[Closed] Finally, the SNP start talking about real issues....

[quote=jambalaya ]It's a condition of joining the EU now that you commit to a schedule for joining the euro.It a condition of joining the Euro that your existing currency must fulfill certain criteria. I'll leave you to work that one out.

Scotland could not be independent and keep the pound whilst being a member of the EU.

Scotland doesn't have the financial rescources to stand on it's own as Salmond knows it.

Can't we just give London it's independence? If not I'd like Scotland to include Everything North of Hartlepool.

[i]The UK is independent, kept the pound and is part of the EU. And they're not alone.[/i]

But the UK is already before the Euro was 'invented'.

The key indicator for me is if I thought the Scottish Politicians would still behave as though they'd the UK Exchequer behind them, then they couldn't be trusted with independence.

They need to now realise we've only a couple of million paying the bills and spend accordingly, ie budget to income, not ability to tax and borrow.

[quote=b r ]
They need to now realise we've only a couple of million paying the bills and spend accordingly, ie budget to income, not ability to[b] tax and borrow[/b].
Isn't that what the current (and previous) UK lot do?

jambalaya - Member

Scotland doesn't have the financial rescources to stand on it's own as Salmond knows it.

Not sure if you're trolling, or just very poorly informed. Not even the tories pretend this is true any more.

There is, I suppose, another explanation for the SNP’s apparently self-contradictory position: which is that with outright nationalists still a persistent minority within Scotland, they will win a “yes” in next year’s referendum only by securing the votes of those who are not certain of the wisdom of secession. Thus, Salmond offers them continued post-independence allegiance to the Queen as head of state and the Sovereign’s head on coins in Scottish pockets.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-can-salmond-argue-scotland-shouldnt-have-its-own-currency-8584206.html ]Interesting piece from Dominic Lawson in the Indy today.[/url]

Keep the english pound ? Won't that be a long way for people from Inverness to drive to get to the bank machine ??

How about we make potatoes the currency ? Sorry, tatties.

(a) It's the the Independent (there's irony for you)
(b) The position isn't "self contradictory"
(c) How dare the Yes campaign have policies attractive to the majority of voters.

grum - Member

I seriously think that if Scotland does get independence there should be a campaign to allow the North of England to become part of it (if you'll have us). I know it will never happen but I would say we have a lot more in common with Scotland than with the south east of England/London.

I think you will find anyone north of the border would welcome any part of Northern England to join up. Make the border a line just north of Blackpool (sorry :lol:) across to Hornsea.

Now that sounds good to me. All the best bits of the UK in one new country, i dont know why the SNP doesnt through that one out there.

@Northwind - not trolling at all. We are living in a world where countries need scale to survive, I'm not at all sure an independent Scotland would be granted membership of the EU and outside it they would screwed.

Read the indie article this morn, there are indeed some interesting points raised.

Reminded me of this Rothchild quote...

"Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."

We are living in a world where countries need scale to survive

Looking at Scandinavia and the Nordics, they seem to be doing pretty well.

I'm not at all sure an independent Scotland would be granted membership of the EU and outside it they would screwed.

Like Norway?

franksinatra - Member
I just worry that the only people I know who would vote for independence are those who list Braveheart as one of their favourite films....

Braveheart is not one of my favourite films. I will be voting for independence. Why - because I think it will give my kids a better future.

Like Norway?

If those beer prices ever made it to Scotland............... 😯

What the 'yes' campaign need a few examples of how they'd make Scotland a better place to be for its citizens, because this is actually all that matters. And also to be honest of where they think we'll have problems.

And what anyone who doesn't live in Scotland thinks, is irrelevent - they don't live here.

they don't live here

Not Scotland, but they might live in the UK. Which will be somewhat effected by it all.

B r , totally agree with your comment. At the moment, I just don't see enough talk that convinces me that the independence sought by the snp is worth it.

At the moment I think as a scot, we have enough of an identity nationally and internationally, that makes us differentiated and independent people.

As per the original post, the hurdles to overcome and the as far as I can see, the lack of evidence to convince me they are worth jumping over , makes me think no at the moment.

fisha - you need to ask yourself this... Are you happy with the way the UK is currently being run and the direction in which it is travelling. If so, that's great. Stick with it and vote No. If you're not happy, then ask yourself what chance there is of it changing. If you can foresee a better future within the UK, then again vote No.

sr,

I'll likely never be happy with the way the country is run. 🙂 I think at the moment I fall into the latter half of your post.

but its not so much that I see a better future by being in the uk, more that I'm not convinced that a yes for independence would [i]by default[/i] create a better scotland, which is the impression I get from the incessant 'it will be better...' that is put forward by the SNP.

I want to be told: 'it will be better ... because of / and this is why ...' but I feel at the moment that such follow up isnt there, instead I feel its:

UK Bloke: 'Alex, you'll need to fully apply to the EU from scratch...(or some similar, reasonable question)'

Alex: 'Yer arse man, we're Scots, pure braw n that. us gallus independent jocks will get in the EU bae bother pal.'

UK Bloke:'but seriously Alex, how will you overcome EU issues?'

Alex: 'Look see fellow daily record/sun reading Scotlanders (pointing to uk bloke), see how this shandy drinking fool mocks our independence cause ... he knows nothing... freeeeeedooom .... 'mon the scots....'

Daily [s]Rangers[/s] Record reader in ned voice: 'haaaaaaw haaaaaaw maaan, Alex's puure put the malky to that dobba maaaan, whiut a daftie maaaan, courtney-versace ... gonnae look after the wean whilst ah go n get ma script? ... pure hope the polis dinnae see me ... bet ahve got a warrant fur me no paying that fine maaaann. That Alex's the business ... says i'll get mare pay in ma giro ... ah'll vote aye man nae bother like fur independence'

----------------

and so the questions still remain unanswered.

me? cynical? 🙂

Scottish votes haven't decided the outcome of a Westminster election since at least the War

Have you checked that with Nick Clegg?

2010 without Scotland:
Conservative, 305
Labour, 217
LibDem, 46
Others, 23
Total, 591
Conservative majority, 19

unfortunately you can't check with Wilson or Heath

Feb 1974 without Scotland:
Conservative, 275
Labour, 261
Liberal, 11
Others, 17
Total, 564

Oct 1974 without Scotland:
Conservative, 260
Labour, 278
Liberal, 10
Others, 16
Total, 564

are you suggesting that Wilson might have formed a government when not the leader of the largest party, or managed 5 years with a minority government?

I'm not Scottish so my personal view is probably unimportant but a cursory of the key questions is quite interesting - there are precious few answers to questions such as:

- Can the 1.2m workers in the private sector in Scotland support the remaining 4m population including the roles in the public sector, the young, old, sick and unemployed?

- What are the additional direct costs of independence e.g. picking up a share of the bank bailout / RBS bailout costs, adding an extra layer of civil service roles etc?

- What's the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in....

- Are comparisons with the Scandinavian countries wishful thinking or good bell weathers for a future independent state?

- What are the costs of delayed entry to the EU if as seems to be the case automatic entry is not possible?

- If it goes wrong, what's the plan B, and assuming plan B needs support from south of the border, what will happen if this support isn't forthcoming?

- What's the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in....

I thought this had been shown to largely be a myth?

- What's the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in....

I think this is bollocks, is it not?

[quote=piemonster ]- What's the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in....

I think this is bollocks, is it not?
As is most of the rest of that post. I don't blame the poster (robdixon) for that. It's more to do with the amount of dis-information that has been around for so long.

- What's the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in..

IMO the fact there's still debate over whether or not Scotland makes more than it receives means the question is still open. It's unlikely to be "significantly more", though: if it were, the debate would have been won by now.

Scotland gives more to the exchequer than it receives - £9.6bn vs. £9.3bn or something like that.

[i]Not Scotland, but they might live in the UK. Which will be somewhat effected by it all.

[/i]

But it's the Scots voting to stay/leave, not the rest of the UK voting to keep or get rid of them - therefore the view of the rest of the UK IS irrelevent.

What's the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in....

In 2012 Scotland raised 9.6% of UK revenue, received 9.3% of spending and has 8.6% of the population.

Unemployment in Scotland is below the UK average

So the additional cost will be zero

br: You appear to be viewing it purely as a matter of effecting the outcome for Scotland. Which is fair enough.

I'm viewing it more as to the overall effects of the Unions dynamics. Scottish Independence would effect more than just the Scots. In this context the opinions of those outside Scotland do matter.

There are consequences to actions, and they'll need to be addressed.

The choice of whether independence happens is a matter for those who live there.

But it's the Scots voting to stay/leave, not the rest of the UK voting to keep or get rid of them

Actually it's the people on the electoral roll in Scotland who get to vote, so that includes resident foriegn nationals. It doesn't include a number of notable Scots nationalists 😉

therefore the view of the rest of the UK IS irrelevent.

What is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander 😉

It seems to me that successful long term Scots independence really depends on whether more North Sea oil is found (there are some interesting discoveries coming along) and this gives Scotland a chance to build up a National Wealth Fund like Norway (which you would do now if you hadn't been part of the UK). This would give the backing to make Scotland prosper, give big infrastructure funds, develope large scale long term carbon free energy etc..

Without this money, Scotland is essential a small and not very prosperous country (for instance the local area where I live the combined property value is greater than the whole of Glasgow [url= http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29afc54a-6c80-11e2-b73a-00144feab49a.html#axzz2RSiSvLJs ]FT article[/url] which is obscene BTW) I've lived there and travelled all over, really like it but I feel that independence would be an oil gamble.

Or perhaps a windy gamble

To be fair, most economic policies for future prosperity look like "gambles" to me.

Without this money, Scotland is essential a small and not very prosperous country (for instance the local area where I live the combined property value is greater than the whole of Glasgow FT article which is obscene BTW)

I'm not really sure what a property bubble supported by banking bonuses and rich foreign [s]gangsters[/s] emigres has to do with Scotland's prosperity.

UK GDP per Capita $38,589. Scotland GDP per capita $43,492.

Without London, England would be completely screwed. Without England Scotland will be okay

Without London, England would be completely screwed.

IIRC London is subsidised by the rest of the country.

London and the SE of England are the only parts of the UK (other than Scotland) that run "at a profit". They support the rest. I'm not suggesting this is a good thing.

How are those figures even calculated? If Sainsburys makes more all over the UK but it gets reported to the revenue from its Holborn office, does that mean London gets the credit?

Bollocks! You're not telling me Blackpool isn't profitable!

Alex Salmond once claimed that Scotland would be the 5th richest (GDP per capita) country in the world. This claim has since been debunked by independent analysts. It would, in fact, only be the 15th.....

Has anyone looked into the "Company HQ" effect? By that I mean lots of companies have their head office in London, but the actual work is done elsewhere - so the money appears to be made in London when it isn't.

Edit: What Konabunny just said 😉

[i]Actually it's the people on the electoral roll in Scotland who get to vote, so that includes resident foriegn nationals. It doesn't include a number of notable Scots nationalists [/i]

Yes I realise that, as I remind my fellow 'Scots' - then they say I'm an Englishman, and I tell them there is no such thing as English, Welsh, Scots etc as we all share the same passport.

As I live here and am on the roll, I'll be voting.

[i]Without this money, Scotland is essential a small and not very prosperous country (for instance the local area where I live the combined property value is greater than the whole of Glasgow FT article which is obscene BTW) I've lived there and travelled all over, really like it but I feel that independence would be an oil gamble. [/i]

No, without it we'd have to do/try something else.

Poach jobs from England? Here's an idea, on independence we could get rid of Employers NI in Scotland, saving business upwards of 10% of their payroll costs.

Or set our corporation tax at 10% for companies where x% of jobs are based here etc etc.

And we could be more social, as the Scandic's are - which would suit the more 'left-leaning' current voting suggests we are.

Thats sounding dangerously like Alex's famous 'arc of prosperity' speech. Which turned out to be entirely credible. 😆

Company HQ effect is tiny, I wrote this some time ago on here to illustrate:

London & SE Corporation Tax/Total Corporation Tax tax is 35.46%, London & SE Total Tax/Total tax is 33.3% so Corporation Tax seem to be allocated in more or less the same proportion as other taxes. Corporation Tax is also a pretty small part of the total tax take - 7%

scotroutes - Member
Alex Salmond once claimed ..... This claim has since been debunked by independent analysts.

A first, I wonder?

Company HQ effect is tiny

Yeah, I mean none of these companies pay much corporation tax anyway. 😉

I thought the thing about London being subsidised was more that so many government jobs/contracts etc are based in London, and London soaks up a disproportionately large amount of money spent on things like transport infrastructure, for example. Could be wrong though.

You're not telling me Blackpool isn't profitable!

Stag and hen parties - it's the future of our economy.

You're not telling me Blackpool isn't profitable!

I find this concentration on the financial implications a bit depressing and pointless. Politicians on both sides will represent/misrepresent the economic situation to suit their own argument. And the electorate are then left to decide, purely illogically, on whom they believe.

You don't divorce your wife (or husband) purely on the basis that you will be a few pounds a week better off. Equally Scotland shouldn't decide to leave the UK purely on the basis of whether we will be a few pounds better or worse off.

I will be voting NO because I am very happy to be Scottish and British.
I would like to see a refocussing of all like minded UK citizens on a clearer and better identity for the UK/Britain.
English people have long had a very confused view of England/Britain (often not seeming to know the difference!)which antagonises the rest of the UK. I would like to see English people being proud to be English AND British (and knowing what the difference is) and I think long term we all need to develop a stronger sense of Britishness (without embracing UKIP).

London does get certain "centre of it all" benefits- company hq effect isn't massive but company and government centralisation is pretty significant- lots of high earners in the City, staff in the finance departments lots of civil servants, government and ngos drawn together in/around westminster... All of these paid for nationally but acting locally. Wealth gets drawn to administrative centres. Edinburgh gets it too on a smaller scale

robdixon - Member

- What are the additional direct costs of independence e.g. picking up a share of the bank bailout / RBS bailout costs.

Scotland has already picked up a share of the bank bailout costs, what with being part of the UK.

aracer - Member

are you suggesting that Wilson might have formed a government when not the leader of the largest party, or managed 5 years with a minority government?

Any response to this anyone? I've seen the "never since the war" argument many times, first time I've seem it contradicted.

I'm against the whole idea of independence on totally personal and probably emotional and possibly irrational grounds, which is as logical as most of the grounds I have heard for being pro independence.

1. The SNP are a bunch of racists. It's subtle, but it's there. That whole thread of "Scottishness" that runs through their policies is a very white protestant highland view of Scotland. They said it couldn't happen in Germany.

2. I have a flat in Edinburgh I am sitting on intending to sell when the market improves. If independence is voted in and the big companies go back to London, all the South of England folk who live up here will sell their property and head back to the Home Counties. Property prices will plummet.

As I say, it's a rational as some tartan clad idea of "a better life for my kids".

The SNP are a bunch of racists

Thats a pretty heft claim 😯

Labour had a majority of 4 with 319 seats in Oct 74 out of 634 (excl Speaker) including 41 out of 71 seats in Scotland. Tories has 276 incl. 16 Scots. Excluding Scotland, 278 Labour seats vs 563 total is no overall majority by 7. but they would have been the largest party by 18 seats.

and a comparison to the Nazi Germany 🙄

Yes perhaps they will burn your flat down whilst purging the nation of non picts .. WOW what an odd argument and you lived up to the non rational bit

2. I have a flat in Edinburgh I am sitting on intending to sell when the market improves. If independence is voted in and the big companies go back to London, all the South of England folk who live up here will sell their property and head back to the Home Counties. Property prices will plummet.

Ah, "sitting on", terribly nice of you old bean, quick sell it before independence or Big Eck will give you a shilling for it when you tootle off to the home counties with your mates. 🙄

hels - Member

1. The SNP are a bunch of racists. It's subtle, but it's there

Well if you don't like it you can **** off back where you came from!

(disclaimer- not serious. I need Hels to stay in scotland and make mountain bike races)

That well-known white protestant SNP MSP Humza Yousef

[img] [/img]

You want a white protestant viewpoint?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/orange-order-mobilise-to-defend-union-1-1361741

[quote=robbespierre ]I find this concentration on the financial implications a bit depressing and pointless. Politicians on both sides will represent/misrepresent the economic situation to suit their own argument. And the electorate are then left to decide, purely illogically, on whom they believe.
You don't divorce your wife (or husband) purely on the basis that you will be a few pounds a week better off. Equally Scotland shouldn't decide to leave the UK purely on the basis of whether we will be a few pounds better or worse off.
I will be voting NO because I am very happy to be Scottish and British.
You will always be British, no matter what happens in 2014 (well - unless a rUK PM finally manages to get Englandandwales dragged across to the East Coast of the US.)

But I agree with the rest of your sentiment. Many folk have put forward their view that a society governed by Holyrood would be a different/better one that we currently have. Much of the financial argument on this thread has been put up to counter the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" mantra of the Unionists but it should not be the only consideration.

Yup. The importance of the financial argument is feasibility not profitability- it's great that we will come out ahead, but the real question was just whether or not it would be financial disaster.

Course, we've established that it won't be but lots of people refuse to believe it, so now we should probably be moving on from the financial argument, to the financial convincing.

The SNP are a bunch of racists

The SNP rep that's come round doing door to door work amuses me.

Starts of all cheery and positive, I say something and its like he's just lost bowel control. Can't get away fast enough.

I quite like the fact it's the same guy but he forgets.

Last time he came round (3rd time) I kept quiet for ages. Might try blagging a Scottish accent if there's a fourth visit.

[quote=piemonster ]
Starts of all cheery and positive, I say something and its like he's just lost bowel control. Can't get away fast enough.
Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?

Course, we've established that it won't be but lots of people refuse to believe it, so now we should probably be moving on from the financial argument, to the financial convincing.

I'd like someone to explain to me what the SNP think the currency will be that would be in use after independence. That's what this thread started with, and I still haven't seen a convincing answer.

What I've seen so far suggests they don't want to discuss that topic because they don't very much like the answer themselves.

However, I suspect I won't get a straight answer.

Orkney Ale thank you very much

[quote=oldnpastit ]
I'd like someone to explain to me what the SNP think the currency will be that would be in use after independence. That's what this thread started with, and I still haven't seen a convincing answer.
What I've seen so far suggests they don't want to discuss that topic because they don't very much like the answer themselves.
However, I suspect I won't get a straight answer.
The SNP think the currency will be the Pound Sterling. That's your straight answer right there. It's not a mystery and has been SNP policy for over two years. It's been discussed several times in this thread already.

he SNP think the currency will be the Pound Sterling. That's your straight answer right there. It's not a mystery and has been SNP policy for over two years. It's been discussed several times in this thread already.

I guess I'm going to have to be disappointed then.

They can't promise to have a full currency union with the rest of the UK. We've all seen the disaster that the Eurozone has become because of a lack of any kind of political union. So a full currency union would require a political union to work. That in turn requires agreement on *both* sides. I don't see how the SNP can promise that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will agree up-front to something that might suit the SNP and yet hasn't even been discussed.

The alternative is that they just use sterling in the way that Panama uses the dollar. Scotland would then have as much control over the currency as Panama gets over the dollar - i.e. none whatsoever.

So, which of these choices do the SNP think they are going to adopt? Both are pretty dreadful, and in comparison, a new currency (c.f. Norway) seems pretty tempting.

But I don't think I'll get an answer to this question. Maybe I've just made it too long for the interwebs to understand?

[quote=oldnpastit ]
So, which of these choices do the SNP think they are going to adopt?..... I don't think I'll get an answer to this question. Maybe I've just made it too long for the interwebs to understand?
The SNP think the currency will be the Pound Sterling.

The Yes campaign and a number of independent analysts have already pointed out that it would be in the interest of the rUK to share a currency with an independent Scotland. But you're right - a rUK government could decide not to enter a currency union out of spite. I guess that an informal currency union might then be adopted, much as Australia, New Zealand, RoI and others did. Or maybe a post-independence Scottish Govt will decide to take a different approach. There's no guarantee that the SNP will remain in power for ever or will always have the same policies. Perhaps a currency union with Norway would be on the cards?

You don't need a political union to use another countries currency.

But you're right - a rUK government could decide not to enter a currency union out of spite

Pre-referendum I expect this to be laid out as a likely eventuality.

Post-referendum not a chance. Business comes first.

[i]The alternative is that they just use sterling in the way that Panama uses the dollar. Scotland would then have as much control over the currency as Panama gets over the dollar - i.e. none whatsoever.[/i]

And maybe that'll be fine, might even work out cheaper overall as there would be no 'cost to change'.

I think they should create their own currency, using historical examples.

I bloody love the idea of paying for something with a Half-Unicorn.

You don't need a political union to use another country's currency.

...provided you're happy for that other country to ignore your needs. For example, if you find that you need to print a lot of money in a hurry to sort out your banks, or cut interest rates because your economy is in the doldrums, you would be out of luck. That other country has absolutely no reason to oblige you. You'll just have to hope they do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

EDIT: Independent currency seems most believable to me.

No you don't need political union to use another countries currency. But who would voluntarily enter into a currency agreement with a country who's government is presently going to be regarding you as, at best, a right royal PITA? I wouldn't be expecting any favours.

But there's always the Euro option. That's worked out really well for smaller countries on the peripheries so far. Either way, if the scots think their economic priorities will be getting anything more than cursory consideration in any monetary union, they're delusional! Independence would inevitably lead to considerably less influence over economic policy, really

The ironing!

WOw it took you 5 pages I never knew you had such levels of self restraint 😉

piemonster - Member

Pre-referendum I expect this to be laid out as a likely eventuality.

Post-referendum not a chance. Business comes first.

Yup. Likely we'll run into what I think of as Independence Bullshit- the No campaign will demand hard facts on what will happen post-independence. Westminster will refuse to provide the same and instead will furnish us with scare stories. No campaign will pretend this is an argument against independence when the reality is it's another black mark against the UK government for resorting to dirty tricks.

The key question you need to ask about sterling-without-union is whether you expect UK-Minus-Scotland's intentions for the pound to be significantly different from Scotland's. It doesn't seem likely to me, our economies are so linked and interdependent that what's good for the goose will generally be good for the gander.

In the longer term, further changes are possible of course- the euro might conceivably un**** itself, or we might switch to a midge-based economy.

[quote=piemonster]
Starts of all cheery and positive, I say something and its like he's just lost bowel control. Can't get away fast enough.
Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?

* Sorry - I couldn't let that one lanquish at the bottom of page 4.

Bugger off

I wonder what you'd get for a Unicorn anyway?

Is that like an iPhone?

my fellow 'Scots' .... say I'm an Englishman, and I tell them there is no such thing as English, Welsh, Scots etc as we all share the same passport.

You don't divorce your wife (or husband) purely on the basis that you will be a few pounds a week better off. Equally Scotland shouldn't decide to leave the UK purely on the basis of whether we will be a few pounds better or worse off....I will be voting NO because I am very happy to be Scottish and British.
I would like to see a refocussing of all like minded UK citizens on a clearer and better identity for the UK/Britain.

The SNP are a bunch of racists. It's subtle, but it's there. That whole thread of "Scottishness" that runs through their policies is a very white protestant highland view of Scotland. They said it couldn't happen in Germany.

I have a flat in Edinburgh...If independence is voted in and the big companies go back to London, all the South of England folk who live up here will sell their property and head back to the Home Counties.

The alternative is that they just use sterling in the way that Panama uses the dollar. Scotland would then have as much control over the currency as Panama gets over the dollar - i.e. none whatsoever.

In any case, is it really true that Scottish economic needs would be that different from rUK's? Scotland is like a microcosm of the rUK economy: there's financial and professional services, high and low tech exports, and economic baskets cases all together. It's not like Nireland trying to go independent.

But who would voluntarily enter into a currency agreement with a country who's government is presently going to be regarding you as, at best, a right royal PITA?

Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?

Yup. Likely we'll run into what I think of as Independence Bullshit- the No campaign will demand hard facts on what will happen post-independence.

If we're being realistic, both sides will be spreading [i]Independence Bullshit[/i], and thickly.

mogrim - Member

If we're being realistic, both sides will be spreading Independence Bullshit, and thickly.

Yup, but there's bullshit and then there's Bullshit. Demanding something from the other side of an argument while withholding the information they need to respond, then blaming them when they can't, that's Bullshit.

No: Hey, what are we doing on friday night?
Yes: I don't know, I asked you if you fancy going to that restaurant but you never answered- we're all waiting for you to decide.
No: God, you're such a disorganised prick! Can't trust you with anything!

Or:
Yes: Hey, do you want to go to that restaurant?
No: No, I've checked with David Cameron and the only thing on the menu is dog poo sandwiches
Yes: That's rubbish! There's no chance they'll even offer that never mind serve it, it'd be mad
No: Dog poo sandwiches! You want to eat dog poo sandwiches!

Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?

Very good

🙁