[Closed] Friday Flame - why do people speed so casually?

Off topic a bit but one of the types of driver that get me are the ones you overtake between villages because they're rolling along at 45. Then at the next village you slow to the 30 but they catch up and get right up your chuff because they want to do 45 through the village as well. Fools.

Monospeeders. Surely one of the greatest menaces on the roads today.

Apparently this is all BS... even [s]the moderator[/s] [b]another forum user[/b] says so!

FTFY.

One of the most useful views of the road ahead is underneath the car

It's when you are on some random B road and being forced to do 40 when there's no hazards other than the odd pheasant that would warrant doing a lower speed than 75.

I treat 30 and 40 limits as sacrosanct but empty open country roads have places where I'm quite happy to go over the national.

My apologies, I didn't realise you drove scalextrix.

If you're a safe distance from the car in front, you can see daylight underneath and - at times - get a very useful view of the road ahead.

The fact that this seems ridiculous to you reaffirms the value of Advanced Driver training as it is second nature for me to use this and many other techniques to gather as much information as possible.

ADT isn't about driving fast, it's about driving safe and in a way that makes your vehicle last longer. Speed is [i]sometimes[/i] a byproduct of safe driving.

After our torrential downpours yesterday it's an absolutely stunning Autumn morning.

Make Progress everyone, and don't forget the hoot and flick the bird at every other road user that annoys you !!

Stay safe.

😆

If you're a safe distance from the car in front, you can see daylight underneath and - at times - get a very useful view of the road ahead.

The fact that this seems ridiculous to you reaffirms the value of Advanced Driver training as it is second nature for me to use this and many other techniques to gather as much information as possible.

I like nothing more than the epic turn-in I get from my T4 when I left foot brake coming into a roundabout. If you can't left foot brake then don't tell me you're an advanced driver.

Oh, and My nan did ADT, it used to reduce the insurance premium, now it just marks you as a bell end.

There's no earthly reason for left foot braking in a manual car, most modern cars lack the torque needed to make the technique of any use whatsoever.

Heel-and-toeing has [i]some[/i] uses, particularly in wet conditions, but left foot braking just marks you out as a bellend.

You're obviously not a road cyclist then

I am. Whether someone drives by me at 40, 45, or 50 makes no difference to me. As long as they overtake safely. Not into oncoming cars, go to opposite side of road, not before a corner etc,.

My word....

There are some extreme Lewis Hamilton wannabe bell-ends on this thread...

I treat 30 and 40 limits as sacrosanct but empty open country roads have places where I'm quite happy to go over the national.

Another one who apparently never rides a bike on the road

No I don't now but I did and I've been knocked off my bike a couple of times, none were because the car/truck was speeding.

This blinkered view that under the limit=safe and over=unsafe is ridiculous and dangerous.

I go no faster than I can see and stop in and never assume that the road is clear. So whatever the hazard, I'm prepared. Knowing what's going on around you and driving appropriately is crucial to safety for all road users, to say that speed is bad period is nonsense.

Road safety material often quotes "it takes X metres to stop from Xmph" but I've never found it very relatable until I recently carried out an emergency stop from 100mph on vehicle proving ground training. Genuinely scary how far we travelled before stopping.
It hasn't altered my driving habits as I always have left an enormous gap if I want to go above 70, but I think a lot of people on the roads need the shock factor of the above.
But it can work - in Germany I feel entirely safe above 100 as on the whole appropriate gaps are left and drivers are more aware.

Not long back from Sicily and driving there is VERY different to here - but because everyone's on pretty much the same wavelength, it's not a problem.

cougar - Doing 75 on an empty motorway, not so much

I go no faster than I can see and stop in and never assume that the road is clear.

You need to be able to stop in about half the distance you can see to be clear. If you don't, one day you'll be confronted with a vehicle traveling on the wrong side of the road because it's going round a cyclist/horse/parked car, overtaking or whatever.

As for left-foot braking, to be effective the brake balance needs setting up with a sufficient rear bias even with forward weight transfer and it needs hours of practice on closed roads with plenty of run off before it makes you any quicker. The car it was most use in was my group N Samba rally on very loose stages. It had very little torque and was kept at 4500 - 7000 rpm. On tarmac I used the technique sparingly as it made marginal brakes even more marginal. I never drive fast enough on public roads for the technique to be of any use whatsoever, it's used for changing the attitude of a car that's already drifting - incompatible with sharing the road with others.

[img] [/img]

From the attitude of the car I was left-foot braking in this pic - Circuit of Ireland = closed road.

Some of you might need to watch this:

Good point about Sicilian driving, in fact other countries and cultures attitudes to driving in general.

Niece in New Zealand says most drive bumper to bumper, and fast as due to roads being crap and it takes an age to get anywhere... but they all do it and traffic flows "quite" well... she says.

Anyone driven in Dheli ?? 😯

The balance and poise achieved through correct use of left foot braking is sublime, and yes it's a technique that takes time to learn but it use when 'pressing on' cannot be ignored.

Edukator- it looks like you're under steering into a ditch

but it use when 'pressing on' cannot be ignored

Couldn't disagree more. Public roads aren't the place to press on. And just "pressing on" you aren't gong to reach the slip angles where left-foot braking makes any difference to trajectory.

You do realise that on road tyres there isn't the progressive increase in slip angles you get on competition compounds and if you left foot brake hard enough (if the braking balance to the rear allows you which in a modern car is unlikely) to neutralise understeer you're on a knife edge between neutral drift and spin - with people coming the other way. Mad, stupid, anti-social, murderous.

No I don't now but I did and I've been knocked off my bike a couple of times, none were because the car/truck was speeding.

This blinkered view that under the limit=safe and over=unsafe is ridiculous and dangerous.

I think you'll find that it's your view that is blinkered. Just because when YOU were knocked off and the reason wasn't speed, it doesn't mean that excessive speed (along with arrogance and impatience) isn't a danger to cyclists (and walkers and horses) on B roads.

without advanced driving techniques such as I have outlined you are doing nothing more than driving like sausages in family cars

"Advanced driving techniques" are for race tracks, rally stages, kart circuits... not public roads. There's no place for them on public roads, literally no place - as in not enough space. If you're going fast enough to need advanced techniques you're going too fast for the public road.

There are two important techniques on the road and there's nothing advanced about them: anticipation and observation. Add a large dose of caution, a measure of restraint, some tolerance and respect for the highway code. All within the ability of every road user.

Speed limits are a blunt tool. Sometimes too fast, sometimes too slow - though that can depend on person, their state (tired etc), the car, the weather, traffic conditions, time of day, visibility etc.

I'll admit it - I speed. Empty motorway or a nice open A road...
I often drive far below the limit too.

However, I do drive an MX5 so generally I feel like I'm speeding, when I'm not.
I do like to stick to 60 round an A road corner though.

This thread is about flouting the rules, once a rule's broken then 'in for a penny, in for a pound' or 'better to be hung for a lion as a lamb' or 'a rolling stone gathers no moss' take your pick.

I'm off to do a handbrake turn

giantalkali - Member

without advanced driving techniques such as I have outlined you are doing nothing more than driving like sausages in family cars

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the type of bellend that causes accidents.

You've probably read about "left foot braking" and had a go at using your left foot to press the brake with zero understanding about what it does and why you would want to use it.

It's something I was shown on a track by a professional racing driver, before being told it's not something one would ever need to do on the road. I was taught to concentrate on rev-matching and heel-and-toeing when necessary, but H&T is not something I do generally - just when having a play so it remains second nature when needed.

Neither LFB or H&T are part of Advanced Driver Training.

Come back when you've passed your driving test Councilof1

I think you'll find that it's your view that is blinkered. Just because when YOU were knocked off and the reason wasn't speed, it doesn't mean that excessive speed (along with arrogance and impatience) isn't a danger to cyclists (and walkers and horses) on B roads.

Pfft. Go out on a 60mph road and get hit by a car doing 50 and then by a car doing 70 and tell me if you feel the difference.

Yeah I'm being flippant but you completely ignored the bit about driving safely. Slow driving is not automatically safe driving. Fast driving is not automatically dangerous driving. There is an optimum given speed for every scenario but there is only one standard of driving for all of them and that is safe driving.

I've driven, I would estimate, 250k miles in my life and have never had any sort of ticket or fine etc. Although I've been involved in collisions (one of which maimed my wife for life) I have never been at fault or held liable for any damages. That is not proof of anything and I'm certainly not trying to "show off" but it does rather conflict with your implication of a habit of excessive speed, arrogance and impatience doesn't it?

This thread is about flouting the rules, once a rule's broken then 'in for a penny, in for a pound' or 'better to be hung for a lion as a lamb' or 'a rolling stone gathers no moss' take your pick.

Oh dear.

Lots of handbrake turns, no rules broken:

councilof10 - Member

Neither LFB or H&T are part of Advanced Driver Training.

Neither are engine braking or speeding, which you'd know if you'd done the IAM course.
😀
The fantasist is easy to spot.
See also anyone that equates "making progress" with speeding.

Is there any other facet of life that makes people so indignant about their right to ignore the law?

Give it another 20yrs and speeding will be viewed in the tsame way drink-driving now is.

Hopefully in twenty years time every car will have its speed limited by a limiter tied to a GPS data base. I'd vote for it today.

Hopefully in twenty years we will have driver training and testing which is worth a damn. No, people can't be forced to drive well but teaching them how to do so in the first place would be be a good start. The current driving test is a joke.

I know I can be better which is why I'm going to do advanced training, I'm just ashamed it's taken me nearly 20 years to do it.

Hopefully in twenty years private ownership of cars will be restricted

sbob - Member

Neither are engine braking or speeding, which you'd know if you'd done the IAM course.

Engine braking is covered in the standard driving test. 🙄

I know I can be better which is why I'm going to do advanced training, I'm just ashamed it's taken me nearly 20 years to do it.

You'll really enjoy it, never too late to change habits.

This place never fails to amaze me. Most people are given a driving licence after very rudimentary training, and never feel the need to undergo any other training. VERY few motorists have even had practical tuition on motorways.

And then when someone like myself seeks further training (I thought it would be very useful for my job at the time, which it was), I get ridiculed by people who might only have had a dozen or so driving lessons!

councilof10 - Member

Engine braking is covered in the standard driving test.

Correct, except you're taught not to do it. 😆

Brakes to slow, gears to go.

One might select a low gear when faced with a steep downhill gradient, but then that's maintaining a low speed, not braking down to one.

You've probably read about "left foot braking" and had a go at using your left foot to press the brake with zero understanding about what it does and why you would want to use it.

"Advanced driving techniques" are for race tracks, rally stages, kart circuits... not public roads. There's no place for them on public roads, literally no place - as in not enough space. If you're going fast enough to need advanced techniques you're going too fast for the public road.

There are two important techniques on the road and there's nothing advanced about them: anticipation and observation. Add a large dose of caution, a measure of restraint, some tolerance and respect for the highway code. All within the ability of every road user.

I agree totally with everything you've just said there, other than the final sentence.

About the only reason I can see to be even mentioning heel-and-toe or left-foot braking on a discussion about road driving is to boost the size of your e-peen. Honestly, it'll be double declutching next. 🙄 Both "have their uses" sure, but in extraordinary circumstances such as using h&t to get you home after your clutch cable snaps.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the type of bellend that causes accidents.

I'd filed it under "do not feed the troll" TBH. He's made several out-of-context remarks trying to get a bite now.

There are two important techniques on the road and there's nothing advanced about them: anticipation and observation. Add a large dose of caution, a measure of restraint, some tolerance and respect for the highway code. All within the ability of every road user.

Thank you. If only more people thought this way. A car is a huge weight that can travel very, very fast. A large percentage of people should treat them with way more respect than they do.

Correct, except you're taught not to do it.

Brakes to slow, gears to go.

One might select a low gear when faced with a steep downhill gradient, but then that's maintaining a low speed, not braking down to one.

Indeed. Back when I passed my test in 1990, I believe that being taught to block change when decelerating rather than going down through the gears individually was a relatively new introduction. I do a bit of both depending on the situation.

As Bob and CZ have said, engine braking is good for maintaining a speed. In a modern car engine braking is of nominal practical use when coming to a stop. ABS > drum brakes.

Going down an incline (well, a decline I suppose, but that sounds weird), I like to see how far I can travel without touching the brakes whilst watching the car in front's brake lights flashing on and off like hazard indicators.

Correct, except you're taught not to do it.

Brakes to slow, gears to go.

You're made aware of it and its effects are explained.

But, you're moving away from why I mentioned engine braking and suggesting that I'm extolling its virtues as a way of controlling speed instead of brakes - I'm not.

If you look back at why I raised the issue of engine braking, it was with regard to cruise control...

If you're traveling at 70mph on a motorway and the car in front brakes hard, assuming you're NOT using cruise control, the slowing of your own vehicle begins the instant you lift off. So by the time you've taken Mr Foot off Mr Throttle and put it on Mr Brake Pedal*, your car has already begun to decelerate, possibly buying you precious meters of braking distance.

*Reference to a very old joke about being pulled over by a Welsh Police Officer

There is research regarding the percentage of drivers who think that they are above the average. In a number of studies it is usually shown to be between 73% and 90%
I don't rate my own driving above competent and mostly safe, the advanced training I had was decades ago, and most of that concentrated on observation and caution.
Training can of course improve performance but it could also lead to illusory superiority.

regarding ACC, insurance companies appear to believe that it reduces the risk of collisions, certainly when combined with low speed urban anti collision software, as it has reduced the insurance premiums for vehicles fitted with it, mine included. however, like any aid, people need to be aware of the limitations and not rely on it.

you're moving away from why I mentioned engine braking

I'm just wondering why someone who purports to be an advanced driver would repeatedly use terms in a manner that advanced training specifically rejects.

Making progress ? speeding.
Decelerating ? engine braking.

Just an observation. I've been trained to do that. 🙂

Making progress ? speeding.
Decelerating ? engine braking.

Just an observation. I've been trained to do that.

What on earth are you talking about???

Is this another case of:

Cougar - Moderator
I'd filed it under "do not feed the troll" TBH.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm saying you sound nothing like an advanced driver.
I've pointed out why.
Calling me a troll rather than refuting what I've said only serves to confirm my suspicions.

If you're traveling at 70mph on a motorway and the car in front brakes hard, assuming you're NOT using cruise control, the slowing of your own vehicle begins the instant you lift off. So by the time you've taken Mr Foot off Mr Throttle and put it on Mr Brake Pedal*, your car has already begun to decelerate, possibly buying you precious meters of braking distance.

So you're against cruise control because you're driving too close to the car in front?

There is research regarding the percentage of drivers who think that they are above the average. In a number of studies it is usually shown to be between 73% and 90%

Wouldn't surprise me. Many people either don't know they're [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence ]incompetent[/url] or wouldn't admit to it when asked.

I'd consider myself to be an above-average driver, not because I'm some driving god*, but because the average driver is bloody awful. It's a low bar.

(* - though I am, obvs)

Going down an incline (well, a decline I suppose, but that sounds weird), I like to see how far I can travel without touching the brakes whilst watching the car in front's brake lights flashing on and off like hazard indicators

This and slowing down to hit a speed change (say 50 to 30) without touching the brakes are two of the small pleasures I still get from driving. Very sad, but when my bonnet passes the 30 sign and the car has just hit 30, nod of the head, small smirk and fist pump 🙂 it's even better if the person in front of you has just slammed the brakes on in order to slow enough

In a similar vein,

Approaching a red traffic light on an incline, I sometimes like to gauge my speed and then push the clutch in to try to land on the white line without needing to touch the brake or reengage the transmission.

So you're against cruise control because you're driving too close to the car in front?

Don't you start! 🙄

I use H&T and the occasional double declutch in normal everyday driving, without ever driving like a bellend Mansell wannabe. 🙂

Edukator - Reformed Troll
"Advanced driving techniques" are for race tracks, rally stages, kart circuits... not public roads. There's no place for them on public roads, literally no place - as in not enough space. If you're going fast enough to need advanced techniques you're going too fast for the public road.

There are two important techniques on the road and there's nothing advanced about them: anticipation and observation. Add a large dose of caution, a measure of restraint, some tolerance and respect for the highway code. All within the ability of every road user.

+ lots.
End of thread.

And yet it continues

I slowed down after passing my young children out through the broken windows of our overturned car, after a tyre blow out. Its when it all goes wrong you realise how fragile life really is. Plenty of heroes told me afterwards what they'd have done etc, but in reality you cling on for dear life.
These days I get where I'm going with a lot less stress. I try to ignore what others are doing wrong, it just winds folk up.

The inappropriate use of speed in dangerous situations pisses me off though, near Schools, Town Centres, Housing Estates etc. They could stick a speed camera on every lampost for me.

They could stick a speed camera on every lampost for me.

Again, speed is not the cause of bad driving. The driver that overtook me on a blind bend this morning wasn't speeding but it was as close to an accident you can get without actually having one.
Would have preferred for him to wait and then overtake me after the corner even if he was speeding to overtake....

Again, speed is not the cause of bad driving. 

Again, speed is not the cause of bad driving.

The desire for speed, and the frustration of some drivers who aren't achieving it, can be the root cause of plenty of bad driving IME. It is quite possible to be safe while you're 'making progress', but there are quite a few drivers whose lack of patience and feelings of entitlement means they'll risk themselves and others to get there.

Modern cars are so cushioned people don't realise how fast they are going.
Some people never walk or cycle anywhere, so they have no experience of seeing it from another perspective.
But the main reason is, a lot of drivers are tosspots.
Compulsory self-driving cars can't come soon enough.

Again, speed is not the cause of bad driving.

Nope, but it can make the outcome of any incident a hell of a lot worse for all involved. Consequences of speed innit

I had a complete dick the other day indicate and pull out on me [i]while I was actually overtaking and alongside![/i]
He was driving a T5 behind a truck, I was coming up behind him in the middle lane with faster traffic approaching from behind in the outside lane. As I got about a third of the way past he just stuck his indicator on and pulled out! I hit the horn and the brakes, fortunately there wasn't anyone close behind and shitforbrains just carried on past the truck. As I went past him after he pulled back in I looked across and he just had a smug grin on his face!
Unbelievably bad driving, seems that having a posh van gave him a sense of entitlement with its own postcode.
At the time I had the cruise control set to give me a steady 70mph, consistent with the prevailing traffic and weather conditions.
Just thinking about it makes me tense up again. 👿

At the time I had the cruise control set to give me a steady 70mph, consistent with the prevailing traffic and weather conditions.

If you hadn't been using cruise control, you would have been able to react quicker. 😉

top trolling shib 🙄

[quote=Cougar ]About the only reason I can see to be even mentioning heel-and-toe or left-foot braking on a discussion about road driving is to boost the size of your e-peen. Honestly, it'll be double declutching next. Both "have their uses" sure, but in extraordinary circumstances such as using h&t to get you home after your clutch cable snaps.

You're surely better off left foot braking then h&ting in that case 😉

I know it's the law so there's no excuse for speeding but personally I tend to speed from time to time. Always on motorways or dual carriageway A roads and when conditions allow (lack of traffic, good weather/visibility). Not saying I'm right to speed but to me going 80-90 isn't unsafe (if I had a blow-out I doubt there would be much difference in the outcome). That said I am booked on a speed awareness course in October so 'getting caught' was a bit of a wake up call and I'm trying to stay at 70 now...

I'm sure some people view it as just as bad as someone doing 60 past through a school 20 zone but I don't...

top trolling shib

Self-confessed. Probably hasn't even got a driving licence. 😀

I used to love this place... I'd stroll into a debate, drop one of my trademark slightly fascist or intolerant "thread bombs" and watch the liberals running round like headless chucks trying out out-do one another in the mock indignation stakes.

Now the liberals have cottoned on to my little game, and I'm not sure I like it!

Funny how some dimwits feel that they are more clever than the people who put the limits up or stick to them. To say that you are clever enough not to be a danger misses the point somewhat. The law says you don't speed. End of story.
To go out to have fun on the roads is also rather nasty at best. Have fun where there is no potential to hurt others.
Might I add that this response is at least a million times wound back from my actual feelings.
I fail to see why speed cameras are not more common. As said, one on every limit sign with a no options decent* fine attached would soon pay for them.
* Needs to be 4 digits before any decimal points. Driving bans as well . This would have the benefit of removing the crap drivers from the road thus reducing stupidity and numbers.
Being an awkward sod I take great pleasure in doing my best to piss off those who feel speeding is acceptable.

Funny how some dimwits feel that they are more clever than the people who put the limits up or stick to them. To say that you are clever enough not to be a danger misses the point somewhat. The law says you don't speed. End of story.

Being an awkward sod I take great pleasure in doing my best to piss off those who feel speeding is acceptable.

You seem to like picking and choosing which laws you follow... as you obviously have no problem with dangerous driving.

Funny how some dimwits feel that they are more clever than the people who put the limits up or stick to them.

What's to be clever ???
I've driven through miles and miles of 50 mph on the motorway with some warning that is just wrong... workers in the road who went home 6 hours earlier but none bothered to switch the speed limit ?
Bends saying Max 40 mph that a modern car can easily take a double that in fair weather and legal tyres... but is 40 mph just in case I'm pulling a caravan on a 2CV ???

How about the dimwits who's idea of speed limits is to stick a NSL right before a single car only bridge with a right angle??? Should I base my driving on whomever put this sign up having any sense whatsoever ..

The law says you don't speed. End of story.

Minister for Cycling Robert Goodwill has reiterated that the official line from the Department for Transport (DfT) is that cyclists may ride on the footway – more commonly referred to as pavements – provided they do so considerately, and that police officers need to exercise discretion.

For years it was illegal to use effective working lights on bikes... and its still illegal to ride after lighting up time without pedal reflectors even now it's legal to use effective (modern) lighting.

It's legal to take a 4 yr old and cycle down the NSL bypass but illegal for them to ride on a pavement... obviously some common sense is required.

Being an awkward sod I take great pleasure in doing my best to piss off those who feel speeding is acceptable.

This is why 20mph zones aren't typically enforced with cameras the reasoning being "it only takes one civic minded driver to enforce the limit as there's generally no where to overtake".

How about the dimwits who's idea of speed limits is to stick a NSL right before a single car only bridge with a right angle??? Should I base my driving on whomever put this sign up having any sense whatsoever ..

They're legally obliged to put a NSL where there is an NSL road. It's the law! PS - The sign doesn't mean you have to drive at the limit, it's a maximum...

If you want the law changed then have a go at the lawmakers, not those who comply with it as it currently stands. The law doesn't allow for "common sense"* within these circumstances.

* Whatever that is.

To go out to have fun on the roads is also rather nasty at best.

You'd better go and tell that to the marketing departments of almost every motor manufacturer...

🙄

You'd better go and tell that to the marketing departments of almost every motor manufacturer...

Haven't you noticed? All of their roads are traffic free...

And we all drive around remotest Scotland or Spain.

They're legally obliged to put a NSL where there is an NSL road. It's the law!

PS - The sign doesn't mean you have to drive at the limit, it's a maximum...

Here's one example... from a 30 mph (and prior to that 20 mph 1/4 mile into Clitheroe)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.8807771,-2.3985689,3a,75y,304.68h,66.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8-tW5iDw63HAEoCTZytVQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The bus stop is placed where another bus can't even get across the bridge... the NSL starts just before the bridge.. so a set of people have all decided his is "safe" ....??? Seriously what not move the NSL not only across the bridge but to the top of the blind bend? You can't even stop legally because of the bus stop ...by the time you can see the traffic approaching the bridge you're into the bus stop ..

It's just one example ... but if we are expected to actually think there is a reason other than a random assignment to speed limits they need to actually THINK

Like here for example: (Only a couple of miles away) .. the 30 starts before the blind bend
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.8949226,-2.3989518,3a,75y,191.66h,74.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su6c_y_0Y-Hiwn8Tow10K3Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If you want the law changed then have a go at the lawmakers, not those who comply with it as it currently stands. The law doesn't allow for "common sense"* within these circumstances.

* Whatever that is.

What I mean is deciding where the NSL starts ...

Ah! Okay, fair do's. I don't know what the local government set up is in either of your locations, but it could simply be that one District Council (or possibly police force as they have a say too) wanted the speed limit and another didn't and the point where it changes is at the border between the two. Not unusual to have these things happen.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective) the law in Britain tends to be quite democratic and loads of people get to have a say, including members of the public and pressure groups, so these scenarios crop up quite regularly throughout local authorities* wherever there are borders.

* The same applies to the NHS with the fabled postcode lotteries.

The bus stop situation could again be local issue. Bus companies use different vehicles with different requirements, not to mention the need to be x-distance from other bus stops, and y-number of stops per z-population etc.

Ah! Okay, fair do's. I don't know what the local government set up is in either of your locations, but it could simply be that one District Council (or possibly police force as they have a say too) wanted the speed limit and another didn't and the point where it changes is at the border between the two. Not unusual to have these things happen.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective) the law in Britain tends to be quite democratic and loads of people get to have a say, including members of the public and pressure groups, so these scenarios crop up quite regularly throughout local authorities* wherever there are borders.

* The same applies to the NHS with the fabled postcode lotteries.

The bus stop situation could again be local issue. Bus companies use different vehicles with different requirements, not to mention the need to be x-distance from other bus stops, and y-number of stops per z-population etc.

As far as I know these are both the same council, police and bus route...
In this case I'm actually saying it should be slower if provides any sort of guide as to what's safe or not based on conditions ahead you can't see .... the thinking just isn't joined up...

But my point is that it can be equally non-joined up in the other direction as well.

Last time I drive there I must have gone 60+ miles in a restricted 50 mph but not a single person was working... I usually try an follow restrictions but when they are just randomly put in I start questioning that... A few weeks ago we had some "pedestrians reported on motorway" restriction... again for 50+ miles... It's not so much that I didn't see any pedestrians but the non-logic they would have walked 50+ miles and several motorway junctions... Human nature being what it is I'd like to see my journey is delayed for a good reason not just laziness... at the time I had a kid asking me why we were going so slowly and me trying to explain... an hour later I had to admit defeat at say it was for no reason at all...
(And it was less about the actual journey time than arriving in good time to set up the tent before dark)

The same thing goes for the cycling on pavements or lighting up... we have the Minster responsible saying if people feel unsafe they should carefully and considerately move onto the pavement but if this is what democracy wants then why does the law still say its illegal for a 3 yr old to ride on the pavement...

My perspective on this... is policy making needs to change.
We have a Minister for cycling and another for Transport... both advising breaking the law..

Surely [u]they[/u] should be putting forwards changes to the law instead of encouraging people to break it...

If you want the law changed then have a go at the lawmakers, not those who comply with it as it currently stands.

I'm not having a go at complying with the law I'm having a go at people who think it is their job to enforce it whilst breaking another one they selectively decide to ignore.

I discovered another poorly thought out new legislation that it's apparently illegal to use the emergency stop areas on the new smart motorways to use a mobile phone... yet some guidance say's to get out of the right hand door and use the provided phone whilst others say to use your mobile to call the highways agency. Surely if they wish to stop people using the phone in them the law should be clear and state you can only dial the highways agency or police in an emergency... and it's still illegal unless the phone is in a holder... equally you can't take a pee... no matter how dangerous you feel it is continuing driving ... I suppose you can just pee in your seat but really ???

It just seems somehow too much hassle to get the wording correct... and write this correctly and accurately. Frankly I think the whole thing doing away with hard shoulders is a bit scary and going to lead to deaths...

My perspective on this... is policy making needs to change.

Welcome to my professional world.

Welcome to my professional world.

So serious question....
Don't you think when you have the responsible government Ministers disagree with the law in their specific area they should be the primary ones to be leading this?

Don't get me wrong I'd be happy to support a change but if the Ministers all think it's too much trouble at MP's can't be bothered to read the legislation and turn up and vote then what can I change????

Just the bus example ... it seems to me that EVERYTHING ELSE aside (like distance from last stop) the over riding consideration should be safety.... if the bus company are having rules quoted at them I can't see them wanting to have a bus stop in a dangerous place nor the drivers who are stopped there as a bus or truck comes over the bridge...

You'd think looking at the NSL/Bus stop/Bridge that whoever decided this combo was a good idea has departed reality... except I'm guessing none did it was just different organisations with different agendas all contributing and none with over riding authority to simply say "FFS no" but likely it will take a death before questions are asked but you only need to look a it to see it has a lot of potential for disaster...

We can either have laws which people submit to without questioning or through enforcement OR we can have laws people understand and go along with because they make sense. (In general) Right now it seems most people including the ones elected to actually vote on Acts don't even know what the acts are or how changing one is going to affect another existing one.

To me when I see stuff that patently doesn't make sense or where ministers disagree it doesn't encourage me to blindly follow everything.

Minister may well be responsible for the National Speed Limit, but local limits are set by Traffic Authorities -
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/setting-local-speed-limits ]Setting local speed limits[/url]

So serious question....
Don't you think when you have the responsible government Ministers disagree with the law in their specific area they should be the primary ones to be leading this?

Of course, that is their job after all. Ultimately though it is up to us to make our views known to them though, and if they don't do what we want to vote them out. The problem is, one or half a dozen people can't do this, you need a sizeable number of people.

<snipped for the sake of saving space>

I don't really disagree with anything you have written, I was trying to explain how these situations can arise within the legal and planning system that operates within this country. I suppose the clichéd answer is that "Well, it works most of the time" and to be fair it does, though that doesn't mean that on occasions there are problems.

I don't know what the answer is, other than a wholesale rewriting of the systems in place and legislation itself, I guess some would argue that dismantling this and putting a better system in place isn't worth the time/effort compared to other problems that MPs are dealing with (Brexit, the Economy, WW3 etc.).

To be honest, I've been in this system too long, I'm apathetic and would love to get out so I'm probably the wrong person to be commenting!

On double declutching ( I have only glanced at this thread) When I did the driving assessment for a paramedic job they wanted me to demonstrate double declutching

Is that where you have to prise the hands of the patient off your throat as you try to treat them?

🙂