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But ultimately the decision to say yes or no rests with the driver. "A big boy told me to do it" doesn't cut it.
So by that argument, no-one in these sorts of professions needs liability insurance, all they need to say is 'my advice was woefully inadequate / inaccurate but it's wholly their fault because they followed it'
That'll save a lot of money and court time, if it's that clear.
Similar discussions were held when I sat my smbla qualification with Rich/Cyclewise Lake District, it was our responsibility for those under our guidance
up until this thread I'd never heard about the incident.
That's some impressive stay-in-your-lanery to have completely missed all references to the crash, the cancelling of the BBC biggest revenue stream show, the initial compensation and the 'disfigured' return to public life of one of Britian's best known ex-sportsmen.
If I'm honest, I don't really care about speculating about who is to blame or who deserves compensation - life's too short for something not related to me- and what employers, lawyers, courts and insurance companies are for who actually know the full facts and the law. I'm just glad Flintoff has seemingly got his life back on track and doing something he loves and I hope this instructor/racing driver can move on too.
The accident did have a side benefit though - it stopped all those endless tiresome STW threads about how Top Gear was a tired formulaic programme and needs cancelling.
And I think the important thing to remember, is that the compensation claim isn't against FF so nobody (bar Cougar) is suggesting he is liable or at fault. The claim is against BBC Studios, so I assume the instructor believes they did something negligent that was significant in causing the crash.
So by that argument, no-one in these sorts of professions needs liability insurance, all they need to say is 'my advice was woefully inadequate / inaccurate but it's wholly their fault because they followed it'
So by that argument, drivers on the roads don't need insurance because they can blame their instructor for failing to tell them not to run people over.
Look. I really don't care, certainly not sufficiently to push back against a forum pile-on. I just think that if you're getting into a driver's seat then that carries a responsibility.
That 20/80 liability on the MTB instruction crash is an interesting one, compared to this. Because that was determined by the instructor giving the right instruction and advice, but failing to accurately assess / judge the rider's ability to do what they had been advised. If they had the ability to accurately follow the instruction, they wouldn't have crashed, lots of riders have ridden that obstacle before and since.
And so he's found 80% liable for the accident despite giving the 'right' instructions (OK, in this case right for this rider would have been don't do it, but you get the point)
Flintoff was presumably competent to drive the car round the corner, competent even to do that at speed as instructed by the instructor. The crash happened because the instructor got his instructions wrong. The insinuation is that anyone would have rolled the car at that speed and that line because the advice was wrong (maybe not everyone, true racing drivers with cat-like instincts and reflexes might have saved it and got away with a little skidmark)
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Also interesting on the MTB case, IIRC - and we discussed at length at the time in the context of disclaimers and grown-ups taking responsibility for their own safety on group rides that either have a formal leader, or are 'just some mates following another mate round a route' - the rider didn't really sue the instructor. IIUIC They as a solicitor were self-employed and had illness and injury income protection insurance that they had to sadly claim on - and the insurers felt there was a liability issue and as is the case in these types of policies, the policy owner has to effectively make the claim against the instructor as part of the small print of their policy to take relevant steps to minimise losses to the insurer, or some such, whether they want to or not.
A cautionary tale for those that say that they'd never sue a mate if they got injured on a mates ride....it might not be your decision if you want insurers to cover it.
I just think that if you're getting into a driver's seat then that carries a responsibility.
I agree.
How much, because you said FF (the driver) bears total responsibility which is the bit I said was bollocks, and still do.
That's some impressive stay-in-your-lanery to have completely missed all references to the crash, the cancelling of the BBC biggest revenue stream show, the initial compensation and the 'disfigured' return to public life of one of Britian's best known ex-sportsmen.
And yet, here we are. I couldn't tell you with confidence what sport he played. Was it cricket?
Correct. Every day's a school day.
And to double check....you've heard of "Top Gear"? 😉
So by that argument, drivers on the roads don't need insurance because they can blame their instructor for failing to tell them not to run people over.
A learner driver doesn't need insurance when being instructed (unless in their own car which, naturally, needs to be insured). Once they have passed their test, they need insurance to drive a car, and the instructor is no longer in charge of the vehicle so cannot be liable for any subsequent accidents they are involved in. I am not sure why I needed to explain that.
And yet, here we are. I couldn't tell you with confidence what sport he played. Was it cricket?
Nah, he was a gymnast
I won’t link but there’s an exclusive Sun interview on youtube with the passenger/Stig.
Its pretty grim listening.
Tiff Needall nearly rolled one
That was a different car. FF rolled a Super 3, the current model. I've driven one, admittedly not on a track, and I'm really quite surprised that it rolled - as was the instructor, clearly. The CofG is pretty low.
Bloody shame that Clarkson never wrapped himself round a tree and spared us his odious presence.
I haven't watched Top Gear in many years, despicable show glorifying crazy driving and ridiculous cars that are a total waste of natural resources (not to mention the peabrains that buy them).
Bloody shame that Clarkson never wrapped himself round a tree and spared us his odious presence.
I haven't watched Top Gear in many years, despicable show glorifying crazy driving and ridiculous cars that are a total waste of natural resources (not to mention the peabrains that buy them).
What is it about Top Gear threads that compels people to jump on a pontificate about how much they hate Top Gear, like some kind of badge of honour?
Besides, whilst I would previously been tempted to agree with you about Clarkson, his Clarksons Farm series really is first class.
That Stig interview was something else. Clearly the guy has a self preservation agenda but, if what he says is accurate, very poor form by BBC
poor form by BBC
Chris Harris eludes to that in interviews he’s done, as does Andy Wilman, except they’re coming from different angles, and at different times. Harris was very much a ‘you’ll kill someone if you aren’t careful’ voice, Wilman was more ‘leave us alone, we know we’re blagging it, but we’ve not had a big one, so must be doing something right.’
Saw an interesting interview with the instructor on YT that makes me a lot more sympathetic to his situation (albeit with a slight pinch of salt given that's just one side of the story).
Apparently he was there to drive/instruct on a Mclaren but that was broken or something so the producers got a Morgan in as a last minute replacement, the instructor apparently made it clear he didn't want anything to do with that as had never driven one before let alone instructed an amateur driver on how to. Supposedly there was an experienced driver on hand but they couldn't get hold of him on radio when the time came (sounds a bit odd) so they persuaded the instructor to do it after all along with earlier with assurances from the expert that you can't roll one unless you spin and apply opposite lock whilst going backwards.
What happened next is well documented, although the instructor also mentions Top Gear allowed Morgan to remove the car themselves for inspection rather than it go somewhere independent (he suspected something broke on the car) but I guess that's possibly normal unless there'd been a fatality with police involved?
the instructor also mentions Top Gear allowed Morgan to remove the car themselves for inspection rather than it go somewhere independent (he suspected something broke on the car) but I guess that's possibly normal unless there'd been a fatality with police involved?
Serious workplace accident is a HSE matter, I can't imagine they wouldn't be raising flags about that
The latest news about the instructor complaining about his payoff doesn’t make anyone look good. It shows the bbc massively overpaid Flintoff for a self inflicted crash. If the instructor was that worried he should have just said no but clearly the thought of future fees swayed in his mind. I don’t suppose flintoff has offered the instructor some of his overpaid payoff
Apparently he was there to drive/instruct on a Mclaren but that was broken or something so the producers got a Morgan in as a last minute replacement, the instructor apparently made it clear he didn't want anything to do with that as had never driven one before let alone instructed an amateur driver on how to.
Then he should have stuck to his guns on that. Every car I ever instructed on, I did complete familiarisation with first, even if that was going from a Golf GTi to a Fiesta XR2. That meant reading specs, then doing some laps by myself so I could asses if it was understeery, oversteery, lift off oversteery, whether the back end broke away suddenly or gradually, how it reacted to sudden changes of direction, what happened if it was understeering and you hit the brakes, how abrupt the ABS is (if it has it back then). Basically I needed to know what the car would do with every input so I could coach on it. If I wasn't able to do that I refused to coach. Even as a 25 year old there's no way I'd have got into a car with one wheel missing and tried to coach a driver without significant familiarisation and as for believing another driver as to whether or not it could roll, forget it.
As an instructor it's my life, my responsibility, my rules.
I knew Ben Collins (Stig no.2) a bit and I can't believe he was any different, although he did tend to learn new cars very quickly.
I've just watched the Sun interview.
The instructor had never driven the car, but on the 3rd lap told Freddie to not lift for the corner, so it rolled. WTF!
I can't think of any instructor I knew who would have done anything other than tell the producer to get stuffed.
TBH the line for the instructor should have been drawn when the use of helmets was ruled out while pushing hard in an open top car. The whole thing, including the limited medical support available on site, smacks of incompetence and lack of interest in safety.
Swapping helmets for flat cap in Flintoff's case smells like priority being given to Morgan's brand and marketing desires by producers who should have known better.
The attempt to blame someone who was basically put in the car to counterbalance it so Freddie could go a bit faster is not a good look.
Yeah, the more I read, the more I have disdain for the instructor.
