn't properly explored until 2002) I think I have a fair idea of the situation up there. I am also a member of the South and Mid Wales Cave Rescue so understand exactly what it means to put yourself at risk to help rescue someone who you may or may not know. I can assure you that even if it was left to a team of 3 cavers they would have given their all to get Johann out of that cave.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON... I will say that again EVERY SINGLE PERSON who went in to the cave to help him (including the doctors) was a volunteer and in many cases would have taken unpaid leave to take part in the rescue. There are NO paid persons in any "official" rescue organisation in the world with the skills, knowledge or fitness needed to carry out such a rescue. The costs involved in the rescue will be in the helicopter time flying personnel and gear up and down the mountain and, to a large degree paying for a completely superfluous and unnecessary police and fire brigade presence on the surface. Johann will have some insurance through the German Alpine club (up to 25K euros.) He will also be able to draw on a CAvers Solidarity Fund set up in the 90s into which we all paid for just such a scenario (this will represent another slab of cash). However, there will be a significant shortfall due to the expense of the chappers and the German Cave Rescue (another voluntary organisation) has set up a fund to which people can donate to help cover any costs. Should there be money left over it will go to the Cave Rescue funds for gear and training.
If anyone wants any more facts on the rescue just ask. Please don't speculate.
Well said welshfarmer. If you spent any time at SWCC in the mid 90s we may even have had a few beers (or in my case vodkas) in the long common room...
+1 Welshfarmer
MrAdamW is a member of DCRO (Derbyshire Cave Rescue Organization). Strangely enough normally he gets called out about four times a year, last month it seemed non-stop!
welshfarmer +1
Mid 90's at the SWCC? I would have made a few trips and stayed there the odd time in the early 90's. Great place iirc. That place gave me my username 🙂 😳 .
Mostly mendips for us though back then as that was daytrip distance.
Early 90's we used to stay at the Croydon hut in Ystradfellte, only going to SWCC to get a key for the caves up there. From 95-2000 I lived in Stuttgart and caved mostly in the Alps, hence knowing the area and the caver being rescued.
If anyone wants to see some film of the area and the cave then there was a recent TV programme on German tele worth watching, even if you can't follow the lingo. Cave is shown at the beginning at again at 9mins and about 25 mins in. The interview with the caver where they use subtitles due to his very strong dialect is Johann 🙂
The rest of the programme is worth watching too, especially the salt mines bit.
Nice documentary, well filmed. I wish it was available with subtitles because I don't speak German. I'm interested in the salt mines, at what time are they featured?
Have done some caving in Derbyshire including one very thrilling experience that involved a short sump. No caver would ever countenance abandoning another person underground.
Salt mines are the first feature straight after the initial cave scenes, probably about 4-5 minutes in.
+1 welshfarmer
ex-Mountain Rescuer here. I've been watching the events in Germany unfold. For me it's been inspiring and uplifting. And I hope Johann carries on caving.
Mid 90's at SWCC - those were the days, Dudley and the Dragon van, camping trips into Dan-yr-Ogof. Either that or off to Bat Products and a trip on the Mendips. 😀 😀
Dudley with the Dragon van, lol. I first met him and became mates in Germany when he used to come over every year to the annual congress. And never forget the Friday night rush to get out of London and down to the HUnters Moon on Mendip before closing time. Standing toom only, proper pints out of the barrel, and then back to the BEC Belfrey for mad cap hilarity. Those were the days! 😀
Awesome work getting him out. If he was regularly getting stuck, or people frequently needed rescuing from those caves, then the complaints about cost/risk might be well-founded, but as it is it's an amazing feat to get him out.
I enjoy tourist caves (Cheddar Gorge etc.) but the proper narrow and underwater stuff looks as terrifying to me as the James Kingston free running stuff. This story in the guardian sounds horrific to me: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/30/experience-trapped-in-nine-inch-crevice
Uh-oh - this is about to be 'debated' on R2 - Jeremy Vine show. Cue random shock hysteria and widespread condemnation of doing anything outside for fun v hopefully someone with a proper interest.
I have emailed them my phone number. Let's see if they give me a call 🙂
Ok - tuned in. Good luck.
welshfarmer - are you about to be on?
money is unimportant.
Often said by people until it's their money being spent
What price do you put on a human life?
Here we go.
Nights at the Belfry! Drunken crockery cricket and a trip down St Cuthbert's with a hangover - that rift at the entrance soon sorted the hangover out though. I was a BEC member for a couple of years around 1994...
Anyone remember Jingles? He was a very good mate to me. I was very sad to discover that he'd died some years after we lost touch.
Also, the Priddy Olympics were quite mad. Sofa rugby springs to mind. The women's team played very hard indeed!
Also, the Priddy Olympics were quite mad. Sofa rugby springs to mind. The women's team played very hard indeed!
You are Rowley Birkin!
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If I said that their idea of a tackle was to grab your tackle it would only confirm your opinion, HTS. It's true though...!
+1 welshfarmer
I wonder next time a mountain biker is a long way from a road, whether they should be left to rot, and all future biking be banned in that area?
What about the search for the missing Malay airlines plane. Maybe we should never risk anything, and never.hope for rescue?
If mountainbikers and cavers were ever deemed to be 'not worth rescuing' MrsJulianA and I would both have been in dire straits (at different times), so no, I don't think that's a good idea.
On a different note, after my cave rescue on Mendip we organised a pub crawl around Portswood and Bevios Valley in Southampton in caving kit. Probably more hazardous than the caving, to be honest, but we did raise a few quid!
I don't there's anybody on this thread or in the original article who's suggested that people shouldn't be rescued. Thanks Welshfarmer for the first hand knowledge.
Anyone know these guys? I would really like to know how much they're playing up to it. They're very earnest indeed. Very earnest...
Not come across the unicycling cavers, but I do remember Jingles at the Belfry. Did a few trips down Cuthberts with 'Zot' who would open the sluice gate to make climbing the entrance rift that little bit more 'sporting' 🙂
I remember a long thread on the UK Caving forum about the unicycling in Aggy. Cue 2 camps, one of outrage and one of "if it brings more people in to the sport then it is OK and they weren't doing any harm"
natrix - Member
Not come across the unicycling cavers, but I do remember Jingles at the Belfry. Did a few trips down Cuthberts with 'Zot' who would open the sluice gate to make climbing the entrance rift that little bit more 'sporting'
Glad someone else remembers the late John 'Jingles' Williams. Great guy and I wish he were still around.
Don't remember 'Zot' though. Never climbed that rift with the water on, but it would definitely make it more 'sporting'! We always did trips short enough that the dam wouldn't overflow in the time we were down there. Brilliant cave.
Never saw the point of Eas****er, but had some great trips down Swildon's and GB. Loved Singing River - great fun!