I've seen this topic before, I'm getting popcorn and biscuits.
That's not the situation that was being discussed. They are indeed when you should be paying most attention, and i'm a particular fan of the new(ish) flashing 20 limit around school start/end times.Anyone who isn't paying the most attention when 'pootling' through housing estates and past schools and shops, needs to have a word with themselves. That's the least relaxed I am in a car!
It's when you are on some random B road and being forced to do 40 when there's no hazards other than the odd pheasant that would warrant doing a lower speed than 75.
Overall, speed limits need reviewing in many situations. A lot of urban speed limits need reducing, and a lot of other limits need increasing.
Cars becoming more capable making old speed limits obsolete.
This is my major bugbear TBH. When the 70mph limit was introduced in the '60s, the average speed of motorists was around 50mph. The introduction of the limit actually made people drive faster.
The 30mph limit was introduced in the 1930s, when cars looked like this.
[img] 
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Totally going to out-brake my BMW, that is. Yet since then, "thinking time" for braking has gone up (probably due to people fannying about with their stereo / sat nav / phone / feral child). Whether that has had a net effect on stopping distances going up or down I'm not sure - point is though, they were set based on available data in the 1930s and never reviewed. How appropriate are they to today's motoring? (And, can we have a crackdown on drivers not paying attention please?)
As for IAM, followed one through Ilkley in his big 4x4 yesterday. I think he should have handed his licence back about 10 years ago.
How did you know he had an advanced motoring qualification?
roll on self driving cars, because once they become established all cars will have limiters.
oads that used to be national, now 40 or 50. I didnt die 20 years ago when they were national, I have no intention of slowing down on them now.
How many did die? And continue to die because of people thinking the law doesn't apply to them?
Mwhahaha, this is going well.
Various posts along the lines of
I don't think people think it's not wrong, just don't pay enough attention to it.
What about all the people who moan about speed cameras (including the Mail et al)? Best way to not give money to the council for speeding would be to... not speed?
I wonder if there is a trend to rip out single speed cameras and replace them with average speed zones.
That's not the situation that was being discussed.
My post was in response to Shib trolling away that he only crashes when he's in heavy slow-moving traffic because he's not paying attention.
Put me in a line of traffic dawdling along at 25mph and I just become another zombie, far more likely to be saying "Sorry mate, I didn't see you"...
The fact that he gets bored and doesn't pay attention when he should be paying the most attention suggests he's due an IAM refresher course. Perhaps they'll give him a new sticker for the rear window.
IAM Advanced Driver would be a good start, former motoring editor with experience driving all major performance marques would help too.
Wouldn't the latter damage the good done by the former?
😉
My post was in response to Shib trolling away
Are you so lacking in intellect that the only way you feel you can gain the upper hand in a debate is to accuse me of trolling???
Not a lot to moan about with most fixed position cameras. If you can't notice them then you shouldn't have been going that fast.What about all the people who moan about speed cameras (including the Mail et al)? Best way to not give money to the council for speeding would be to... not speed?
However some are placed in the only overtaking spot for miles and miles which rather than making the roads safer just makes irritable drivers as they are bottled up behind P-Jays 83yr old Morris Minor driver doing a top speed of 40 for another 20 mins.
I tend to agree, but for the opposite reason, it'll bring up the speed of the slower cars on the roads to a sensible level.roll on self driving cars, because once they become established all cars will have limiters.
Speed? Whenever I drive these days I'm lucky to get to half the limit.
Okay, //snipped the middle as it was a long post
//
Been driving 20 years, had 3 points in all that time, probably speed most weeks.
no mention of vulnerable road users or pedestrians and the difference in collision survival rates at 20mph -30/40 and 60mph
its all about YOU. which sums up a lot of car drivers, they are narcissists in their own little tin bubble.
what surprises me is how many car jocks there are on a cycling forum. love speed? take it to the track where you are only a danger to yourself not others.
^^^this
only way you feel you can gain the upper hand in a debate
The fact you see it as a competitive sport reveals more about your motives than any of your actual 'contributions'.
Wouldn't the latter damage the good done by the former?
Ha, only if I was a Top Gear presenter! I was editor for a publishing company that produced magazines for the UK largest prestige car dealers in the noughties. They own the largest group of Aston Martin dealerships as well as Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, Jag, BM, Audi etc. I was lucky enough to attend regular launches, track days etc where you'd be encouraged to "make progress" in the latest model, usually with a well-know touring car driver in the passenger seat. I learnt far more on those days than any driving course.
It was at the time AM phased out DB9 and launched the vert/horiz platform, so often got to play in some very lovely vehicles including the Vanquish S - still my personal favourite.
Our content was syndicated to other publishers so there was a wide variety of cars to test/photograph. I was once given a Bentley Arnage Red Label for 3 days, but it cost so much to fill up, it spent most of the time parked outside the terraced house I had at the time!
However some are placed in the only overtaking spot for miles and miles which rather than making the roads safer just makes irritable drivers as they are bottled up behind P-Jays 83yr old Morris Minor driver doing a top speed of 40 for another 20 mins.
maybe the only overtaking spot for miles and miles might also be an accident blackspot from frustrated drivers making poor decisions?
I think urban speed limits should be dropped to 20mph
It already is where I live. But as it's not enforced, it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot.
Possible, but unlikely imo, just revenue generators. They even feature commonly on crawler lanes etc, which is as stupid as stupid gets.maybe the only overtaking spot for miles and miles might also be an accident blackspot from frustrated drivers making poor decisions?
I think urban speed limits should be dropped to 20mph
It already is where I live. But as it's not enforced, it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot.
Not to be callous, but it will make a difference to the chance of prosecution when somebody is injured / killed.
"Ah" they'll say reaction times haven’t changed (which isn't actually true, modern life as made us all a little quicker to the draw than our parents and grandparents but that's not important)
The opposite is true for a lot of drivers - far more distractions on the road, and making cars easier to drive means that they demand less attention and focus.
camera these days are put where they're put for good reason, they're not mindless revenue grabbers so if you're caught by one, then you deserve it.
Hard to argue with that. If you get caught by a bright yellow box, you're exceeding the speed limit [i]and[/i] not paying attention, which is a lethal combination.
i'm a particular fan of the new(ish) flashing 20 limit around school start/end times.
Yep, agreed. Makes far more sense than permanent reductions. Going past a school at 8:30am, 20mph is arguably too fast. At 3am though, it's a nonsensical limit.
roll on self driving cars, because once they become established all cars will have limiters.
Two pages, standards are slipping.
the only way you feel you can gain the upper hand in a debate is to accuse me of trolling???
To be fair, it's a bit like the boy who cried wolf. If you're being accused of trolling when you're not doing so, you've only got yourself to blame.
Roads that used to be national, now 40 or 50. I didnt die 20 years ago when they were national, I have no intention of slowing down on them now.
Pillock. We also didn't wear seatbelts, had drum brakes and flimsy cars. Things have improved.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @52.3154822,-2.8609992,3a,75y,1.87h,75.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1susmuBSkv7rbwDbrZSvr8lQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656]This used to be NSL when I was a kid.[/url] And someone did in fact die IIRC.
Cougar - ModeratorYep, agreed. Makes far more sense than permanent reductions. Going past a school at 8:30am, 20mph is arguably too fast. At 3am though, it's a nonsensical limit.
why is it always 3am when we hypothetically drive past schools?
anyway, let's pretend that it *is* 3am, the number of people driving is very small, the number of people trying to sleep nearby is very high. The number of people who'd benefit from a higher limit is very small, the number of people who benefit from a reduced limit is very high. Traffic noise is most definitely a form of pollution.
[s]Because they want to get where they are going more quickly.[/s] Because they didn't allow enough time for their journey
FTFY
Cars becoming more capable making old speed limits obsolete.
But the drivers...
Works both ways.This used to be NSL when I was a kid. And someone did in fact die IIRC.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @56.4200501,-2.918535,3a,75y,166.32h,103.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scCQtEUEpTwR2cB3W2xO_bQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en]This used to be NSL when I was a kid.[/url] no-one did in fact die IIRC.
We live on a residential road that is a through road from the bypass to town centre, it's there to allow farm access as the bypass cut the road in two but it's 99.9% cars using it. Our section is few parked cars so idiots floor their car from the previous mini roadabout to the next corner, saving 1 second in 100 metres.
There is no need to drive more than 20mph on residential roads.
Totally going to out-brake my BMW, that is. Yet since then, "thinking time" for braking has gone up (probably due to people fannying about with their stereo / sat nav / phone / feral child). Whether that has had a net effect on stopping distances going up or down I'm not sure - point is though, they were set based on available data in the 1930s and never reviewed. How appropriate are they to today's motoring? (And, can we have a crackdown on drivers not paying attention please?)
Speaking from experience, braking distance doesn't matter around town. If you hit someone, there's a good chance you won't have time to react (or you would've swerved around them or stopped).
I've cycled round town a lot and only once actually collided with anyone with any force - didn't have time to touch the brakes, they ran out in between stationary traffic in a busy situation where I had been concerned a car was about to pull out on me so was concentrating on that and didn't see her until she was right out in the road.
Out of town there are justifications for speeding IMHO (I'm much more bothered about people not paying attention/passing too close than going past 10 or 20mph above the limit out of town). In town, during the day, absolutely none (and yet this is where more people speed).
We also didn't wear seatbelts, had drum brakes and flimsy cars. Things have improved.
Exactly, so time to increase the speed limits now we are all in safer cars.
There is too much obsession with speeding and not enough with crap driving. Everyone could drive faster than the limit if they drove correctly, i.e. not 4 inches behind each other, not pulling into gaps that don't exist on dual carriageways, not being in wrong lane on roundabout etc,.
+1000There is too much obsession with speeding and not enough with crap driving.
Speaking from experience, braking distance doesn't matter around town. If you hit someone, there's a good chance you won't have time to react
Because you are too close or going too fast?
fifeAndy that limit is to slow you om the approach to the built up area. It will help the slow of reaction to be in the vicinity of 30mph by the time they get to the junction just past the limit change. Has the town/village grown in the last 20 years? What's the accident stats like for that first part of the 30mph limit?
why is it always 3am when we hypothetically drive past schools?
Ok, 10pm then. Or any time when free range children aren't likely to be milling around outside school.
anyway, let's pretend that it *is* 3am, the number of people driving is very small, the number of people trying to sleep nearby is very high. The number of people who'd benefit from a higher limit is very small, the number of people who benefit from a reduced limit is very high. Traffic noise is most definitely a form of pollution.
There's a world of difference between driving and 30 and redlining your Scooby at 60mph.
If you hit someone, there's a good chance you won't have time to react
If you hit someone, you weren't driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions. (Assuming you're paying proper attention.)
...There's a world of difference between driving and 30 and redlining your Scooby at 60mph.
and there's a big difference between 20 and 30.
for the sake of keeping things unambiguous, which is when laws are at their best, a fixed limit makes sense to me.
with the added benefit of reducing road noise at 'quiet' times.
(speed limits are not *just* about safety. you could live next to a motorway, plenty of people do. it's very *safe*, but it's chuffing horrible - because of the noise)
Works both ways.This used to be NSL when I was a kid. no-one did in fact die IIRC.
Check out this website:
Looks like there was a few slight and one serious RTI, could've been an indicator that a fatal was just around the corner...
the classic **** driver mistake that driving fast around a track = being able to drive safely on public roads...I was lucky enough to attend regular launches, track days etc where you'd be encouraged to "make progress" in the latest model, usually with a well-know touring car driver in the passenger seat. I learnt far more on those days than any driving course.
...which by your own admission you are shit at, since driving on open roads is very easy whereas driving in traffic actually takes care/attention/patience none of which you have!This is my point Purist, I've never come close to making a mistake whilst making progress on open roads. I've come close and bruised bumpers several times in heavy traffic.
Exactly, so time to increase the speed limits now we are all in safer cars.
Well, all of us except those of us not in cars. Which is most of us.
There is too much obsession with speeding and not enough with crap driving.
The former is quantifiable, the latter somewhat subjective.
Exactly, so time to increase the speed limits now we are all in safer cars
speed limits will never increase. they can't if government policy is to reduce road deaths.
There's a world of difference between driving and 30 and redlining your Scooby at 60mph.
True, but tyre noise certainly becomes predominant at between 20 and 30mph. Something I only realised when I started using electric vehicles!
fifeAndy that limit is to slow you om the approach to the built up area. It will help the slow of reaction to be in the vicinity of 30mph by the time they get to the junction just past the limit change. Has the town/village grown in the last 20 years? What's the accident stats like for that first part of the 30mph limit?
There is no built up area (or 30 limit close by). I don't have accident stats (nor do I know where to find them), but in 30yrs, really not that many. Nothing has changed except the addition of the golf course maybe 15yrs ago.
The reality is that a 40 limit doesn't really make a huge difference as the road ultimately leads to StAndrews, and all traffic heading to StAndrews more or less always has a top speed of 40 anyway (why? who knows, its weird). But there really is no reason at all for a 40 limit to be imposed.
Most excellent link, cheersCheck out this website:
I've just got my first car with cruise control and take great pleasure in donning a trilby and setting it at 31mph in built up areas.
I'm not disagreeing as I don't know for certain, but if there's a vast difference between road noise at 20mph and 30mph sufficient to wake people sleeping behind their double-glazing I'd be very surprised.
Not to be callous, but it will make a difference to the chance of prosecution when somebody is injured / killed.
Yes, a slap on the wrist. I'm not going to put up the bunting.
I'm not disagreeing as I don't know for certain, but if there's a vast difference between road noise at 20mph and 30mph sufficient to wake people sleeping behind their double-glazing I'd be very surprised.
Fair do's.
It depends on other factors of course, like road surface, tyre materials, vehicle type. As well as engine notes, exhaust etc. Plus I suppose if the residents don't want to have their windows closed all the time that may need to be taken into account. Or maybe they can't afford double glazing, or live in a conservation area...
...my god I hate my work.
Haha!
This used to be NSL when I was a kid. no-one did in fact die IIRC.
So what, wait until people die before lowering the speed limit?
FFS.
This is why we need speed limits. Because people apparently really are that stupid.
The only downside to speed limits is that you get irritated. Well get over yourself, and the problem goes away.
Cougar - ModeratorI'm not disagreeing as I don't know for certain, but if there's a vast difference between road noise at 20mph and 30mph sufficient to wake people sleeping behind their double-glazing I'd be very surprised.
me too.
imho, there's a net balance of the human experience to consider here.
in the case of raising urban speed limits at night (near schools, whatever):
1 person (the driver) benefits slightly from a high(er) speed limit, hundreds/thousands of people are slightly inconvenienced by increased noise as the person in a car drives by.
all i'm trying to say, is that there's more benefit from speed limits than a simple reduction in crash statistics.
(let's pretend that somehow, cars were magically rendered incapable of killing/hurting people, speed limits would still have significant benefits)