[Closed] Forget tuition fees, how expensive is Diesel now

SpokesCycles - Member

There does need to be a big shift for the whole nation and this isn't going to happen until public transport is cheaper. But public transport won't get cheaper until people use it more. I think we need someone more liberal than DC to make the first step, slash public transport prices and get bums on seats to lower the costs.

Err- many train routes are already running at, or near, capacity so unless you want to bus it everywhere....

In reference to Druidh's point-

It's not so much the work I want and the salary I want (and similarly, my mum and dad live in 1 place and work 45mins-1hr away in opposite directions- the same applies for my mum who was unemployed for a year) as the work I can get these days. I'm applying for jobs now and will go for the nearest one I can.

My mum applied for hundreds of jobs and took the first one offered- she applied for lots of jobs that said "you're too experienced". She'd not be able to do this job without her car.

I do agree with the principle of public transport, but it does just cost too much.

Nope - the beggers took the train away 😥

Just pulling sokescycles up really - for what he was doing public transport is cheaper as he has had to admit.

RAC costs - there is a nice misprint but has it 35 p per mile upwards.

Spokescycles - most public transport is significantly cheaper than the real cost of a car.

My old man drives a 1 hour commute each day- the car is the cheapest way and [b]it lets him live where he likes[/b] (in't country) and drive into the city.

See, choice. Not necessity.

There does need to be a big shift for the whole nation and this isn't going to happen until public transport is cheaper. But public transport won't get cheaper until people use it more. I think we need someone more liberal than DC to make the first step, slash public transport prices and get bums on seats to lower the costs.

Personally, I'd like to see a re-nationalisation of all rail and bus services (still bloody subsidised by the taxpayer anyway), and then further subsidised from revenue generated by making car ownership and non-essential travel more expensive by taxing it more heavily.

But yes, Car is King, so we're a long, long way off any decent solution really.

I think it's also true that the price of petrol and diesel needs to go higher. I like the idea of scrapping the Road Fund Licence and just having a tax on fuel usage.

Of course, I expect the left-wing ranties will come along any minute complaining that soon, only the wealthy will be able to afford to drive....

I worked for the same company for 22 years, but due to takeovers and re-structuring, found myself commuting a 140 mile round trip each day to Wolverhampton.

Once, someone actually had the audacity to suggest that I moved from the Derbyshire Dales to the West Midlands. I'll end my comments here due to the recent clamp down on swearing.

Err- many train routes are already running at, or near, capacity so unless you want to bus it everywhere....

There is that too. So there needs to be more money pumped into it in the first place. Which you won't get because people won't use it because of the price. Etc. Etc.

Quite happy with that Druidh - something I have said for ages. if fuel was £20 a gallon how long till 100+ mpg cars?

spokescycles - PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS CHEAPER THATN A CAR MOST ROUTES MOST TIMES

This is too civilised, can someone please say something outrageous so we can get back to normal?

Yer all a bunch of snobbish losers who wont get in a train in case you might have to meet a member of the lower classes.

That do spokescycles?

druidh - Member
I think it's also true that the price of petrol and diesel needs to go higher. I like the idea of scrapping the Road Fund Licence and just having a tax on fuel usage.

Of course, I expect the left-wing ranties will come along any minute complaining that soon, only the wealthy will be able to afford to drive....

No, no, no - I'm no lefty by any means, but do drive 35-40k a year for my own business. We are taxed on fuel enough already, hence the ridiculous prices. My fuel bill is approx £6k a year, which equates to nearly 7% of turnover - I don't think I need to be paying any more.

Despite personal interests, as stated earlier by someone - everything goes up in cost if transportation costs increase.

if fuel was £20 a gallon how long till 100+ mpg cars?

Yeah and 50+ mpg 40 tonne trucks that deliver your food.....

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - Member

No, no, no - I'm no lefty by any means, but do drive 35-40k a year for my own business. We are taxed on fuel enough already, hence the ridiculous prices. My fuel bill is approx £6k a year, which equates to nearly 7% of turnover - I don't think I need to be paying any more.

Just think for a moment what would happen if fuel became so expensive that those sort of mileages were unsustainable. Could it be that more local businesess would be able to complete more succesfully with larger, centralised organisations?

It's a bit obvious, but I reckon someone on here could do some good work with that.

I think views depend on where you live too. I've always lived in the countryside, except for 1 year when I lived in the city and biked everywhere, and this has, to an extent, meant dependence on cars because public transport simply wasn't frequent or near enough to be viable. Whereas for someone like Elfin or Teej living in a sprawling urban metropolis (!) it's seen as a bit superfluous.

Once, someone actually had the audacity to suggest that I moved from the Derbyshire Dales to the West Midlands. I'll end my comments here due to the recent clamp down on swearing.

Fair enough. That is unreasonable! 😆

Almost all car drivers will attempt to justify why they, in particular, [i]need[/i] their car. The worst ime tend to be the ones who live in London, have all amenities within walking distance, and a perfectly fgood public transport system quite close! They also tend not to be all that fit and healthy...

Truth is, that at least half, if not two thirds or even more, of all car owners could lose their cars and not be unduly affected. They might have to walk a bit more, or get on a bike, or something instead. Oh the Humanity...

Saw a woman a while ago, lives by me. Gets in her car, drives off. I walk to the local market (1/2 mile), see her parking up in the car park. Then see her again in the supermarket. Did me shopping, came home, to see her pull up. She gets out, then gets two small carrier baygs out of the boot. She's not disabled or owt.

Cars make people lazy. And selfish. Make that journey five, ten times more spensive, maybe she'll think twice. Sybarite.

Some lazy and selfish people buy cars.

Just think for a moment what would happen if fuel became so expensive that those sort of mileages were unsustainable. Could it be that more local businesess would be able to complete more succesfully with larger, centralised organisations?

Certain areas would become ghost towns, with not enough work per capita - the inability to travel strangulating businesses.

In my line of work, the industry is quite incestuous and although nationwide, you're never far away from someone you've encountered before. Could I not travel, then I could not sustain my business, regardless of how localised the 'organisation' of the industry became.

druidh - Member

Just think for a moment what would happen if fuel became so expensive that those sort of mileages were unsustainable. Could it be that more local businesess would be able to complete more succesfully with larger, centralised organisations?

And also commuting would become unsuatainable meaning local shops would again become viable and rural workers would be able to afford housing in rural areas.

As for your argument TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - all that happens is you need to put up prices as do all your competitors. You costs relative to your competitors remains the same, demand for your services remains the same, just pushes a bit on inflation. Your actual profitability remains unchanged.

You might get a more economical #vehicle as well.

the industry is quite incestuous

😀

As for your argument TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - all that happens is you need to put up prices as do all your competitors. You costs relative to your competitors remains the same, demand for your services remains the same, just pushes a bit on inflation. Your actual profitability remains unchanged.

You might get a more economical #vehicle as well.

druid was talking of costs so high that travelling was unsustainable, therefore localising business. Increasing my prices, or indeed customers increasing prices proportionately isn't as simple as black and white. My work is either ultimately funded by either Government in the form of road building/maintenance (already a reducing market), or developers funding section 38/278 works. It may have slipped your attention, but we're in a recession - in the last 2 years with my old company markup on cost was reduced from 25% to 2.5% just to win work - and we weren't winning enough at that. Overheads running at 20% of turnover soon saw the demise of that particular company.

As for a more economical vehicle - what would TJ suggest - a bike?

If all companies doing that work have the same increase in cost then there is no conmpetative disadvantage - and demand will remain the same. Or else its uneeded work.

Its the same as the minimum waggle - employers complained it would put them out of business buy raising costs - but as it applied to all employers then it remains a level playing field.

At the moment fuel is so cheap I am subsidising you.

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - Member

As for a more economical vehicle - what would TJ suggest - a bike?

Nah - the suggestion is that with vastly increased fuel costs, cars would have to become much more frugal with fuel.

What we [i]really[/i] need is an alternative source of fuel and a real drive to get it. From what I can tell of our oil resources (not reserves) we do have enough to keep going for a fair while, and it will take a very long time for it to become expensive enough for people to look at these alternatives seriously. Prices will keep rising in the meantime, but at a steady, relatively affordable, rate that will be countered by more economical cars.

When the cars are all hydrogen fuel cell then we're laughing, so this "local business" thing is, to my mind, not going to become a reality so your job is, on the centuries scale, safe STR.

Which I'm sure is a great comfort...

SpokesCycles - Member
What we really need is an alternative source of fuel and a real drive to get it. From what I can tell of our oil resources (not reserves) we do have enough to keep going for a fair while, and it will take a very long time for it to become expensive enough for people to look at these alternatives seriously. Prices will keep rising in the meantime, but at a steady, relatively affordable, rate that will be countered by more economical cars.

I reckon that those of us who can afford it are only doing our public duty by using as much petrol and diesel as we possibly can in order to incentivise society into developing alternatives.

druidh - Member

Not many trains going to and from Glentress of an evening these days TJ?

Druidh- I think you'd have to drill a hole in the Uglipla's fuel tank to use enough to genuinely speed up the process 😉

TandemJeremy - Member

Nope - the beggers took the train away

SpokesCycles - Member
Druidh- I think you'd have to drill a hole in the Uglipla's fuel tank to use enough to genuinely speed up the process

Watch this space....the bike van is on order and the fashionable convertible is next!

Now Mark's got the Bentley he's upped your wages has he?

I used to cycle everywhere for nothing, till I passed my test at the age of 36, never found NOT driving a problem. I had a bike. seriously though, Driving is SOOOOO physically convienient, just get in and go, no physical or real mental effort required, it's soo easy and comfortable. I gotta try harder not to use the car, not for the cash saving, but cos it's better for me.

I have two hats when it comes to this. When I am in the US I use my car to go everywhere, there is no alternative so the car is king. When I am in London it is public transport and bike 95% of the time as the car makes no sense at all.

Long distances in the UK are by car though as the rail services are just rediculously expensive. Compare them to the cost and service offered by the Swiss and French railways, there is still a long way to go. I take the Eurostar from London to Paris for £60 return yet London to Manchester costs £110 return!!

When you can get a family sized car that does 72mpg it seems pretty rubbish for a scooter

As someone else said [u]CLAIMS 72mpg.[/u] On the motorway. at 56mph. On diesel fuel..... 😛

I'm talking aTRUE 72mpg avarage that I've worked out over 3000+ miles of mainly shortish journeys and town riding. 🙂

I'd give your "72mpg car" about 55mpg, if you're lucky.

And the car will be slower over the journeys I'm doing too.

And then there's the £110 a year for my tax AND fully comp insurance....

And if that's not good enough for you, I had a Honda CG125 that I paid £160 for that did 110+mpg. I used to get bored waiting to put fuel in that thing! 🙂

What I want to know is why are we happy to pay so much more than people in the US do for fuel? We fight the same wars and face the same risks - surely we should get some of the cheap fuel too. There is also the thing about the oil companies making record profits too...

Fuel costs roughly the same to make no matter where in the world it's produced, the difference in retail costs comes from the fact that some governments subsidise fuel while others tax it heavily.

In many oil producing nations fuel is stupidly cheap - in Venezuela it's 12 cents a gallon! The government foregos the money from selling that oil on the open market - instead using the money to make people happy and encourage development.

These subsidies are encouraging huge demand in these countries pushing up the price of oil worldwide.

In the US, the federal tax on fuel is about 18 cents a gallon, pretty low by international standards.

My car has averaged 66.12mpg over 13000+ miles in the last year and a bit. Nowhere near the claimed 83mpg, but much better than most on here and more civilised than a bike/scooter. Most people don't really know the accurate fuel consumption of their car, trip computers aren't that accurate and tend to overestimate to make the car look good anyway.

[URL= http://www.fuelly.com/smallsig-uk/42147.pn g" target="_blank">http://www.fuelly.com/smallsig-uk/42147.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

I've just managed to pick up a full-time contract (after almost 2 years under-employed) in Brentford, and live in Aylesbury. Need to be in the office for 0830.

So using: http://www.transportdirect.info/Web2/JourneyPlanning/JourneyDetails.aspx?cacheparam=9

[b]Public transport[/b] 06:03 08:42 2 hours 39 mins (including 40 mins walking) at £31 return for a Travelcard
[b]Own transport[/b] 07:12 08:30 1 hour 18 mins / 40.7miles at £32 working on 40ppm

No brainer.

When you can get a family sized car that [s]does[/s] claims to do 72mpg it seems pretty rubbish for a scooter.

Well believe it or not, I am not entirely ignorant of the issues. I have driven quite a few cars, calculated economy and compared against the real figures - believe it or not.

70-ish mpg is achievable for a new Prius it seems in normal driving, if you know how to drive it. Driving technique for best economy is a little different to many cars, which is in turn different to what most people think. I can get the govt combined figure (note that this is not a 'claimed' figure) from my old style Prius in the summertime.

But comparing scooters to cars is a bit irrelevant, that was simply a bit of jest, although I would have hoped a scooter could get more than 72mpg to be honest. Esp as it only goes 30mph 🙂

What I want to know is why are we happy to pay so much more than people in the US do for fuel?

We aren't happy about it, are we? You know that most of that is tax, don't you? And we have stuff like an NHS to pay for, right?

Anyway, question for TJ: All those lovely pictures of Scottish mountain walks you post up - how do you get out there?

But comparing scooters to cars is a bit irrelevant, that was simply a bit of jest, although I would have hoped a scooter could get more than 72mpg to be honest. Esp as it only goes 30mph

Just under 80mph actually.... 😛 And I doubt you'll catch me off the lights either....
(200cc, 4 stroke, 4 valve engine. 21bhp 🙂 )

The newer version (The 250) is fuel injected, a bit faster and will do nearer 85mpg. 8)

Dibbs, I can do that, too

[URL= http://www.fuelly.com/smallsig-uk/36771.pn g" target="_blank">http://www.fuelly.com/smallsig-uk/36771.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

70-ish mpg is achievable for a new Prius it seems in normal driving

474 Priusses listed on Fuelly. The average is nowhere near that. Not even close!!!

OK, that's US MPG (Probably...) and there's a few getting 50-60mpg but some of those are based on 2-4 fill-ups, which is a waste of time. I can get 55+mpg out of our petrol Focus if I'm in the mood!

http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius

molgrips - Member
Anyway, question for TJ: All those lovely pictures of Scottish mountain walks you post up - how do you get out there?

Usually by train, sometimes by bus, occasionally by hire car. Occasionally I get lifts from friends - mainly for local biking stuff. I think 3 x trips to GT this year with a lift from friends. 2 x hire vehicles. Begged a lift back from east lothian rides twice as well but rode out to the meet point

Winter walking is the one other thing I do in my life where a car really makes life easier. In summer trains / bikes / camping gets round the need for a car. You have to plan and be inventive and it can be restricting but it can also be liberating. Its nice to sit on the train and drink a beer and have a snooze rather than drive tired and thirsty

Its local stuff is the other time I miss a car. Glentress or East Lothian. Its not worth a hire car but its a long ride

For example - 5 day trek across the highlands. Bus to town, train to Glasgow, train to Oban, ferry to Crainanure, bus to Tobermory, ferry to drimnin. walk for 5 days to glenfinnan. hitch to fort William ( we missed the train and didn't want to wait for the next one) bus to edinburgh

As this was a one way walking route it would not have been possible by car. The only way to do this is using public transport.

Well the Toyota hybrid system is more sensitive to driving technique than a normal car, which may or may not be a bad thing..

But yes - lots of people don't get near 60mpg in a MkII - but I do! Some people are getting 45mpg, which I don't understand at all.

Interesting idea the Fuelly website. But it would seem to only be used by people who care about economy. It'd be interesting to see a similar breakdown of ALL owners of a particular car, so you could see how they responded to indifferent driving.

Outdoor pursuits are the reason I bought a car in the first place.

I do love train travel, but I currently live 20-30 mins from the station. The purchase of our current house was not necessarily the best idea for a variety of reasons, that being one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/10/biofuels.alternativeenergy
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_024771&propertyType=document

Biodiesel is far too much of a ballache for most people tho.

But it would seem to only be used by people who care about economy.

PeterPoddy why've you got your Fuelly fuel price set to dollars? mine shows £

The jeans are pretty overpriced, but I do like their t-shirts.

stop the mumping, if you dont want to pay.....dont ****in drive, isnt this meant to be a bike forum ?

regards to people not needing cars and could easily do without on the previous page,... how would you go about doing your weekly shopping for your family?

say 6 bags or shopping? that could fit on the train, how i get to the train? bike er no, bus er no bus on the route..... taxi ahum_?!

yes i see, actually i dont. drive your cars!!!

the goverment cant even put a plan into place regarding the 3 weeks of snow we have now, even though we got the best scientist regarding global warming 😉

when the price of trains go down i go by train and put up with the 20 mins walk before and after the station to work and home till then i will be in my warm car driving past all those cold people at the mo walking to work 😉 and saving a already dying planet!

regards to people not needing cars and could easily do without on the previous page,... how would you go about doing your weekly shopping for your family?

say 6 bags or shopping? that could fit on the train, how i get to the train? bike er no, bus er no bus on the route..... taxi ahum_?!

Shop more frequently. Don't buy as much crap. Use a shopping trolley. My mum always managed our family shopping, and countless other people globally manage to get their supplies in (sometimes over considerable distances), without having to use a car. I use panniers on me bike if I'm doing a 'big' shop, granted it's only for me though. People need an excuse to be lazy these days.

Cars simply make things more convenient, they don't suddenly make the impossible happen.

CBA reading all the sanctimonious stuff about not needing a car, so not sure if I've missed somebody else pointing out that whilst petrol prices might be at an all time high, diesel still isn't as expensive as it was a year or two ago - I paid £1.33 at somewhere not particularly expensive back then.

Currently paying 136.9p per litre for diesel here in Orkney. Do I win a prize?! My Nissan Navara is doing a wallet bashing 17.5mpg in this snow.

£1.20-ish a litre is still a huge bargain for what it represents. The fact that it's mostly tax isn't that relevant IMO, it's cheaper than decent cider and it's a renewable. Ask your grandkids in 50 years whether they think we got a raw deal.

I'm not going to go all sanctimonious and ecowarrior on you, I happily drive pointless miles in my stinky diesel to ride bicycles and I'll keep on doing that til the fuel is too expensive. And right now it's not even remotely close to that.

Fuel prices will always go up, it's an easy revenue boost for whoevers in power. I remember being 17, having just passed my driving test. We all used to bung a tenner in the tank and just go driving for an afternoon for entertainment. Can't imagine ever doing that now! Currently looking for a motor ATM., but Im still buying petrol as I can't afford a nice merc cls diesel (love em) most diesels still seem noisy horrible things to drive, IMO

I feel hard done by because I live a pretty low carbon lifestyle but my large car is part of that and I get no credit for all the good things I do, but hammered when I put diesel in my car. Taxed three times in one go! (income tax, excise duty, VAT) Grrrr.

I have had rethink my commute, can't do (all of) it by bike in the ice. Have had to use the train. HORRIBLE. Slow, cramped, inconvenient, unpleasant, expensive, unreliable. Car, lovely, no screaming babies or fighting women.

Why do people bash car drivers but not folk who live in great big (use lots of resources to heat) look-at-how-much=money-I-earn houses? and folk who crank up the heating so's they can wear a t shirt indoors in the winter? Why aren't they criticised?

BTW, I wrote to Nick Clegg and pointed out this iniquity and said I was thinking of abandoning my (planet friendlier) caravan holidays in the UK, and was going to take far away holidays from now on by (planet unfriendly) aeroplane ... I didn't get a reply.

Why do people bash car drivers but not folk who ... etc.

because people are stupid.

very, very stupid.

Because car driving involves such conspicuous consumption, allows people to be selfish, showcases such displays of impatience and antisocial behaviour? And costs the non car driving folk thousands a year to subsidise?

What about working? I can't work without a vehicle!!

What do you do that requires you to use a vehicle to work?

What do you do that requires you to use a vehicle to work?

What a ridiculous question.

Here's a starter for 10 - my mum is a Community nurse. With no car, she can't get to people that need daily help.

That's one of MANY jobs that NEED a car.

Get over yourself surf matt.

I merely asked Edric a civil question. What does HE do that requires a car.

Most people who say they need a car for work actually choose one as a result of lifestyle choices.

Of course their are exceptions.

I'm with fbk on this one, I'm self employed and do about 30-40k a year so it really hurts the finances when it goes up. So much for helping small business when it seems so easy to raise revenue via fuel

Here's a starter for 10 - my mum is a Community nurse. With no car, she can't get to people that need daily help.

TJ, I don't know what you mean about non car owners subsidising car owners. Can you explain please?

Oh, my friend is a kitchen fitter. He is a big strong lad, but couldn't possibly get his tools to work without his van.

What, and a massive house is not conspicuous consumption? (arrogant and the other things you said?

Dunno maybe bus/cycle/train? Maybe she doesn't NEED to OWN a car. I know a bloke who's a nurse and who goers to people (mainly older) to take car of them.

Try that in rural Cornwall. 😆 😆

She DOES NEED to own a car.

As do many people in rural areas. In fact most people need a car. Oh how the naive and self righteous make me giggle. 😆

Let's admit it shall we oh car bashers - you all live in cities, you all have no idea. And why the hell do you mountain bike anyway? Think of all the resources you waste pursuing what is merely a LIFESTYLE CHOICE.

Your argument makes a sieve look watertight.

Alright, I've stayed out of this one so far but...

Serious question for TJ: Do you think the UK economy could function as productively as it does now without such widespread use of personal transportation?

(not having a go - I agree that we have far too much car use but I don't agree with your simplistic idea of a solution)

Surf matt - you just confirm your narrow minded stupidity.

Most people need a car.

Karine of nine.

The true total cost of motoring is far more than is raised thru all the motoring taxes. Thus non car owners subsidise car owners ( and road transport in general)

For example local roads are paid for out of council tax / by local government. There is a huge cost of death and illhealth from car ownerhip - that cost the country millions, the cost of enforcing motoring law- these sorts of thing

Its a whole can of worms that will get me an apoplectic attack from the hard core petrol heads on here for even mentioning it

Mat you're being an idiot again. Someone makes a valid point, and you choose SOME exceptions to that to rubbish the whole point. Terrible reasoning.

Molgrips - yes easily but it would take a generation or more to make the shift - it cannot be done overnight. It took us 60 years to get here from a situation where most folk lived within easy reach of their work to the mass commuting now.

I'm keen to see what TJ says about this "non car owners" subsiding the car owners, although a realise that by asking him to substantiate this claim its handing the saop to him.

And im with Surf on the rural commuities, for some places there just isnt a choice about car ownership this day and age.

don't forget that car manufacturers are not unknown to receive generous financial assistance from taxpayers...

assistance that isn't necessarily quite so generously extended to manufacturers of 'not-cars'.

Clong - of course there is a choice - you made the choice to live there in that situation.

In fact most people need a car

for some places there just isnt a choice about car ownership this day and age.

I agree it could be done but not at all easily.

1) it's mentally easier for people to do things when they are physically present at work
2) it's also logistically easier
3) it'd be impossible to tell people that they could not take that lucrative job that's 40 miles away because car use is bad, mkay, and they have to stick with the crap poorly paid one they have.

Three very difficult issues here.

Like TJ - I think we should all follow the Amish way of life

oh, & no one is allowed a dog that barks either, coz it's scary

The true total cost of motoring is far more than is raised thru all the motoring taxes. Thus non car owners subsidise car owners ( and road transport in general)

For example local roads are paid for out of council tax / by local government. There is a huge cost of death and illhealth from car ownerhip - that cost the country millions, the cost of enforcing motoring law- these sorts of thing

So any proof for these bold claims?

No, I thought not.

Yes I get what some of you are trying to say - a lot of people live too far from where they work, rely too much on their cars, etc but a dose of reality is needed.

In a big city, public transport is generally good enough to get you almost anywhere you need to, when you need to. In rural communities you have one bus a day if you're lucky and that is literally it. No trains or any viable alternatives.

Hey, maybe no one should live in the countryside?

As for taxes - the last figure I heard was that road taxes made the Government almost £40bn of which £5bn was ploughed back into the road network. I very much doubt that cars "cost" the government £35bn....

TJ - in the spirit of genuine discussion:

Got any figures?

Non car owners also use the roads (in buses, which, by the way, TOTALLY trash roads, see the bus lanes around the Elephant & Castle for example), on bicycles, horses (but not often and not really for transport, to be fair).

Car owners not only pay road taxes, but income tax too, from which road upkeep comes.

Car owners pay council tax, so are contributing there also.

Car ownership may cause accidents and illness but also brings great joy, being able to go to events, shopping (whatever you like), which makes people happy. Happiness is very important indeed.

On the other hand, I believe that most/many drivers are not skilled enough, do not pay attention properly, have completely the wrong attitude, have no notion of the responsibility that ought to go with propelling so many tons of metal at speed. Driving used to be a privilege and something one took pride in - I see very little of that nowadays. (God, that makes me sound old! lol)

Moilgrips - you still don't see it. over a generation - attitudes change - think of the difference between transport in the 50s and now?

Over a generation or more it is easy to do this - make private motoring more expensive ( as it will become anyway as oil runs out) but do it in a controlled and planned manner using he money to subsidise alternatives.

One thing is commuting becomes less attractive / feasable / cost effective. Youa re not telling hem they cannot have that job with the 40 mile commute tbut that the various factors that people weigh when they make that decision are rebalanced - and you can also use teh revenue raised to improve public transport.

I take the train to work because its cheaper and faster than a car. All the shops I need to survive are within walking distance of my house too.

But I still have a car that does 20mpg, it's great fun and if it riles up a few hippies then I'm just that little bit happier.

Oh and I work from home - the ultimate example of not relying on a car.
Molgrips, preacher of greeness has a very large commute and relies on extremely resource heavy hotels. He also flies a lot. No pious is going to offset that sort of giant footprint.

Karine / surf matt - if yo want to see some numbers here is a good place to sart. A bit of counter propaganda to the petrol heads.

Karine - what did I tell you about the attacks

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2000/08/03/drivers-are-undertaxed/

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/category/transport/