I’ve already suggested the solution above. Go back and read it.
You've suggested waiving passport control because things got busy, that's not a solution that asking for special treatment and it's unworkable for the reasons others have laid out. You wouldn't start waiving people through airport passport control or security when things get busy would you?
What’s more important, bureaucratic box ticking or ensuring the safety of thousands of kids?
If by "bureaucratic box ticking" you mean controlling the border THAT WE ASKED FOR, and if by "ensuring the safety of thousands of kids" you mean stop Kids missing a day of skiiing, I'm going to think the EU will follow their normal border processes, it's not like they are being shot at or bombed is it.
Being delayed when travelling sucks, it happens, it's happened to me several times. Being stuck on the tarmac at Laguardia for 12 hours before even taking off, having my Eurotunnel booking cancelled due to a fire in the tunnel, and having 2 flights home from Edinburgh cancelled (24 hour delay) all being particular highlights.
Ever crossed the border from US into Mexico and then back again? Very different experiences depending on the direction of travel. I hate to break it to you but we're Mexico...
You wouldn’t start waiving people through airport passport control or security when things get busy would you?
Isn’t that what they did when Border Force went on strike?
you mean stop Kids missing a day of skiiing
One way of looking at it, but by no means the only or obvious one in a ‘first’ world country.
I reckon most of the delays you referenced were unforeseen as well as inconvenient.
What’s more important, bureaucratic box ticking or ensuring the safety of thousands of kids?
The bureaucratic box ticking was "taking back control" as the brexiteers kept reminding us.
The reason for "taking back control" was to apparently stop illegal immigration and keep us all safer.
And Europe is exercising it's control - as we knew it would from day 1.
I think it's important that it IS happening - I suspect the French do too.
Sticking a band-aid over the sucking chest wound of a poorly managed, chaotic exit from the EU only benefits the chancers who are still trying to sell it to you.
The lunacy of Brexit, and the ineptitude of the people we have charged with making it work, must be laid absolutely bare for everyone (and I mean everyone) to see. The way I see it, with every "crisis" like this, peoples appetite for real change increases.
I don't want people stuck on buses - but sometimes the only way that people learn is if they experience the consequences of their own actions. I'm obviously not suggesting that the people on the busses voted to Leave - I mean we, collectively.... or 53% of us anyway.
"why can't we all get around the table and figure this out?"
Because, the people we have chosen to "sort this out" are (at best) hopelessly, mindbendingly incompetent, or (at worst) deliberately sabotaging any effort to mitigate the effects of Brexit to benefit their mates/corporate donors and the UK gets asset-stripped.
Also, lol at "just make an exception and bend the rules..... but I'm not an exceptionalist"
I can't help thinking that this situation gives everyone what they want.
The Remainers get to blame the Brexiteers
The Brexiteers get to blame the French
The French get to blame the UK
just write the copy to suit your political position.
I can’t help thinking that this situation gives everyone what they want.
Apart from a ski trip...
you mean stop Kids missing a day of skiiing
No I coudn't GAS about the day's skiing, they've got 5 more so will be fine. I do give a shit however about my daughter and her mates being holed up on a cramped coach for 16 hours with not enough food and water, insufficient toilet breaks, and not being able to get out and get some exercise. This is a safety issue. Having thousands of kids stuck at a port with nowehere to go for that amount of time is not safe, end of.
but sometimes the only way that people learn is if they experience the consequences of their own actions.
Jeez! You think a load of 16 teenagers need to suffer so that we 'learn the lesson of brexit'?! You guys are really covering yourselves in glory here. Funny how the tables have turned and it's now the pro-EU side of this argument who come across as spiteful, selfish idiots.
On a positive note at least all those young people stuck on the coaches will have a first hand experience to guide them on which way to vote when the choice next gets put on the table.
Is it seriously beyond the abilities of both the french and UK authorities to sort out a temporary solution
Assuming that's not rhetorical, (because clearly; no it's not) I have to say either there was a solution and it was rejected, or no-one thought this would be an issue, and so it did indeed catch everyone by surprise. Or, there's a strike on. Which isn't at the ferry ports, but I can imagine they're probably stretched and rely on folks signing up for a bit of O/T, and that's not happening.
No one wants kids (or anyone really) to sit on a bus for 16 hours and miss a days holiday fun, but at the end of the day, it's not going to hurt them.
I don't think it's a good thing that thousands of people are getting stuck. I think it's where we are with the current govt. I don't think whining on STW is really going to have much effect, but feel free to campaign, demonstrate, join a political party, if you really feel strongly about it.
being holed up on a cramped coach for 16 hours with not enough food and water
Surely getting water and food to a queue of coaches is an easier problem to solve than the whole issue of border control requirements in a post Brexit world. If they can't tackle that one, what hope for the bigger picture?
Daz - overplaying your card a bit there. If it was a genuine safety issue, as in a proper one rather than just properly uncomfortable, they could have just sacked it off and come home. Their (as in the kids, teachers and drivers) opinion must surely have been that is was pretty tedious but ultimately worth it to get some sliding down a slipe. You don't sit in a queue having a genuine safety crisis (rather than a properly inconvenient and uncomfortable time) for want of a U turn. There's probably a political metaphor there somewhere too.
As an aside, genuinely can't remember, were you a Brexit voter?
Perhaps those finding the lack of border guards troubling could try complaining to their MEP about it?
As an aside, genuinely can’t remember, were you a Brexit voter?
Nope. 100% remain. Would vote to rejoin tomorrow if it was offered. See the hundreds of posts I've written on the brexit threads for more info. Based on what I read on here and elsewhere though I'm really beginning to dislike my association with the remainer side of this non-argument. Brexit is history, we need to move on and stop fighting pointless battles that have already been decided.
No I coudn’t GAS about the day’s skiing, they’ve got 5 more so will be fine. I do give a shit however about my daughter and her mates being holed up on a cramped coach for 16 hours with not enough food and water, insufficient toilet breaks, and not being able to get out and get some exercise. This is a safety issue. Having thousands of kids stuck at a port with nowehere to go for that amount of time is not safe, end of.
Genuine question, why is that on the French to fix? The issues you describe there could easily be sorted by the British government stepping in if it was causing a safety issue. Pop up toilets, food and water brought in, central reservations opened up to allow coaches to turn around and go home all offer a fix to those issues without having to rely on another country overlooking border controls and seem pretty fair responses in 'exceptional circumstances'.
I hate to say it but I feel far more sorry for the people that have to go through this mess numerous times a week/ month (ie truck drivers), than I do for the kids missing a day of annual their skiing trip..
The one silver lining is that somewhere in that queue is a brexit voting xxxtard who’s probably red in the face with rage about the inconvenience this has caused him..
The one silver lining is that somewhere in that queue is a brexit voting xxxtard who’s probably red in the face with rage about the inconvenience this has caused him..
Except they won't make the connection and/or believe any evidence.
! You guys are really covering yourselves in glory here. Funny how the tables have turned and it’s now the pro-EU side of this argument who come across as spiteful, selfish idiots.
There’s only one spiteful, selfish idiot on this thread. Posters have made reasonable points, backed up with facts, about the difficulty arising from the change in UK status with EU borders but all we get is your boorish invective of “just let them through, it’s kids going skiing” etc. No logic, no acceptance that it’s actually a complicated problem almost completely caused by UK factors just nasty little digs as you try to display yourself as some morally superior being - it’s quite dull tbh
Brexit is history, we need to move on
Clearly based on your own family’s experience this is not true. It’s just the beginning of the long fail and subsequent walk back to sanity.
The French have done nothing wrong. My son suffers the passport ignominy on a regular basis since he’s training in Spain. And now doesn’t have the right to work there or elsewhere other than Ireland, with a European license.
16 hours with not enough food and water
Really? were they under arrest on the bus and refused being able to get off and stretch thier legs, buy a sarnie and go to the bog?
No, they were simply in a queue at the border.
Brexit is history, we need to move on
Tell that to the starving ski trip kids on the bus, deprived from daylight and forced to sit in thier own bodily waste, hahah!
Genuine question, why is that on the French to fix?
For the same reason if there are massive queues for visitors coming into Heathrow, it is for us to fix.
You're not suggesting ceding Kent to the French are you? Or perhaps just the port of Dover and the M20 & A20?
Brexit is history, we need to move on and stop fighting pointless battles that have already been decided.
Why can't those that didn't want this point out the real world consequences to the ****knuckles who both campaigned for and voted for this AND be pragmatic about trying to find solutions?
In terms of solutions - well it appeared the French wanted to build (or have built for them) more booths and the government denied them. First suggestion would be for the government to climb down and do what was asked. 2nd would be to have a reality check with the UK population - getting into the EU is not as slick as moving between EU nation states - we can't build infrastructure to cope with the demand of a few peak days a year so some of you are going to have to do one and not go. Prebookeds only and even then be realistic about capacity. 3rd suggestion would be to heavily promote UK tourism as an alternative - less polluting miles and keep the tourist pound in the UK. If Scottish skiing doesn't appeal spent your (parents)hard earned on adventure weeks at UK centres - **** knows they need the business.
But requesting France renaiges on its Schengen requirements so that Tarquin and co can get through the border in vast numbers and get skiing which entirely predictably overwhelmed a system is arrogant in the extreme. We need to face facts - getting into the EU from outside of it is harder than moving within. Always was, always will be. That was kind of the point. That's the pointless battle that needs to be stopped. This is what Brexit voters (so the majority of the population) wanted and it works, so happy days - it needs celebrating. Only snag is most of them were only thinking about it in the other direction.
Whilst I agree with the majority on this thread about it not being simply a case of waving them through, I take issue with some posts suggesting it was 'just a queue'
Some of my daughters mates were in this debacle and stuck for almost 18 hrs. The texts she was getting were quite worrying. They couldn't just 'get off the bus and buy a sarnie' as some helpful soul posted - there was one costa coffee which had a 1.5 hr queue and mostly kept running out of everything which is pretty obvious when there were literally thousands of people needing food and water. The only supplies available were either already on the buses or those that were being organized by teachers and coach operators. It was haphazard at best and people were going without water for several hours. There were kids having panic attacks and you name it. There were about 10 toilets for the lot of them and they were filthy in hours. I would have been fairly concerned had my daughter been with her friends that basic sanitary and health needs were not being met.
To counter this there was a coach operator on PM yesterday evening that said basically all the coaches had to present details of numbers and booking references etc months in advance. So the port of Dover knew exactly how many passengers and vehicles and even reg numbers way in advance. It would be pretty obvious that the French would be making a point so why did they not at least prepare for this issue with supplies and portable toilets etc. This would have been fairly cheap and a win allround for the UK . Kids not put in (mild) danger, Port of Dover on the ball, Frenchies being French (yes yes yes I know its a result of our idiotic government and how they instigated brexit but we very much are where we are )
Bad management
Always bad management.
They couldn’t just ‘get off the bus and buy a sarnie’ as some helpful soul posted – there was one costa coffee which had a 1.5 hr queue
So they chose to starve to death/die in a pool of thier own excrement rather than getting off the bus in a 24hr queue and into a 1.5hr queue for costa or whatever?
Well I never, I must say I admire thier conviction.
You're being a nobber, tbh.
Those in the queue were not told how long they would be there. Once you were through passport control, you could not leave the "secure zone" to go for a wander. The ferry companies were not telling drivers which boat they were getting on - just sending them to randomly numbered queues and telling them to wait their turn. The docks are a fair walk from town. And you can't have 15 year olds wandering along the A road to some Tesco Express in Dover at 2am...
I'm as remoaner as they come, but some of you lot need to get over yourselves. When your "suck it up, Brexiteer ****er" attacks are directed at people who were in primary school at the time of the referendum...maybe it's time to touch some grass?
Some of my daughters mates were in this debacle and stuck for almost 18 hrs. The texts she was getting were quite worrying. They couldn’t just ‘get off the bus and buy a sarnie’ as some helpful soul posted – there was one costa coffee which had a 1.5 hr queue and mostly kept running out of everything which is pretty obvious when there were literally thousands of people needing food and water. The only supplies available were either already on the buses or those that were being organized by teachers and coach operators. It was haphazard at best and people were going without water for several hours. There were kids having panic attacks and you name it. There were about 10 toilets for the lot of them and they were filthy in hours. I would have been fairly concerned had my daughter been with her friends that basic sanitary and health needs were not being met.
Thank you. I really am shocked at the number of people on this thread who appear to be revelling in this so they can once again whine about brexit. One of the worst demonstrations of shithousery I've ever seen on this forum. 😕
so that Tarquin and co
FFS you do realise that most of the kids on these holidays are from normal working families who have never been skiing and will probably never go again because it's too expensive? These aren't rich kids going off to Courchevel in the half term and staying in a fully catered chalet.
Tell that to the starving ski trip kids on the bus, deprived from daylight and forced to sit in thier own bodily waste, hahah!
Nice!
*I see you've removed that comment Matty. What's up? suddenly realise what a **** you were being?
most of the kids on these holidays are from normal working families who have never been skiing and will probably never go again because it’s too expensive?
Very true. And even fewer will get this opportunity in future, because there will need to be fewer crossings at peak times (state school holidays) going forward (which probably also means higher prices). The Chunnel people have worked out the “new normal” for crossings, and the ports and ferry companies will need to as well, if they are to avoid this kind of mess in future years. The border has changed. Our holidays will need to as well. The rich won’t be affected by this change, kids from “normal” families will be.
Of course. And the latter is more important, because Brexit is here to stay. It’s the constant in this that isn’t going away. The UK government needs to listen to those running the crossings and double up the infrastructure. The French government needs to ensure staffing levels are much increased, long term and more importantly at peak periods. Companies and travellers need to change their planning and expectations. But we all know why these things need to happen in the first place.
The UK government needs to listen to those running the crossings and double up the infrastructure. The French government needs to ensure staffing levels are much increased, long term and more importantly at peak periods.
Very much this!
I would even go as far as saying UK Gov should (they won't) be paying the French Gov for more DCPAF (French Border Force) coverage.
FFS you do realise that most of the kids on these holidays are from normal working families who have never been skiing and will probably never go again because it’s too expensive? These aren’t rich kids going off to Courchevel in the half term and staying in a fully catered chalet.
Interesting you say this as it came up with Mrs C yesterday. I was one of those kids who got to go on a school ski trip (singular- though I went again as a young teacher a while later) but she didn't. It was beyond her family's means. The closest she got to going on the trip was getting up to wave off the coach as her wealthier friends set off. She vividly remembers the weeks after and feeling ostracised - as stories were told and she got the knowing look that said 'you weren't there, so you won't know'.
So yes, it's not all about posh kids (poor kids can be called Tarquin too) ; but they are still very pricey (what are they now - must be north of £600 for the week at a guess), way way too pricey for most UK families to sent their kid(s) on, and they do create an aftermath of division in anything other than the most middle class of state schools.
I would even go as far as saying UK Gov should (they won’t) be paying the French Gov for more DCPAF (French Border Force) coverage.
Surely it's up to the government whose citizens are being affected to sort out the issue.
Are many French taxpayers being inconvenienced to the point that they should funnel more resources into border control?
If not, how should the French government justify the extra spending to its voters?
I've got a feeling this is a British problem and it's up to the British government to sort out. So I'm sure it'll all be fine.
Surely it’s up to the government whose citizens are being affected to sort out the issue.
You clearly have never come across the concept of repriprocity.
You clearly have never come across the concept of repriprocity.
Generally reciprocity suggest both parties will benefit.
The UK has unilaterally created a problem (the French didn't vote for Brexit, after all). If the French had no part in creating this problem, is not being adversely affected by it, and doesn't really need anything from a country that has decided to isolate itself, then that's not reciprocity.
That's the UK expecting a favour done for them because it is the UK.
Also known as exceptionalism.
French exporters (of tourism, as a particular example) and importers (of anything) don't benefit from France-UK border delays either. You're falling into a k-hole of Brexit schadenfreude.
Isn't this part of the Brexit dream, make it harder for the masses to leave for education, work, holidays so we're forced to spend our working lives and money here?
French exporters (of tourism, as a particular example) and importers (of anything) don’t benefit from France-UK border delays either.
So how much is this costing the French?
Is it actually enough for them to care?
So how much is this costing the French?
Probably far less than the last couple of months of demonstrations, state-sanctioned violence, rioting, fire-setting and strikes have cost the French economy. I shouldn't imagine it's in the top 100 things they care about.
And yet as long as Monoprix's carrier bags are made in the Midlands and Alps ski resorts "export" to UK consumers, a poorly-managed French-UK border will continue to damage the French economy as well as the UK economy.
I mean, FFS, the UK and France don't have any other manned land borders in Europe apart from a a few kiosks at Dover, Folkestone, Calais, Lille, Paris, and London. It shouldn't be this difficult. Latvia has two long and problematic borders with Russia and Belarus. Romania and Croatia each have three troublesome non-EU neighbours!
And yet as long as Monoprix’s carrier bags are made in the Midlands and Alps ski resorts “export” to UK consumers, a poorly-managed French-UK border will continue to damage the French economy as well as the UK economy.
I'd be going with "minimal" there.
Plaggy bags are non-perishable so even the occasional 24hr delay isn't really a biggie (I'd say the UK manuf contract may be in jeopardy though - France is in a BIG free-trading bloc, as we know).
Skiers are still going to ski abroad, largely anyway, and regardless of how the get across, France will remain the closest mass-skiing option so I doubt Monsieur Meribel is shitting himself over this (M. Tinylow-levelresort might be if schools all stop but then global warming will probably be way higher on that list of concerns)
Surely it’s up to the government whose citizens are being affected to sort out the issue.
Are many French taxpayers being inconvenienced to the point that they should funnel more resources into border control?
If not, how should the French government justify the extra spending to its voters?
I’ve got a feeling this is a British problem and it’s up to the British government to sort out. So I’m sure it’ll all be fine.
That's why I said it was the UK Gov who should (but won't) pay for more <span style="text-decoration: underline;">French</span> Immigration officials. The UK Gov don't seem to have an issue in paying he French Gov for more patrols to [frothing gammon] STOP THE BOATS [/frothing gammon]. I do suspect admitting this is a brexit issue and that we need to pay the french for anything other than something that appeases Daily Heil readers is probably not going to get over the line.
Generally reciprocity suggest both parties will benefit.
FGS sake both parties do benefit. Even with brexit there's a huge amount of commerce and tourism going through Dover in both directions. It's mutually beneficial for both countries to ensure the border works. As already mentioned, the UK appears to be doing it's part in ensuring that happens by not being overly bureuacratic about passport checks, the French could easily do the same, especially if it's only for a couple of weekends per year when traffic peaks. It makes very little sense spending millions/billions increasing capacity if it's not needed for 99% of the time.
It’s all getting a bit “they need us more than we need them…”
Is French Border Control the new German Car Industry?
