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Too many times have people based their opinions on the massively distorted picture provided by tabloid newspapers.
Research has shown that in fact sentencing is largely in line with what most people think it should be, but the same sample consistently thought that current sentencing was much more lenient than it really is. The papers only highlight cases where they consider an especially lenient sentence has been given.
Also, the fact is that the ONLY method of reducing re-offending is education and rehabilitation. The statistics are very clear - re-offending rates are still pretty high, but these programmes are the only thing that can be shown to make a significant difference. Reducing re-offending even by a very small amount actually saves the taxpayer a lot of money because of the costs involved in locking people up and processing them through the justice system.
But hey let's just forget all that so we can satisfy some kind of base urge for revenge eh?
Too many times the media have publicised cases of crimes going un-punished or by using some great social experiment to try to prevent them commiting any more crime.
Can you pick out the key word in that sentence that points to utterly flawed logic?
Here's an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment
If you are interested in justice, these are the last people who should be involved as they will, quite understanably, be interested in retribution rather than justice.
Dont know about all the comments above (and this might sound callous) but the lads only 15yrs. Which means we have another 4 decades or so of having to manage his care, pick up the pieces of subsequent offending etc. He'll probably come into contact with hundreds of dedicated professionals throughout his life and he'll be back in Manchester when hes released like many others like him at somepoint.
Sad all round really. Nothing tub-thumping on a handringing-mountain bike website you can do though.
That would certainly solve the rehabilitation aspect but was not what I said or advocated.By killing them?
And who should get to decide that? Dedicated, experienced and trained professionals, or some people who read about it on the internet?
I was merely offering an opinion. As for the 'dedicated, experienced and trained professionals' - I frequently come into contact with those unfortunates who have been deemed fit to return to society by those same dedicated professionals and who, quite evidently, are not !
Hora fair point, Well made!
shands - Member
I believe that the moral fabric of society is breaking down due to the excessively lenient sentencing that is occuring.
There you go a brilliantly uninformed statement at a time when we have more people locked up and for longer than at any time in the history of the nation!
Too many times the media have publicised cases of crimes going un-punished or by using some great social experiment to try to prevent them commiting any more crime.
And again! The recidivism rate for conventional jail is in the high 80 to low 90 percent area, whilst the "Great social experiment" rate is the opposite.
It hasn't worked. Here's an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment. That would appease all you looney lefty types that think the criminal have been done wrong by. For us who think that they should be suitably punished for trespassing against us will get our justice.
What? The justice of putting the offender into a system that almost guarantees that they will reoffend?
Or will that lead to more looney lefties getting killed because the criminal fraternity will learn whos best to attack and whos not!
Loony? As I said, the definition of insanity amply demonstrated by Monsieur Shands. I thank you sir, I believe my case now stands as proven.
TJ - you are kidding with that entirely inappropriate/irrelevant link........aren't you ?
I like the way the hang em and flog em lot are just ignoring all the clear evidence about why it's a good thing the justice system isn't run by angry Sun readers.
Wunundred!
I have nothing to add, that hazzunt already been said by TJ, Grumm and other sane people.
I just feel really, really sad for that poor little innocent girl. 😥
[i]This means rehabilitation of the offenders and[b] removal of inequalities in society [/b][/i]
I didn't really want to get involved, as I don't have an answer. I was wondering if TJ did, as all I've seen him do is argue against the opinions of others without providing an alternative. Then the above.
WTF does that mean? Nothing.
coming from the same person as "stupid unworkable suggestions without any thought or idea of reality."
Some acts are so inhuman that society should never again be placed at risk by allowing the perpetrator back into that society.
I don't agree that an 'act so inhuman' should automatically prevent someone from reentering society, how is this defined? What were the circumstances? If possible they should be allowed back and we should try to forgive them, not suggesting that this is 'easy'.
The right thing to do must surely be to try to find a way that enables the purpetrator to lead a life that has a postive effect on themselves and others, in doing so we learn more about ourselves and humanity, if that's from behind bars that should be because all the evidence supports that as the most sensible option, not because the baying masses desire it.
chewkw - Member"Insane in the main brain"
It's "membrane". FWIW
to be fair
hes insane he's got no brain
so he has an excuse 8)
Firing squad for scum like him, so what if he is mentally ill how and why is that an excuse. If ANYONE did that to my kid i would personally maim them.
PS TJ not a daily mail reader - just someone angry at an appalling crime, no punishment or rehabilitation is fitting for such an evil act. defend all you like but at the end of the day he is scum until proven innocent!
Just as a matter of interest, its also worth not shooting people like this so that we can learn from them and thereby perhaps avoid a repetition elsewhere.
I have a very simplistic view on things like this (Probably because I dont read any newspapers as I feel they're all slanted to which ever notion that the editor, owner, etc want to put in the public domain). The view is if it was my child that had been murdered like this how would I react. I am sorry but some looney lefties would obviously think I am babaric. I d want retribution.
Again I go back to asking the victims and families of victims to be involved in sentencing. Those who wish to turn the other cheek can and those that want their view of justice can also be represented. Unless this of course goes against you ejits that want to protect all convicted criminals from any sense of responsibility for their actions. After all some of the very strange notion that nobody is responsible for their own actions it obviously has something to do with something or someone else.
Nick
The right thing to do must surely be to try to find a way that enables the purpetrator to lead a life that has a postive effect on themselves and others, in doing so we learn more about ourselves and humanity
All very worthy and in an ideal world that would be the correct solution.
However, bearing in mind that many 'good' people die on a daily basis due to a lack of funding or medical care, is it really an appropriate use of finite resources to attempt the rehabilitation of someone whose only contribution to society is likely to be contained in a psychiatric study ? I am not talking about this specific case as the full facts are not available, but generally for cases of this type.
G - I would be more inclined to agree with you were it not for the fact that thses cases are relatively rare and it is debatable whether any amount of analysis could prevent re-occurrence.
SO let me get this straight TJ is saying that crime rates down but G is saying we have more people locked up. I am obviously very stupid cause I can't see how both can be true. Maybe you better decide which stats you want to spout to better define your points of view people.
Lies, damn lies and statistics someone once said!
Dezb.
It is clear that inequalities of opportunity are [i]one[/i]of the drivers of crime. In times of rising prosperity and decreasing inequality crime goes down. One way of reducing crime is to reduce inequalities of opportunity.
I am also a believer in restorative justice - as in the link I posted above - again proven to work [i]in some cases[/i] Such things as those "graffitti artists" who were jailed. They should be made to paint public buildings - preferably in magnolia 🙂
Much crime is strongly linked to drugs. A more rational drugs policy taking it out of the judicial system into the healthcare and education systems would reduce crime. In some areas the majority of crime is drugs linked. this would also have the effect of freeing up police time to detect the other crime that is not drugs related.
Much tougher non custodial sentencing as well - re offending rates are much lower for non custodial sentencing. [i]Again where appropriate.[/i] ie where there is no risk to the public.
There is a wealth of research on what works. I would like to follow this research. I like evidence based practice.
There is no one simple solution. Much of what works requires money - but money spent on rehabilitation = money saved in the consequences of crime. Reducing crime saves money.
There are general things such as I have outlined above. There are also more basic things for individuals. One thing is to intevene earlier in a criminals career.
I am purely pragmatic in all this. I claim no moral basis in any way. I simply want to see things that are proven to work used rather than the continuation of our failed policies.
the problem is the things that are proven to work do not play well with the "daily Wail" tendency ( a convenient shorthand)
I am obviously very stupid cause I can't see how both can be true.
In order to satisfy the cretinous members of the public who lap up stories of the breakdown society, people are being sent to prison for crimes that would be better delt with without resorting to detention.
It's really not a difficult concept to grasp 😉
Shands, because people are getting longer sentences or getting put in prison for things where previously they wouldn't have done? It's not that hard really.
Of course if you were a bit cleverer you might have suggested that this means that locking up lots of people works (but you'd still be wrong).
shands - MemberSO let me get this straight TJ is saying that crime rates down but G is saying we have more people locked up. I am obviously very stupid cause I can't see how both can be true. Maybe you better decide which stats you want to spout to better define your points of view people.
Lies, damn lies and statistics someone once said!
Both are true. People are now locked up for longer than they used to be for the same crime and more people are locked up for crimes that did not attract custodial sentences in the past.
so although crime is down - we lock up more people for these crimes. Also detection rates are up.
simple
I have a very simplistic view on things like this ............... The view is if it was my child that had been murdered like this how would I react. I d want retribution.
a perfectly reasonable reaction - but not one to base sentencing policy on IMO
I truly hope that chewkw is a troll and I can claim my £5...
Very very sad for the poor child, perhaps the parents can except some responsibility for leaving their child in the care of another child, their choice of child minder was obviously poor.
What the teanage boy has done is beyound belief, he needs to be kept away from people he can hurt, however no one has the right to take a human life. Even a floored human being has the right to a fair trial.
Having said this i am not sure i could stop myself from taking matters into my own hands if i was the affected parent. Perhaps that would make me a bad person.
What utter drivel. Whats it like up on your fluffy white cloud!
Crime rates may be dropping due to the police not wanting to accept anything they cant solve. Personal experience of only three occasions were I have been trangressed against. 1st nobody was interested in my car being stolen. Had to go and look for it myself, found it and phoned the police. Still not interested, would not attend. Informed them that was taking the car back, if there was trouble would deal with it ourselves. Strangely enough responded within 5 minutes. The scroat that stole it owned up a year later when being done for something else. Aprox 35 crimes all in one hit. He served less time, police look like theyre doing a wonderful job, not.
2nd time someone rammed the front of my property with a van and drove off. Called the police out and had a knob of a sergent tell me it wasn't a crime to damage someones property and drive away. Even when I insisted it must be criinal damage or leaving the scene of an accident. Strangely he got upset when I offered to come and slam my car into the front of his house if it wasn't a crime!
Thirdly had trees(trees for christ sake) stolen from my property and all the cops did was laugh. Not a happy bear with the way that the law is represented in this lovely country of ours.
So if I am I bit pesimistic with our ability as a soceity to deal with the less than productive members you will please forgive me! Not that I give a damn what you actually think.
Well been fun, I do like having debates with TJ. Always has an opinion, usually that differs from mine. But usually has some other link to back his opinion up
Have fun children!
Having said this i am not sure i could stop myself from taking matters into my own hands if i was the affected parent. Perhaps that would make me a bad person
Pretty normal I would say. I'm damned sure I would want the guilty party to suffer a similar fate to the child but preferably more painful and protracted !
G - I would be more inclined to agree with you were it not for the fact that thses cases are relatively rare and it is debatable whether any amount of analysis could prevent re-occurrence.
Possibly right, but it would be a shame if we were at the tipping point of a trend and actually didn't pick up on it, thus not acting and thus perpetuating it. I suspect if you look at things like the James Boulger case and one or two high profile others in the recent past you might well find that this sort of hard core crime carried out by minors is potentially more of an issue than you might think. .. . . I believe there is an ever growing list of stabbings for instance.
Also on the take them out and shoot them front, just take a look at the long list of miscarriages of justice going back to the Birmingham 6. Its very easy to pontificate, not so easy to carry out the sentence and even harder to go and apologise to the family when you find out that you've killed the wrong person judicially.
Shands - the crime stats that show crime reducing are nothing to do with the police, with "solved crime" or anything but interviews with real people about their real experiences of crime.
I suggest that we try to seperate out our emotionally retarded vigilante fantasies from the intensly complex and difficult work society needs to do to improve itself.
There will always be crime and violence, there will always be inequality, there will always be drugs, we can choose to bury our collective heads in the sand and just bin those who don't fit the model 'we' want, or we can try to continue to include everyone whoever they are and whatever they have done, ultimately because this will better us all.
I believe there is an ever growing list of stabbings for instance
A gaggle of psaychiatrists could have a field day trying to prove the link between this case and youth stabbings, no doubt with evidence supported theories taking into account variables of pollen count and moon phase when the act was committed 😉
Nick
As a matter of interest, are you wearing a tie dye t-shirt and dancing around with flowers in your hair while you type ?
No, unfortunately, sounds like quite a nice way to spend the afternoon !
In fact I'm the complete opposite, I firmly believe that we need to face up to the very difficult questions about humanity this sort of case raises and continue to work to find ways to understand and then hopefully reduce it, we have immediately failed as a race if we give up and throw away the key.
Albert Perripoint,who was the hangman for the British legal system believed the death sentence was little more than state sanctified murder and he also believed it did little good.
I agree,theres plenty of modern countries that despite a death sentence,still have high numbers of murders per year.
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As you increase the sentence you increase to risks the criminal is willing to take to get away.
shands - You are a star ! .......not much entertains and amuses me more than tabloid-fuelled rantings !
And the ranting in your last post was simply priceless. I really felt after reading it that all coppers should be thrown into prison - they are clearly in collusion with the criminals !
.
So anyway, it's the "looney lefties" who are opposed to the death sentence is it ? 😀
What, do you mean like the 'looney left' government of Margaret Thatcher which refused to re-introduce the death penalty ?
In the recent EU elections right-wingers won a massive majority. As the looney left are clearly not in control of the EU, can we expect the EU to drop it's opposition to the death penalty ?
Because as you undoubtedly know, the EU will not allow any country with the death penalty to become a member state. In fact the EU campaigns vigorously for a global ban on the death sentence :
[url= http://ec.europa.eu/news/external_relations/070620_1_en.htm ]"Tireless champion for the abolition of the death penalty throughout the world, the EU proposes a European day against the death penalty. The EU wants to see the death penalty become a thing of the past everywhere on the planet"[/url]
And it's not just the looney left in the EU which has abolished the death sentence. The looney left has abolished the death sentence in most other countries of the world.
Which suggests that the 'loonies' are in fact 'normal', and it's the 'let's hang 'em brigade' which are, erm .............. [i]the actual[/i] loonies ?
Here is a list of all the countries which have abolished the death sentence. In brackets are the years when abolition took place (I bet the Venezuelans would be surprised to learn that they have had 'looney left' governments for almost 150 years!)
* Albania (2000)
* Andorra (1990)
* Angola (1992)
* Argentina (2008)
* Armenia (2003)
* Australia (1984)
* Austria (1950)
* Azerbaijan (1998)
* Belgium (1996)
* Bhutan (2004)
* Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
* Bulgaria (1998)
* Cambodia (1989)
* Canada (1976)
* Cape Verde (1981)
* Chile (2008)
* Colombia (1910)
* Cook Islands (2007)
* Costa Rica (1877)
* Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
* Croatia (1990)
* Cyprus (1983)
* Czech Republic (1990)
* Denmark (1933)
* Djibouti (1995)
* Dominican Republic (1966)
* East Timor (1999)
* Ecuador (1906)
* Estonia (1998)
* Finland (1949)
* France (1981)
* Georgia (1997)
* Germany (1949)
* Greece (1993)
* Guinea-Bissau (1993)
* Haiti (1987)
* Honduras (1956)
* Hungary (1990)
* Iceland (1928)
* Ireland (1990)
* Italy (1947)
* Kiribati (1979)
* Liberia (2005)
* Liechtenstein (1987)
* Lithuania (1998)
* Luxembourg (1979)
* Macedonia (1991)
* Malta (1971)
* Marshall Islands (1986)
* Mauritius (1995)
* Mexico (2005)
* Micronesia (1986)
* Moldova (1995)
* Monaco (1962)
* Montenegro (2002)
* Mozambique (1990)
* Namibia (1990)
* Nepal (1990)
* Netherlands (1870)
* New Zealand (1961)
* Nicaragua (1979)
* Niue (n.a.)
* Norway (1905)
* Palau (n.a.)
* Panama (1903)
* Paraguay (1992)
* Poland (1997)
* Portugal (1867)
* Philippines (2006)
* Romania (1989)
* Rwanda (2007)
* Samoa (2004)
* San Marino (1848)
* São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
* Senegal (2004)
* Serbia (2002)
* Seychelles (1993)
* Slovak Republic (1990)
* Slovenia (1989)
* Solomon Islands (1966)
* South Africa (1995)
* Spain (1978)
* Sweden (1921)
* Switzerland (1942)
* Turkey (2002)
* Turkmenistan (1999)
* Tuvalu (1978)
* Ukraine (1999)
* United Kingdom (1973)
* Uruguay (1907)
* Uzbekistan (2008)
* Vanuatu (1980)
* Vatican City (1969)
* Venezuela (1863)
LOL! Some of the countries listed above do not need death penalty as living there can already be deemed as a death penalty.
Also most newly formed "EU" countries only abolished death penalty not because they want to but because they have to if they are going to join EU.
As for Philippines because they want to be another state of USA.
LOL! I can see a trend in those countries ... incentives is the word.
Oh ya ... statistic correlation and significance ... eerrmm ... you don't want to go there. Statistic is merely numbers and you can interpret them as much as you like to fit the box.
Hmm, this has run to 4 pages but the OP answered the question in the first post!
"Why can't they name the ****er?!"
"put a bounty on his head!"
That's why.
As for Philippines because they want to be another state of USA.
The Philippines abolished the death penalty in 2006 because it wants to be part of the USA ?
The USA - a country world famous for having the death penalty ?
And when exactly are the Philippines going to become the 51st state of this 'death penalty free' USA then ?
.
Unbelievable ....................your stupidity knows no bounds.
.
BTW do you actually understand what the word 'statistic' means ? Saying that the Philippines abolished the death sentence is not providing a statistic, any more than me saying that you are some sort of idiot is.
Both are clearly FACTS
Which suggests that the 'loonies' are in fact 'normal', and it's the 'let's hang 'em brigade' which are, erm .............. the actual loonies ?
You can't tell them that, they are clearly to mental to accept it. I suppose this is what happens when they get released through the "care in the Community" scheme.
I dont want convicted murders back on the street with open access to alcohol, drugs and zero work opportunity for them.
Liberal society tells us that they deserve a 'second chance'. The sad fact is these people werent first time offenders and this is their 'second chance'. Any Policeman on here? I bet each murderer etc has a very long history going back to their youth but thanks to our liberal society we have to give them another chance.
Sorry, Im not sure on the death penalty however I think we should have wholelife tariffs for murder committed. Big jails? Yes but it'll be safer on the streets.
As for Paedophiles, there is no cure so they should never be released. Sorry if that offends anyone.
Liberal society tells us that they deserve a 'second chance'. The sad fact is these people werent first time offenders and this is their 'second chance'. Any Policeman on here? I bet each murderer etc has a very long history going back to their youth but thanks to our liberal society we have to give them another chance.
Ah! I've got it. Execute at the first transgression and future crimes are prevented. Great work Hora, I always wondered why we didn't take our policies from the movies. Always seems so simple up there on the silver screen. Now then wheres the speakers Darth Vader outfit.....
PS: Don't you dare break the speed limit, otherwise its curtains for you m'lad
The sad fact is these people werent first time offenders and this is their 'second chance'. Any Policeman on here? I bet each murderer etc has a very long history going back to their youth but thanks to our liberal society we have to give them another chance.
So what if the previous offences weren't murder? You going to lock them up permanently for shop lifting? This isn't minority report.
Agree that life should mean life and Peadophiles are mentally ill so shouldn't be released.
No Im talking about the 'started their crim record at 13, lots of different convictions ending with their first murder'.
The two yardie lads who were locked up recently will get out in their late 40's. Does that mean they will be 'safe' then? Is that guaranteed? They've paid their 'dues' to soceity. Hmmmm, I think if you murder someone you should expect it back.
Hora - in that sort of case it simply strengthens the case for effective rehabilitation before they murder to prevent that murder.
anyway - the vast majority of murders are not like that - they are domestic incident s of one sort or another - ie it is someone known to the victim who murders in temper
And finally - life does mane life. they are released from jail on parole once the parole board believe that they do not represent a danger to society. They remain on parole and are subject to recall to jail at any time for any reason.