[Closed] Foooooook! Why can't they name the fecker?!

You find my posts amusing BigButSlimmerBloke ? Excellent !

*sings*

[i] Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life... [/i]

Junkyard: "Perhaps you are saying that if we had killed them that no child would have been harmed since?"

[b]No revenge intended[/b] but merely stating the system does not work. Those that deserve to take on the most severe form punishment should simply just that. Severe ... and not some "rehabilitation" sort of "holiday camp", where they spend their lives in "luxury" for few months or short period of time.

Death penalty is nothing but reducing the head count of the criminals that deserve them. The rest that are consider conducting crime such as murder should simply think twice.

Prevent or not the present system does not work.

Prevent or not the present system does not work.

I haven't murdered anyone this week.

So yes, the 'system seems to be working'.

Although hang on ..................

[i]"holiday camp", where they spend their lives in "luxury" for few months or short period of time[/i] - you say ?

Mmmm ........*scratches chin*

Chewkw - clasic daily wailism.

and not some "rehabilitation" sort of "holiday camp", where they spend their lives in "luxury" for few months or short period of time.

Rehabilitation reduces crime. Vengeance does not. Which do you want? Yes our judicial system is not what it might be - simply because we lock up too many people for too long without enough rehabilitation. Re offending rates are very high - because of the lack of rehabilitation.

I ask you again - which do you want - long punitive sentences that are hard labour or a reduction in crime. You cannot have both.

Go and do some reading. I suggest the Writings of Jonathon Aitken or Erwin James for starters. Then a bit of Durkheim on crime and punishment.

The vast majority of criminals are ill educated and often illiterate, frequently mentally ill and so on. Punitive sentencing makes it more likely they will reoffend and increase the severity of their crimes

You are ignorant and stupid and have no conception of reality on this. Have you ever been in a prison?

ernie_lynch: " I haven't murdered anyone this week.

So yes, the 'system seems to be working'."

LOL! Yes, in that case the system works for you in preventing you from murdering others.

"I suggest the Writings of Jonathon Aitken or Erwin James for starters. Then a bit of Durkheim on crime and punishment."

Jesus!!! TJ. I am not interested in reading or knowing what they said but my opinion there should be an ultimate punishment. I am not interested in whether criminals are illiterate (bet some are even more educated then I am) or not.

I just want them [b]take out of society for good[/b]. Cramp them into 10 per cell is good enough for me or if space is a limitation then perhaps you should "free up some space".

There are many uneducated people but I doubt all of them are murders.

Reduction in head count of criminals.

Per capita (that means per person) the equivalent system would see about 9 people in the UK executed, that means under you model one cell would be freed up.

Well is crime in the increase or decrease in general?

If in the increase the present system is not working so what is the next way? Let it be?

CaptJon:"Given, in general, it is working, yeah, let it be."

Not massaging the statistic or playing with the classification or definition of crime I hope ... 😆

CaptJon: "Per capita (that means per person) the equivalent system would see about 9 people in the UK executed, that means under you model one cell would be freed up."

Why not give it a try and see what happens? See if it deters others more as I think criminals have forgotten the good old days of being hang.

Official stats. If you want to deny all facts presented then you're a numpty.

Any better chewkwisms?

Those that deserve to take on the most severe form punishment should simply just that.

There are many uneducated people but I doubt all of them are murders

just cant keep up

See if it deters others more as I think criminals have forgotten the good old days of being hang.

I did find something you posted I could agree with

some [criminals]are even more educated then I am

Why not give it a try and see what happens? See if it deters others more as I think criminals have forgotten the good old days of being hang.

Most aren't old enough. I don't think understand the implecations of what you're arguing for. Go and read some stuff on the topic. Seriously; it is an interesting debate.

So chewkw - lock up all criminals for ever. It costs around £30 000 a yeaar IIRC to lockup a criminal.
How are you going to pay for this?
Are you ever going to release them?
If you do release them how are you going to stop them reoffending?

Jesus!!! TJ. I am not interested in reading or knowing what they said but my opinion there should be an ultimate punishment. I am not interested in whether criminals are illiterate (bet some are even more educated then I am) or not.

And I am suggesting that if you had a little grounding in reality, learnt a little bit of the truth and took some notice of the opinions of those in a position to know then you might not utter such stupidities as you have been doing on this thread.

You are ignorant and unwilling to do anything to dissipate that ignorance. That is stupidity.

Jonathon Aitken I gave you as an example as he is a right winger. He used to be in favour of the sort of judicial system you envisage - until he went to jail himself and learnt the reality of the situation.

CaptJon: "Official stats. If you want to deny all facts presented then you're a numpty."

As long as they keep the ultimate penalty I have no question.

"Most aren't old enough. I don't think understand the implecations of what you're arguing for. Go and read some stuff on the topic. Seriously; it is an interesting debate."

Unfortunately that means perhaps a change of trend might be called for.

Junkyard : "Any better chewkwisms?"

You are too generous.

Can you answer the point.

Which do you want - punitive sentencing or reduction in crime? You can only have one or the other. this is a well proven fact.

In fact can you answer any points anyone has made on this thread?

TJ : "Jonathon Aitken I gave you as an example as he is a right winger. He used to be in favour of the sort of judicial system you envisage - until he went to jail himself and learnt the reality of the situation."

I am not a right nor a left winger as I think both are simple nutters loving themselves big time.

But take this ... if you need to understand life by going to jail then there is fundamentally wrong with the society or the system in the society.

"So chewkw - lock up all criminals for ever. It costs around £30 000 a yeaar IIRC to lockup a criminal."

Cramp them together and feed them less.

"How are you going to pay for this?"

Hard labour so they have to work to pay for their stay in there.

Are you ever going to release them?

Not until they serve their full sentence whatever length that is.

If you do release them how are you going to stop them reoffending?

Harder labour, feed them even less, cramp them in a even smaller cell and lengthier sentence.

There's this old book I read once. IIRC, there was a line in there that said 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. Now, what was the book called again? Oh yeah, the Bible. I expect the Q'ran has something to say on the matter, too.
There's a Buddhist saying, also: 'The life of a being wishing to harm the innocent can be taken without harm reflecting on the taker'
While I'm not what you could call religeous, I'm with the Buddhists on this one.

TandemJeremy - Member

Can you answer the point.

Which do you want - punitive sentencing or reduction in crime? You can only have one or the other. this is a well proven fact.

Whats that wooshing noise - the truth escaping right over your head

Count - an eye for an eye makes us all blind - Ghandi

TandemJeremy : "Which do you want - punitive sentencing or reduction in crime? You can only have one or the other. this is a well proven fact."

Jesuss (spanish please)! You call capital punishment punitive?

I want a reduction in crime via capital punishment for the most severe crimes. Henry VIII style if possible.

TJ your must be devilshy annoyed at always being right!

As it stands my personal opinion is that anyone the murders a child and is proven 100% (not without reasonable doubt) should be put to death.
If someone asked me to vote on it I would. Your musings about such and such writer hold no sway. I dont care about other peoples opinions, even if they have been to jail. Personal choice is just that.
In this case I really couldnt care whether the alleged murder has had a tough life, maybe not been able to get the grades he wanted or even coulndn't read or write. He is alleged to have killed a very young and defenceless child and having read some of the reports it appears that he is going to get convicted of that. He is of no use to society now. Unless you want to donate him to Medical science or something like that.
I happen to know a couple of jailbirds coming from a less than salubrious background myself and they do happen to view being sent down for a stretch as a break from reality.
My opinion is that the reason that society is going down that pan quickly is that there are two many bleeding heart liberals looking out for the criminals rather than looking out for the victims.

Shands - crime is down over the last ten years significantly so our society is not "going down the pan". This is a moral panic cooked up by the press to sell newspapers.

The fact of the matter is our judicial system does nothing to reduce crime - it perpetuates it by its very nature as you would know if you had any knowledge of the subject.

We don't know the full facts of this case and I am not attempting any defence apart from saying that I bet he is both mentally ill and not "maybe not been able to get the grades he wanted or even couldn't read or write. " but educationally subnormal. There is a significant difference. I might be right I might be wrong. My guess. The thread quickly diverged into a more general case.

You don't care about other peoples opinions or writings. You prefer to make your opinions in ignorance?

Chewkw -

I want a reduction in crime via capital punishment for the most severe crimes. Henry VIII style if possible.

and explain to me how this works? The experience from worldwide is that it does not. The threat of capital punishment would not have deterred this boy from killing

Ts! Ts! Ts! TJ ...

I have given you some good suggestions above.

So what you say?

CountZero: "There's a Buddhist saying, also: 'The life of a being wishing to harm the innocent can be taken without harm reflecting on the taker'"

Count ... hold the horse there.

[b]Need to define "wishing to harm" carefully as your sentence above might be misinterpreted as allowing to kill so long as there is someone trying to harm you.[/b]

There is a delicate debate on this but ultimately the act of defending oneself by killing the assailant(s) can only be last resort. One wrong move and the negative karma accumulation is severe for the person that kills.

chewkw - Member

Ts! Ts! Ts! TJ ...

I have given you some good suggestions above.

So what you say?

I say stupid unworkable suggestions without any thought or idea of reality.

Shands

I happen to know a couple of jailbirds coming from a less than salubrious background myself and they do happen to view being sent down for a stretch as a break from reality.

any how awful must their reality be if prison is preferable. Have you been inside prisons? I have

TJ: "...and explain to me how this works? The experience from worldwide is that it does not. The threat of capital punishment would not have deterred this boy from killing."

Ts! Ts! Ts! But your present system does not deter too ... so what you say? We are in a dead lock here so it boils down to cost of "rehabilitation" but I have given my suggestions above.

Also ...

If this boy is mentally ill that is different story but if he is sane than another story. It is up to the lawyers now.

My opinion is that the reason that society is going down that pan quickly is that there are two many bleeding heart liberals looking out for the criminals rather than looking out for the victims.

You should write a book.

TJ : "I say stupid unworkable suggestions without any thought or idea of reality."

Never try never know.

Give it a go and see how it works.

Chewkw - rehabilitation that prevents crime saves more money than it costs

I would say a child that kills is mentally ill by definition. a very arguable point I agree.

However - enough - please have a read of Aitkens stuff - it really is very worthwhile.

[img] [/img]

Crime might be down in general but levels of violent crime have risen expotentially. As for the authors you suggest one has become a born again christian whilst serving a stretch and the other is also a convicted criminal who now happens to write for that bastion of all things good (ha) the guardian.
So your advocatating that we should put our criminal justice system into the hands of convicted criminals and that would make a better socitey. What utter nonsense you spout!
I feel the youth of today (may I feel old sometimes)have little or no respect for peoples or property and maybe a system like they have Maricopa County might help to avert us from the slippery slope we are on. Maybe we are to late.

Shands - violent crime has not risen exponentially - you are simply wrong on that. There have been rises and falls over the last ten years.

I think aitken has something to add to the debate. His conversion from hanger and flogger to a believer in rehabilitaion is quite fascinating. Have you read his writings? I have.

I am interested in what works, not pandering to the knee jerk desire for vengeance.

Punitive systems are in action in the states and China as well as here- they simply do not work. Proven.

TandemJeremy: " Chewkw - rehabilitation that prevents crime saves more money than it costs.

It costs even less by my method above by putting 10 to a cell and by feeding them less and on hard labour.

"However - enough - please have a read of Aitkens stuff - it really is very worthwhile."

Like I said before if one needs to understand how to differentiate right from wrong by going to jail then there is a fundamentally wrong with the society. i.e. insane in the main brain.

Jail is hell. People go there to regret or in some cases not. People suffer in there no doubt about it and compassion is extended to those that are willing to help themselves first by completely undergoing whatever sentence given to them may it be capital.

TJ ... you may have contracted Stockholm syndrome?

There is compassion for those that kills but what they deserve is what the society gives. That is their karma. No matter how severe the sentence given and if one understand that one has committed heinous crime and accept the punishment fully there is help but if one reoffends then they deserve all that are given to them.

"Executing a murderer is not justified, but it is sometimes necessary for the public good. Even a pack of wolves will drive off a mad dog. If he cannot be driven away, and find his death elsewhere, then they will kill it. The rat does not steal, the cat does not murder. Each acts according to his nature. So too, it is with Man."

Ashida Kim on War

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8113182.stm ]BBC News - Boy 'tried to eat toy sandwiches'[/url]

Rehabilitation for the parents? I rather like to put them to hard labour, feed them less and cramp them into a 10 person cell.

chewkw - Member

"Insane in the main brain"

😯

Are people really suggesting that we should execute a 15 year old child with mental problems? Amazing.

Is he really ill or is it a line of defence? If the former, lock him and try to help. Otherwise - no mercy IMO.

I want a reduction in crime via capital punishment for the most severe crimes

We have worked this out but can you give us some examples of where this has worked ?
There is no relationship betwewen the death penalty and murder or indeed crime rates. it actually seems to be less effective.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

Eighty-eight percent of the country's top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide

The removal of capital punishment from the Canadian Criminal Code in 1976 has not led to an increase in the murder rate in Canada. In fact, Statistics Canada reports that the murder rate has generally been declining since the mid-1970s. In 2006, the national murder rate in Canada was 1.85 homicides per 100,000 population, compared to the mid-1970s when it was around 3.0.

Perhaps if you know you will be killed if you are caught you are more likely to kill someone to escape ?

Stop trying to confuse matters with your sensible arguments and convincing statistics, SOMEONE NEEDS TO DIE!!!

I've been in to a lot of prisons, 40+ from Dispersals to YOIs.

None of them are holiday camps, some, Leyhill for example have less strict regimes but make no mistake you have no liberty and you certainly can't get out for a ride in the Cotswolds.

I remember one story a governor told me at Thorncross in Warrington, about a lad who had been neglected all his life, who's parents had ignored him, not cared for him and basically kicked him out at 15, the lad survived by stealing, food, then cars, then whatever he could, I don't recall if there was any violence involved but eventually he was sent to the YOI.

Here they offered a 'boot camp', 3 months of getting up at 6am, education and discpline, you didn't have to do it, but if you did then they guarenteed a job at the end, this lad struggled at first and eventually succeeded and completed the course.

The governor told me how much it meant to get a letter from the lad a couple of years later thanking him for helping him get a trade (think it was bricklaying, they could do decorating, plastering, motor mechanics and so on) and that he was now working, had a girlfriend and a flat.

I heard plenty more stories like this, it was inspirational to see the commitment the staff made to ensuring that those in their care were helped to make amends for their past by turning their lives around, I find it incredibly disrespectful to them when I read threads like this or read newspaper decrying attempts to rehabilitate.

We should always always always try to help each other, even if the crimes are heinous, if one or two can be helped to make a positive contribution, even if it is from behind bars, that must always be the first and favoured option.

As ususal with these threads, what the likes of the hang em and flog em brigade spectacularly fail to realise is that the current regime is not working, neither did capital or for that matter corporal punishment.

Simply put, a reasonable definition of insanity is to do something that doesn't work, then repeat it incessantly expecting a different outcome. So how about we collectively MTFU in this area, and let the folks who actually handle this sh1t, have a proper run at dealing with the thing, with appropriate funding and resources, other than spouting utter bollocks all the time?

Nick

I agree with what you have said above (I too occassionally have to visit both young offender and high category prisons) but isn't there a vast difference between this alleged crime and the relatively minor misdemeanours carried out in your example ?

Some acts are so inhuman that society should never again be placed at risk by allowing the perpetrator back into that society.

Simply put, a reasonable definition of insanity is to do something that doesn't work, then repeat it incessantly expecting a different outcome.

Bit like TJ on this thread and many others 🙄

Some acts are so inhuman that society should never again be placed at risk by allowing the perpetrator back into that society.

By killing them?

And who should get to decide that? Dedicated, experienced and trained professionals, or some people who read about it on the internet?

That is a good case for rehabilitation. That is one good case. How many more convicted criminals have just learnt more criminal activities in jail. I believe that the moral fabric of society is breaking down due to the excessively lenient sentencing that is occuring. Too many times the media have publicised cases of crimes going un-punished or by using some great social experiment to try to prevent them commiting any more crime.
It hasn't worked. Here's an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment. That would appease all you looney lefty types that think the criminal have been done wrong by. For us who think that they should be suitably punished for trespassing against us will get our justice.
Or will that lead to more looney lefties getting killed because the criminal fraternity will learn whos best to attack and whos not!

That is one good case. How many more convicted criminals have just learnt more criminal activities in jail.

That is because they are not rehabilitated!

Here's an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment.

And that really is a recipe for justice!

That would appease all you looney lefty types that think the criminal have been done wrong by.

And who has said that and where?

I simply am pragmatic on this. I want to see crime reduced. From much research worldwide it is clear that reducing the causes of criminal behaviour is the best way to do this. This means rehabilitation of the offenders and removal of inequalities in society along with other measures that the daily wail brigade decry.

It is simple - rehabilitation works, punitive punishments don't.