There must surely be an explanation.
I know if they killed members of my family then I would be rather forceful in my actions against them,
Nadine has a particular gripe with the BBC regarding her brothers film not being shown, it’s no wonder the ****ing cowards didn’t broadcast her set earlier
https://twitter.com/coldwarsteve/status/1939329011148370018
So the court has decided that selling equipment for bombing children is fine. Still, it’s all democratic, eh?
lowkey absolutely on point regarding the political and media pile on, he shows far worse chants but from “the other side”
BBC lunchtime news leading with a lie.
Good interview, I’ve been following his writing in “The New Republic” for a few months now.
I've been following the Bob Vylan / Glasto reporting. Is anyone else getting really fed up of the constant cry of antisemitism? Of course I do not support any chants of death to anyone, it is not helpful and distracts from the core argument . But it must be okay to object to war crimes, to object to man-made humanitarian crisis and object to killing of civilians at aid stations, without being call antisemitic. It just feels like a lazy counter argument designed to scare people, and media, off from calling out the bloody obvious.
Writing on X, Sir Ephraim Mirvis wrote:, external "This is a time of national shame. The airing of vile Jew-hatred at Glastonbury and the BBC's belated and mishandled response, brings confidence in our national broadcaster's ability to treat antisemitism seriously to a new low.
"It should trouble all decent people that now, one need only couch their outright incitement to violence and hatred as edgy political commentary, for ordinary people to not only fail to see it for what it is, but also to cheer it, chant it and celebrate it. Toxic Jew-hatred is a threat to our entire society."
Mirvis is always saying stuff like this. A bird tweets and he claims it's antisemitic. This is the guy who seems fine with chanting "death to Arabs"
The problem is that accusations of anti-semitism is all that zionists have, even when responding to criticism from Jews.
Racists very often claim to be the victim of racism, think the BNP, the EDL, and Nazis during WW2
Edit : And the other thing to note of course is no one helps more to propagate anti-jewish racism than people like Benjamin Netanyahu who loudly, and falsely, proclaims to the world that what he does is in on behalf of World Jewry.
Is anyone else getting really fed up of the constant cry of antisemitism?
Yes!
If nothing else, it's so obviously nonsense it detracts attention from real anti-semitism.
Of course I do not support any chants of death to anyone, it is not helpful and distracts from the core argument . But it must be okay to object to war crimes, to object to man-made humanitarian crisis and object to killing of civilians at aid stations, without being call antisemitic. It just feels like a lazy counter argument designed to scare people, and media, off from calling out the bloody obvious.
Absolutely. But calling for the deaths of IDF soldiers is more than "not helpful", it reduces you to the level of anyone else that thinks genocide is a good solution here.
Yours, ossify. Fully paid-up Jew. 😉
calling for the deaths of IDF soldiers
As has been said many times, that didn't happen. Unlike the chants of "death to Arabs".
In accordance with moderator's requests, I'm going to respond to a post on the RAF thread, here:
Given a choice between a dead Palestinian or a dead Israeli Sir Keir Starmer would very clearly prefer a dead Palestinian. I on the other hand would prefer a dead Israeli.
How about a choice of no deaths at all? It's always an option. If you wish to choose between people based on their race, culture or nationality, then that makes you, by definition, a racist. To say that one life is worth more than another, is racism.
I base my conclusion on the fact that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine and under international law it is perfectly legal to violently oppose foreign occupation, my position in rooted in legality.
What 'legality'? Israel is a legitimate state recognised in international law, as is Palestine. Do you wish to deny Israelis their right to statehood? To deny them the same rights you'd afford others, based on where they are born or what their passport says? Again that would be racism.
Sir Keir Starmer's position on the other hand is rooted in illegality - the illegal occupation of Palestine.
Are you talking about just the illegal settlements in the West Bank? Because the rest of Israel is 'legal' in international law. What are your views on Gibraltar, or the Falkland Islands?
So is this a "war" as the media constantly tells us that it is or not? I have never heard of a war where only one side is expected to do the killing.
Right now, it is a genocide, but as one-sided as it seems, Hamas have still been firing rockets into Israel and targeting civilians. This is fact.
Unlike the chants of "death to Arabs"
Yup, calling for the death of an army actively involved in genocide and war crimes, many of whom aren't even Jewish, isn't the same as calling for the death of an entire race.
Yup, calling for the death of an army actively involved in genocide and war crimes, many of whom aren't even Jewish, isn't the same as calling for the death of an entire race.
I can agree with that but still don't agree with calling for their death.
As has been said many times, that didn't happen. Unlike the chants of "death to Arabs".
Sorry, the IDF, not IDF soldiers. Splitting hairs here.
calling for the deaths of IDF soldiers
As has been said many times, that didn't happen. Unlike the chants of "death to Arabs".
As much as you'e like to apply your own revisionism to this, it did happen, and there's video of it occurring. It cannot be denied. It is fact. Chanting 'death to the IDF' is calling for human beings to die. Human beings like members of my own family. Every single Jewish person I know, is appalled by what Bob Vylan did. It's not just the few simple words; it's the wave of antisemitism that inevitably follows events like this. Every single Jewish person I know is wary of being open about their Jewishness, in public. People are no longer wearing Magen Davids visibly. Some are choosing not to wear kippah on shabbat, for fear of being attacked. Antisemitic attacks have risen sharply in the UK in the last couple of years. Jewish is now being conflated with Israel. Every Jewish person I know finds themselves being grilled about Israel etc, if they dare let it be known they are Jewish. I myself am witnessing and having to challenge antisemitism on a regular basis. To dismiss the chants of 'death to the IDF' is to dismiss the problem of growing antisemitism. So, please; enough with the revisionism.
I've been following the Bob Vylan / Glasto reporting. Is anyone else getting really fed up of the constant cry of antisemitism? Of course I do not support any chants of death to anyone, it is not helpful and distracts from the core argument .
I'm not bothered by what he called for, considering the hundreds/thousands of war crimes/killings/deaths the IDF have carried out I consider it an entirely justifiable position...... 😆 but.....but....but.....the most moral army in the world......... 😆 ............yeah that's ****ing bullshit, they've exposed who they are, and it aint moral.
So what we should be saying to express the revulsion we feel for the genocide that Israel is committing?
“Prime Minister announces cuts to the NHS”
I assume that means that doctors and nurses are being attacked with knives? Or does “the NHS” mean something else? So give it a rest with the pathetic victimhood.
Jewish is now being conflated with Israel. Every Jewish person I know finds themselves being grilled about Israel etc, if they dare let it be known they are Jewish.
Given that the Chief Rabbi and the Board of Deputies are staunch supporters of the genocide, that’s an easy mistake to make. Now maybe you understand how it feels to be a Muslim in Britain and held responsible for Al Qaeda. The difference being, of course, that the Muslim leaders did not speak out in support of Osama Bin Laden.
So what we should be saying to express the revulsion we feel for the genocide that Israel is committing?
That it must stop.
That our own governments should use boycotts, sanctions and be outspoken in calling for it to end.
I'm not ready to call for anyone to be killed. Well, apart from perhaps some key politicians that are using this war to avoid jail and keep power. That's targeting those specifically to blame for avoiding peace, rather than a general attack on those caught up in the war.
"The situation is terrifying... the increasing pace of bombings, mass evacuations, and food shortages are forcing us to do things we never imagined, even in our worst nightmares. I went to Netzarim, the area where aid trucks enter — aid that is constantly being stolen. We couldn’t find anything to eat, so I decided to go there. I went daily for a week, and every day we saw death around us. Many people died in front of me, bullets flew over our heads, and every now and then we had to throw ourselves to the ground to avoid getting shot.
Once, aid trucks arrived as I got there — it was literally like a battlefield. Everyone was pushing and hitting each other, the army was shooting, planes were flying above us. And after all that chaos, I managed to get just three cans of beans! I swear it wasn’t even worth the exhaustion I went through.I saw a child suffocate while trying to gather cans that fell to the ground — people stepped on him, can you imagine?! Another young man got his foot crushed under the weight of the crowd. Someone else was shot in the neck and died instantly.
All these scenes keep replaying in my mind. At the same time, we walk long distances to collect water, light fires to cook — and sometimes we can’t even do that because we don’t always have food And in the middle of all this, there’s another part of me: I’m a student studying law in English at Al-Azhar University, attending classes online, preparing for exams and trying to keep studying.
The problem is that accusations of anti-semitism is all that zionists have, even when responding to criticism from Jews.
I think when it's other Jews protesting, they term it blood liable instead.
I'd hate to be thought of as an antisemite, but I'm definitely antizionist.
“Prime Minister announces cuts to the NHS”
I assume that means that doctors and nurses are being attacked with knives? Or does “the NHS” mean something else? So give it a rest with the pathetic victimhood.
Oh come off it, don't be so disingenuous.
I have a brother working in the NHS. Would I be worried for his safety if I heard people calling for "death to the NHS"? No, I'd think they were talking about the organisation, not the individual people.
But in the current context of war, genocide and actual killings on both sides, calling for "death to the IDF" means death, pretty obviously. But of course you have the deniable plausibility defence of turning around all innocence and saying "oh, of course I didn't mean actual death, not like the other side does, no way".
Maybe he didn't mean death. Should've thought it through a bit better then, before leading a public chant.
Jewish is now being conflated with Israel
Not as much as any criticism whatsoever of the Israel regime and it’s genocide is immediately labeled as antisemitism
But yeah - Glastonbury.
The discussion about Glastonbury should not be allowed to overshadow the horrifying reality of what's actually happening in Gaza. That said, it should still be discussed.
I think when it's other Jews protesting, they term it blood liable instead.
Which refers to a deeply anti-semitic conspiracy theory.
I'd hate to be thought of as an antisemite, but I'm definitely antizionist.
ive heard it said that most zionists are Evangelical Christians. Those mad americans with their relgious furver need the "holy land" to be populated by the "right" people, as some for of weird sacrafice for the end of the times, that they all bonk on about.
i think the insane attitidue to religion in the states should take a lot of the blame for propping them up.
Just look at the New York mayoral elections. All proudly stating their first task if they got elected would be to go to israel.
The NY mayor.
WTF.
shame on the BBC and the Eavis's for their statements about Bob Vylan being antisemitic.
Who is pulling their strings?
What 'legality'? Israel is a legitimate state recognised in international law, as is Palestine. Do you wish to deny Israelis their right to statehood? To deny them the same rights you'd afford others, based on where they are born or what their passport says? Again that would be racism.
The legallity of armed resistance against a hostile occupying force. The only thing I want to deny Israelis is the right to wage war on a civilian population. Oh, and the right to try and discredit any critical voice as bigotry. I'm so over that shit.
I regret Bob's choice of words, but I fully endorse the sentiment behind it - they didn't say it with any intent of inciting violence, in direct contrast to, say, Lucy Connelly who did. If Vera Lynn had sung "... don't know where, don't know when - death death to Himmler's SS!" in a live concert in 1940, would it have been seen as a genuine incitement to violence? Or bigotry? No.
I have a brother working in the NHS. Would I be worried for his safety if I heard people calling for "death to the NHS"? No, I'd think they were talking about the organisation, not the individual people
Well exactly, so it's a feat of gymnastics to pretend that
death to the IDF" means death, pretty obviously.
I think Humpty Dumpty sums up your position:
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
I'm not ready to call for anyone to be killed.
Not even in Ukraine? I would much rather no one died in a totally unnecessary bloody war in Ukraine but despite that I am fairly relaxed about the idea of anyone chanting "death to the Russian armed forces"
The Palestinian people have as much right to defend themselves from foreign aggression as the Ukrainian people.
If the people bombing children, starving them, and setting them alight in field hospitals, were killed, I would strongly welcome it.
And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves imo.
it reduces you to the level of anyone else that thinks genocide is a good solution here.
Conflating taking on an armed force carrying out an holocaust of their own with genocide is not helpful.
As is the eye for an eye approach as that just creates more martyrs/reactionaries to continue the bloodshed.
I've been consistent with Ukraine, we need to call for Russia to withdraw... I've never called for Russians to be killed. I'm sure I'd feel quite different if I was in Ukraine (or Gaza), but calling for the mass killing of people from the safety of the UK feels wrong to me.
feat of gymnastics
There's a lot of gymnastics in this thread. I daresay a Hamas member waving his AK47 in the air and screaming "death to Israel!" is just showing his support for a deconstruction of the Israeli state and a peaceful return of the Palestinian people to their lands.
(This post is just about meaning of words and mental gymnastics. I do not mean to directly compare Hamas/IDF/Bob Vylan/anyone else or the situation itself.)
If the people bombing children, starving them, and setting them alight in field hospitals, were killed, I would strongly welcome it.
And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves imo.
Conflating taking on an armed force carrying out an holocaust of their own with genocide is not helpful.
For clarity, I was arguing against the "kill them all, every last one of them, without exception" approach (which is IMO what "death to IDF" implies in context), not the right to fight against them.
calling for the mass killing of people from the safety of the UK feels wrong to me.
Who's called for "mass killing" ? Kill enough IDF terrorists/soldiers (take your pick) so that they are forced to negotiate.
Right now Gaza is a turkey shoot for the IDF, they have absolutely no incentive to stop slaughtering Palestinisns.
Jewish is now being conflated with Israel. Every Jewish person I know finds themselves being grilled about Israel etc, if they dare let it be known they are Jewish.
Deliberately done by the government of Isreal and its apologists. Despite why they say critism of isreals actions and its government are not antisemitic. the shout of "death to the IDF" is NOT a cry to kill jews, its a cry to end a racist terrorist organisation.
When you deliberately conflate critism of the isreali government and its army with antisemitism this is what you get. You reap what you sew
Criticism of Isreal is not antisemitism, calling for an end to the genocide is not antisemitism.
I daresay a Hamas member waving his AK47 in the air and screaming "death to Israel!" is just showing his support for a deconstruction of the Israeli state and a peaceful return of the Palestinian people to their lands.
I missed that. Was it on at the same time as Charli XCX ?
"kill them all, every last one of them, without exception" approach (which is IMO what "death to IDF" implies in context),
You're getting more and more extreme !! Pretty soon you'll be sounding like Netanyahu !!
Anyway putting aside what words should be used to describe the horrors being perpetuated in Gaza and the West Bank by the IDF let's remind ourselves what these horrors actually involve
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5kk1w00xyo
Over 500 Palestinians have been killed while seeking aid since the GHF started operating in late May.
"Orphaned children and caregivers are among the dead, with children harmed in over half of the attacks on civilians at these sites."
According to a report by Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Friday, unnamed Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers said they were ordered to shoot at unarmed civilians near aid distribution sites to drive them away or disperse them.
Imagine the UK government's response had this been happening in occupied Ukraine and it was the Russian army shooting dead starving children seeking aid to "disperse them".
This is crowd control nazi style, and the UK Labour government occasionally tuts in a vaguely disapproving manner whilst maintaining military, diplomatic, and political support, for the genocidal regime.
You're getting more and more extreme !! Pretty soon you'll be sounding like Netanyahu !!
Get a grip of yourself man. Ossify has been perfectly clear he is anti genocide. He has an issue with the contents of a dubious act on a show.
Neither you or he know what was meant by the artist in question. And nothing good come from personal attacks on a thread like this.
Netanyahu and his lackeys like Mirvis have, quite subtly, done what the likes of Goebbels did.
By constantly framing any opposition to Israeli crimes as anti-semitism, they've achieved two goals. On one hand they've shut down more moderate critics or those who must show supposed balance. But this doesn't get them very far. Most of us can hear a report of food queues being fired upon and not fall victim to any attempt to frame it as self defence.
But, more importantly, what they have also done is drag moderate Jews and Israelis into their orbit because in Europe and the US etc those people are now being asked about (and probably criticised for) the actions of a government and country they may never have been to. As someone posted above - now think about an Indonesian or Bangladeshi Muslim who faced similar lumping in with Al Qaeda or the Taliban.
The nazis made their people complicit in their crimes. Most international criminal governments or organisations do.
By choosing to make any criticism of Israel antisemitism, the likes of Mirvis are politicising people on behalf of Netanyahu.
What a plonker this Mirvis fella is - he's right it's a time of national shame. He just hasn't quite worked out what nation. In his world this post is Antisemenitic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70rrld1nlpo
What a plonker this Mirvis fella is
Not do much a plonker as someone who knows what side his bread is buttered on and who provides it.
56,500 dead Palestinians (133,600) wounded. Versus 1,200 Israelis and 200 hostages.
Every single one of those is a tragedy but you can't ignore the relative quantities.
Self defence my arse.
Yes. We are somewhat ahead of you PrinceJohn.
I hadn't connected the dots & didn't know who he was until the article above gave context.
Neither you or he know what was meant by the artist in question.
That's a funny thing to say, because ossify has been quite clear that he does know.
