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druidh - Member
I think it's also true that the price of petrol and diesel needs to go higher. I like the idea of scrapping the Road Fund Licence and just having a tax on fuel usage.Of course, I expect the left-wing ranties will come along any minute complaining that soon, only the wealthy will be able to afford to drive....
No, no, no - I'm no lefty by any means, but do drive 35-40k a year for my own business. We are taxed on fuel enough already, hence the ridiculous prices. My fuel bill is approx £6k a year, which equates to nearly 7% of turnover - I don't think I need to be paying any more.
Despite personal interests, as stated earlier by someone - everything goes up in cost if transportation costs increase.
if fuel was £20 a gallon how long till 100+ mpg cars?
Yeah and 50+ mpg 40 tonne trucks that deliver your food.....
TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - MemberNo, no, no - I'm no lefty by any means, but do drive 35-40k a year for my own business. We are taxed on fuel enough already, hence the ridiculous prices. My fuel bill is approx £6k a year, which equates to nearly 7% of turnover - I don't think I need to be paying any more.
Just think for a moment what would happen if fuel became so expensive that those sort of mileages were unsustainable. Could it be that more local businesess would be able to complete more succesfully with larger, centralised organisations?
It's a bit obvious, but I reckon someone on here could do some good work with that.
I think views depend on where you live too. I've always lived in the countryside, except for 1 year when I lived in the city and biked everywhere, and this has, to an extent, meant dependence on cars because public transport simply wasn't frequent or near enough to be viable. Whereas for someone like Elfin or Teej living in a sprawling urban metropolis (!) it's seen as a bit superfluous.
Once, someone actually had the audacity to suggest that I moved from the Derbyshire Dales to the West Midlands. I'll end my comments here due to the recent clamp down on swearing.
Fair enough. That is unreasonable! 😆
Almost all car drivers will attempt to justify why they, in particular, [i]need[/i] their car. The worst ime tend to be the ones who live in London, have all amenities within walking distance, and a perfectly fgood public transport system quite close! They also tend not to be all that fit and healthy...
Truth is, that at least half, if not two thirds or even more, of all car owners could lose their cars and not be unduly affected. They might have to walk a bit more, or get on a bike, or something instead. Oh the Humanity...
Saw a woman a while ago, lives by me. Gets in her car, drives off. I walk to the local market (1/2 mile), see her parking up in the car park. Then see her again in the supermarket. Did me shopping, came home, to see her pull up. She gets out, then gets two small carrier baygs out of the boot. She's not disabled or owt.
Cars make people lazy. And selfish. Make that journey five, ten times more spensive, maybe she'll think twice. Sybarite.
Some lazy and selfish people buy cars.
Just think for a moment what would happen if fuel became so expensive that those sort of mileages were unsustainable. Could it be that more local businesess would be able to complete more succesfully with larger, centralised organisations?
Certain areas would become ghost towns, with not enough work per capita - the inability to travel strangulating businesses.
In my line of work, the industry is quite incestuous and although nationwide, you're never far away from someone you've encountered before. Could I not travel, then I could not sustain my business, regardless of how localised the 'organisation' of the industry became.
druidh - MemberJust think for a moment what would happen if fuel became so expensive that those sort of mileages were unsustainable. Could it be that more local businesess would be able to complete more succesfully with larger, centralised organisations?
And also commuting would become unsuatainable meaning local shops would again become viable and rural workers would be able to afford housing in rural areas.
As for your argument TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - all that happens is you need to put up prices as do all your competitors. You costs relative to your competitors remains the same, demand for your services remains the same, just pushes a bit on inflation. Your actual profitability remains unchanged.
You might get a more economical #vehicle as well.
the industry is quite incestuous
😀
As for your argument TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - all that happens is you need to put up prices as do all your competitors. You costs relative to your competitors remains the same, demand for your services remains the same, just pushes a bit on inflation. Your actual profitability remains unchanged.You might get a more economical #vehicle as well.
druid was talking of costs so high that travelling was unsustainable, therefore localising business. Increasing my prices, or indeed customers increasing prices proportionately isn't as simple as black and white. My work is either ultimately funded by either Government in the form of road building/maintenance (already a reducing market), or developers funding section 38/278 works. It may have slipped your attention, but we're in a recession - in the last 2 years with my old company markup on cost was reduced from 25% to 2.5% just to win work - and we weren't winning enough at that. Overheads running at 20% of turnover soon saw the demise of that particular company.
As for a more economical vehicle - what would TJ suggest - a bike?
If all companies doing that work have the same increase in cost then there is no conmpetative disadvantage - and demand will remain the same. Or else its uneeded work.
Its the same as the minimum waggle - employers complained it would put them out of business buy raising costs - but as it applied to all employers then it remains a level playing field.
At the moment fuel is so cheap I am subsidising you.
TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - MemberAs for a more economical vehicle - what would TJ suggest - a bike?
Nah - the suggestion is that with vastly increased fuel costs, cars would have to become much more frugal with fuel.
What we [i]really[/i] need is an alternative source of fuel and a real drive to get it. From what I can tell of our oil resources (not reserves) we do have enough to keep going for a fair while, and it will take a very long time for it to become expensive enough for people to look at these alternatives seriously. Prices will keep rising in the meantime, but at a steady, relatively affordable, rate that will be countered by more economical cars.
When the cars are all hydrogen fuel cell then we're laughing, so this "local business" thing is, to my mind, not going to become a reality so your job is, on the centuries scale, safe STR.
Which I'm sure is a great comfort...
SpokesCycles - Member
What we really need is an alternative source of fuel and a real drive to get it. From what I can tell of our oil resources (not reserves) we do have enough to keep going for a fair while, and it will take a very long time for it to become expensive enough for people to look at these alternatives seriously. Prices will keep rising in the meantime, but at a steady, relatively affordable, rate that will be countered by more economical cars.
I reckon that those of us who can afford it are only doing our public duty by using as much petrol and diesel as we possibly can in order to incentivise society into developing alternatives.
druidh - MemberNot many trains going to and from Glentress of an evening these days TJ?
Druidh- I think you'd have to drill a hole in the Uglipla's fuel tank to use enough to genuinely speed up the process 😉
TandemJeremy - MemberNope - the beggers took the train away
SpokesCycles - Member
Druidh- I think you'd have to drill a hole in the Uglipla's fuel tank to use enough to genuinely speed up the process
Watch this space....the bike van is on order and the fashionable convertible is next!
Now Mark's got the Bentley he's upped your wages has he?
I used to cycle everywhere for nothing, till I passed my test at the age of 36, never found NOT driving a problem. I had a bike. seriously though, Driving is SOOOOO physically convienient, just get in and go, no physical or real mental effort required, it's soo easy and comfortable. I gotta try harder not to use the car, not for the cash saving, but cos it's better for me.
I have two hats when it comes to this. When I am in the US I use my car to go everywhere, there is no alternative so the car is king. When I am in London it is public transport and bike 95% of the time as the car makes no sense at all.
Long distances in the UK are by car though as the rail services are just rediculously expensive. Compare them to the cost and service offered by the Swiss and French railways, there is still a long way to go. I take the Eurostar from London to Paris for £60 return yet London to Manchester costs £110 return!!
When you can get a family sized car that does 72mpg it seems pretty rubbish for a scooter
As someone else said [u]CLAIMS 72mpg.[/u] On the motorway. at 56mph. On diesel fuel..... 😛
I'm talking aTRUE 72mpg avarage that I've worked out over 3000+ miles of mainly shortish journeys and town riding. 🙂
I'd give your "72mpg car" about 55mpg, if you're lucky.
And the car will be slower over the journeys I'm doing too.
And then there's the £110 a year for my tax AND fully comp insurance....
And if that's not good enough for you, I had a Honda CG125 that I paid £160 for that did 110+mpg. I used to get bored waiting to put fuel in that thing! 🙂
What I want to know is why are we happy to pay so much more than people in the US do for fuel? We fight the same wars and face the same risks - surely we should get some of the cheap fuel too. There is also the thing about the oil companies making record profits too...
Fuel costs roughly the same to make no matter where in the world it's produced, the difference in retail costs comes from the fact that some governments subsidise fuel while others tax it heavily.
In many oil producing nations fuel is stupidly cheap - in Venezuela it's 12 cents a gallon! The government foregos the money from selling that oil on the open market - instead using the money to make people happy and encourage development.
These subsidies are encouraging huge demand in these countries pushing up the price of oil worldwide.
In the US, the federal tax on fuel is about 18 cents a gallon, pretty low by international standards.
My car has averaged 66.12mpg over 13000+ miles in the last year and a bit. Nowhere near the claimed 83mpg, but much better than most on here and more civilised than a bike/scooter. Most people don't really know the accurate fuel consumption of their car, trip computers aren't that accurate and tend to overestimate to make the car look good anyway.
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I've just managed to pick up a full-time contract (after almost 2 years under-employed) in Brentford, and live in Aylesbury. Need to be in the office for 0830.
So using: http://www.transportdirect.info/Web2/JourneyPlanning/JourneyDetails.aspx?cacheparam=9
[b]Public transport[/b] 06:03 08:42 2 hours 39 mins (including 40 mins walking) at £31 return for a Travelcard
[b]Own transport[/b] 07:12 08:30 1 hour 18 mins / 40.7miles at £32 working on 40ppm
No brainer.
When you can get a family sized car that [s]does[/s] claims to do 72mpg it seems pretty rubbish for a scooter.
Well believe it or not, I am not entirely ignorant of the issues. I have driven quite a few cars, calculated economy and compared against the real figures - believe it or not.
70-ish mpg is achievable for a new Prius it seems in normal driving, if you know how to drive it. Driving technique for best economy is a little different to many cars, which is in turn different to what most people think. I can get the govt combined figure (note that this is not a 'claimed' figure) from my old style Prius in the summertime.
But comparing scooters to cars is a bit irrelevant, that was simply a bit of jest, although I would have hoped a scooter could get more than 72mpg to be honest. Esp as it only goes 30mph 🙂
What I want to know is why are we happy to pay so much more than people in the US do for fuel?
We aren't happy about it, are we? You know that most of that is tax, don't you? And we have stuff like an NHS to pay for, right?
Anyway, question for TJ: All those lovely pictures of Scottish mountain walks you post up - how do you get out there?
But comparing scooters to cars is a bit irrelevant, that was simply a bit of jest, although I would have hoped a scooter could get more than 72mpg to be honest. Esp as it only goes 30mph
Just under 80mph actually.... 😛 And I doubt you'll catch me off the lights either....
(200cc, 4 stroke, 4 valve engine. 21bhp 🙂 )
The newer version (The 250) is fuel injected, a bit faster and will do nearer 85mpg. 8)
Dibbs, I can do that, too
[URL= http://www.fuelly.com/smallsig-uk/36771.pn g" target="_blank">http://www.fuelly.com/smallsig-uk/36771.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
70-ish mpg is achievable for a new Prius it seems in normal driving
474 Priusses listed on Fuelly. The average is nowhere near that. Not even close!!!
OK, that's US MPG (Probably...) and there's a few getting 50-60mpg but some of those are based on 2-4 fill-ups, which is a waste of time. I can get 55+mpg out of our petrol Focus if I'm in the mood!
http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius
molgrips - Member
Anyway, question for TJ: All those lovely pictures of Scottish mountain walks you post up - how do you get out there?
Usually by train, sometimes by bus, occasionally by hire car. Occasionally I get lifts from friends - mainly for local biking stuff. I think 3 x trips to GT this year with a lift from friends. 2 x hire vehicles. Begged a lift back from east lothian rides twice as well but rode out to the meet point
Winter walking is the one other thing I do in my life where a car really makes life easier. In summer trains / bikes / camping gets round the need for a car. You have to plan and be inventive and it can be restricting but it can also be liberating. Its nice to sit on the train and drink a beer and have a snooze rather than drive tired and thirsty
Its local stuff is the other time I miss a car. Glentress or East Lothian. Its not worth a hire car but its a long ride
For example - 5 day trek across the highlands. Bus to town, train to Glasgow, train to Oban, ferry to Crainanure, bus to Tobermory, ferry to drimnin. walk for 5 days to glenfinnan. hitch to fort William ( we missed the train and didn't want to wait for the next one) bus to edinburgh
As this was a one way walking route it would not have been possible by car. The only way to do this is using public transport.
Well the Toyota hybrid system is more sensitive to driving technique than a normal car, which may or may not be a bad thing..
But yes - lots of people don't get near 60mpg in a MkII - but I do! Some people are getting 45mpg, which I don't understand at all.
Interesting idea the Fuelly website. But it would seem to only be used by people who care about economy. It'd be interesting to see a similar breakdown of ALL owners of a particular car, so you could see how they responded to indifferent driving.
Outdoor pursuits are the reason I bought a car in the first place.
I do love train travel, but I currently live 20-30 mins from the station. The purchase of our current house was not necessarily the best idea for a variety of reasons, that being one.
Biodiesel is far too much of a ballache for most people tho.
But it would seem to only be used by people who care about economy.
Tell that to this bloke
[url= http://www.fuelly.com/driver/notyme/300 ]http://www.fuelly.com/driver/notyme/300[/url]
PeterPoddy why've you got your Fuelly fuel price set to dollars? mine shows £
The jeans are pretty overpriced, but I do like their t-shirts.
stop the mumping, if you dont want to pay.....dont ****in drive, isnt this meant to be a bike forum ?
regards to people not needing cars and could easily do without on the previous page,... how would you go about doing your weekly shopping for your family?
say 6 bags or shopping? that could fit on the train, how i get to the train? bike er no, bus er no bus on the route..... taxi ahum_?!
yes i see, actually i dont. drive your cars!!!
the goverment cant even put a plan into place regarding the 3 weeks of snow we have now, even though we got the best scientist regarding global warming 😉
when the price of trains go down i go by train and put up with the 20 mins walk before and after the station to work and home till then i will be in my warm car driving past all those cold people at the mo walking to work 😉 and saving a already dying planet!
regards to people not needing cars and could easily do without on the previous page,... how would you go about doing your weekly shopping for your family?say 6 bags or shopping? that could fit on the train, how i get to the train? bike er no, bus er no bus on the route..... taxi ahum_?!
Shop more frequently. Don't buy as much crap. Use a shopping trolley. My mum always managed our family shopping, and countless other people globally manage to get their supplies in (sometimes over considerable distances), without having to use a car. I use panniers on me bike if I'm doing a 'big' shop, granted it's only for me though. People need an excuse to be lazy these days.
Cars simply make things more convenient, they don't suddenly make the impossible happen.
CBA reading all the sanctimonious stuff about not needing a car, so not sure if I've missed somebody else pointing out that whilst petrol prices might be at an all time high, diesel still isn't as expensive as it was a year or two ago - I paid £1.33 at somewhere not particularly expensive back then.
Currently paying 136.9p per litre for diesel here in Orkney. Do I win a prize?! My Nissan Navara is doing a wallet bashing 17.5mpg in this snow.
£1.20-ish a litre is still a huge bargain for what it represents. The fact that it's mostly tax isn't that relevant IMO, it's cheaper than decent cider and it's a renewable. Ask your grandkids in 50 years whether they think we got a raw deal.
I'm not going to go all sanctimonious and ecowarrior on you, I happily drive pointless miles in my stinky diesel to ride bicycles and I'll keep on doing that til the fuel is too expensive. And right now it's not even remotely close to that.
Fuel prices will always go up, it's an easy revenue boost for whoevers in power. I remember being 17, having just passed my driving test. We all used to bung a tenner in the tank and just go driving for an afternoon for entertainment. Can't imagine ever doing that now! Currently looking for a motor ATM., but Im still buying petrol as I can't afford a nice merc cls diesel (love em) most diesels still seem noisy horrible things to drive, IMO
I feel hard done by because I live a pretty low carbon lifestyle but my large car is part of that and I get no credit for all the good things I do, but hammered when I put diesel in my car. Taxed three times in one go! (income tax, excise duty, VAT) Grrrr.
I have had rethink my commute, can't do (all of) it by bike in the ice. Have had to use the train. HORRIBLE. Slow, cramped, inconvenient, unpleasant, expensive, unreliable. Car, lovely, no screaming babies or fighting women.
Why do people bash car drivers but not folk who live in great big (use lots of resources to heat) look-at-how-much=money-I-earn houses? and folk who crank up the heating so's they can wear a t shirt indoors in the winter? Why aren't they criticised?
BTW, I wrote to Nick Clegg and pointed out this iniquity and said I was thinking of abandoning my (planet friendlier) caravan holidays in the UK, and was going to take far away holidays from now on by (planet unfriendly) aeroplane ... I didn't get a reply.