It’s all getting a bit “they need us more than we need them…”
Hardly. More like 'we have a very busy border in both directions, lets make sure it works for our mutual benefit'.
It’s mutually beneficial for both countries to ensure the border works.
Depends on your perspective / prioritisation of what a working border looks like.
If the primary aim is to ensure that people entering France and hence the EU are having their travel documents, etc. properly scrutinised then it seems to be happening.
A secondary aim would be that it is done in a timely and efficient manner. Which I'd agree - it isn't currently. However, do you compromise the primary aim to achieve the secondary, or the secondary to achieve the primary?
However, do you compromise the primary aim to achieve the secondary, or the secondary to achieve the primary?
The obvious answer is to be pragmatic in the interests of public safety and other considerations. 99% of the time you can uphold that primary goal. The other 1% you prioritise the secondary goal. Like I've been saying all along, it's a very simple problem to solve.
It's not that obvious otherwise we wouldn't have 4 pages of roundabout discussion.
Obvious to you, but it's just your opinion, not a 'fact'.
I can easily argue if I want (whether I believe it or not) you don't compromise the integrity of the border when that is its primary, overarching purpose.
Right, Dazh - going on what you've said, the EU should only control their borders (which we have demanded they do, no less) at a time when it does not inconvenience you or your family?
That about right?
I'm sure if you pop your request on an email to Moinsur Macron, he will jump right on it, especially as it's so simple to implement.
Like I’ve been saying all along, it’s a very simple problem to solve.
From a very narrow perspective maybe. No idea what I really think about border security but as you've mentioned many times already on the thread the majority of the UK voted for Brexit and the likes of you and I who didn't need to respect that and get on with it. One of the main priorities of these people when voting as they did was border security. Should we not be respecting that? Lets be very clear, a border is not secure if on a very predictable few days a year standards are dropped to aid slick passage of holiday makers. If there was a particular reason why you might struggle to cross a secure/'take back control' border, I wonder which days of the year you'd give it a shot? It's hardly rocket science.
That's not the solution - it sucks big hairy self-oriented balls. The solutions are border crossing facilities with masses of built in redundancy to cater for a few peak days/weeks or for the system to insist on prebooked crossings with manageable daily limits (and the UK holidaying public to appreciate this and plan accordingly). We are not in 2015 any more Toto. This is what 'we' collectively wanted and whilst I agree we need to move on, your solution to moving on is to basically ignore the wishes of the majority which is exactly what you have been 'ffs'ing about in others.
FGS sake both parties do benefit. Even with brexit there’s a huge amount of commerce and tourism going through Dover in both directions. It’s mutually beneficial for both countries to ensure the border works. As already mentioned, the UK appears to be doing it’s part in ensuring that happens by not being overly bureuacratic about passport checks, the French could easily do the same, especially if it’s only for a couple of weekends per year when traffic peaks. It makes very little sense spending millions/billions increasing capacity if it’s not needed for 99% of the time.
So you're saying that if you want to leave or enter the country illegally, waiting for easter half-term would be your best opportunity to do it?
the French could easily do the same, especially if it’s only for a couple of weekends per year when traffic peaks.
The French have signed an international treaty specifically precluding this option.
The UK Government was advised to install more passport control booths in Dover to cope with increased processing times, but declined. Reap what you sow and all the Brexity types getting their knickers in a twist 🤡🤡🤡
The French have signed an international treaty specifically precluding this option.
I think you’ve forgotten the “but we’re British…” clause haven’t you? 😀
at a time when it does not inconvenience you or your family?
No to ensure the safety of thousands of kids. Look, if this issue existed without the backdrop of brexit, you lot would all probably agree with me rather than shouting 'rules are rules'. The only reason you're not is it gives you another opportunity to have a whine about a vote you were on the wrong side of in 2016. Some of you are even celebrating the stress and suffering caused to kids. If that's where the anti-brexit side of the debate is now then I want nothing to do with it.
Ah. It’s for the “safety”* of your little Chardonnay.
Got it.
*Read Inconvenience.
No to ensure the safety of thousands of kids.
Christ, you're making it sound like the Ruskies were bombing Dover FFS...
You're banging a solo drum here dazh - everyone else can see the wood for the trees.
Rules are rules, the EU isn't going to bend them so a few school kids can get on holiday quicker - it's never going to happen. If anything, it's going to get worse when finger prints and face scans are implemented.
Ah. It’s for the “safety”* of your little Chardonnay.
Another demonstration of arseholery. Well done.
Christ, you’re making it sound like the Ruskies were bombing Dover FFS…
See above for the comment talking about the impact on the kids. Panic attacks, unsanitory conditions, lack of food and water, unable to get out of the coaches for some exercise etc. Ask yourself honestly if you'd be ok with those sorts of conditions for yourself or your kids, especially when it was entirely unnecessary.
It'll be interesting to see if schools/parents/ trip operators risk it next year after 2 years of this.
theotherjonv
Full Member
It’s not that obvious otherwise we wouldn’t have 4 pages of roundabout discussion
The amount of shite that's sprouted on here is never a reliable indication as to the complexity of the subject matter.
Reap what you sow and all the Brexity types getting their knickers in a twist
At the risk of repeating myself...I’m as remoaner as they come, but some of you lot need to get over yourselves. When your “suck it up, Brexiteer ****” attacks are directed at people who were in primary school at the time of the referendum…maybe it’s time to touch some grass?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/06/queues-dover-port-easter-weekend-travel-delays
Here we go again. No doubt everyone on this thread will be popping the champagne corks and having a good old laugh at the expense of people having their holidays f***** up. Bloody snowflakes eh! They don't like it up 'em! Serves the buggers right blah blah blah! With every passing day the anti-brexit cohort becomes a bit more like the rabid brexiteers they profess to hate so much. It's pathetic.
Is anyone genuinely saying that, or merely pointing out that it's a foreseeable consequence that queues for document checking are going to be longer. Seems to me that the solution isn't to expect the EU to row back on the requirements and in doing so compromise the porosity of the border, the obvious solution is that Gov/port authorities should be laying on extra toilets and food and water vans or whatever so it isn't as 'dangerous' as it is reported to be.
It happened / happening now, and anyone travelling through Dover in the peak periods should also take some precautions themselves in the same way as I put a few bottles of water into the car when I drive the family down to the west country on a BH weekend, or pack a sleeping bag when there is potential for snow closures. Simple statement of facts;
We voted to leave the EU
As a result document checking at the border is now more involved than when we were in the EU
At peak times, that may lead to extensive queues and delays
Bring extra food and water in case of delays, we will also lay on extra temporary facilities
Job done?
TBH in the overall picture I'm less worried about someone spending half a day on a coach than I am about the impact on my kids not being able to travel and work in the EU in future. Using kids going on holidays as 'collateral damage' isn't particularly nice but it's a ****ed up decision that has caused this and I can't see people not taking advantage of that for some time yet.
See above for the comment talking about the impact on the kids. Panic attacks, unsanitory conditions, lack of food and water, unable to get out of the coaches for some exercise etc. Ask yourself honestly if you’d be ok with those sorts of conditions for yourself or your kids, especially when it was entirely unnecessary.
Aye, I'd be blaming the british people for voting in such an idiotic manner when this was entirely predictable, and the British government for having ample time to sort shit out, when clearly they haven't. I'd certainly not be blaming the EU for not completely renegading on international border protocol.
If i was gonna pack my kids off (that, fortunately, I'll never have) through Dover, in a coach, in peak holiday season, I'd probably have the sense to chuck a bottle of water in their backpack and a sandwich in there too.
To reiterate, nobody died, the Russians weren't bombing anyone in Dover, and if kids can't be trusted to wash their hands properly after popping to a public toilet, I probably wouldn't be sending them on a foreign trip without parents in the first case.
If it helps, I was stuck in customs the week before, thanks to additional brexit bureaucracy that wasn't required previously. It was frustrating, but 'computer said no' and I missed my train and arrived at my EU destination many hours later than I planned to. Getting back into the UK was a PITA too. hey ho - i wasn't the one who voted for this shit.
With every passing day the anti-brexit cohort becomes a bit more like the rabid brexiteers they profess to hate so much.
I’m hoping this is just a game you are playing. People have pointed out what the UK government, and French authorities, and the port authorities, and ferry companies, and we as holiday makers need to do. If much of that plain speaking about the changes needed is coming from people who thought Brexit was a bad idea… perhaps it’s because those are people with an understanding of things like “the importance of the port of Dover”, and the bottleneck there… but we aren’t the people who have been in a position to do anything about it… you need to be getting irate with those that have been, like Davies, Frost, Raab, Truss, Cleverly… what have they been doing…? Why haven’t they increased the capacity for increased border checks, or negated or reduced the need for them with fresh border agreements? They have been in a government that changed our relationship with France and the EU, that changed the nature of the border, why haven’t they done the hard diplomatic work and/or updated the infrastructure at the border?
Plaggy bags are non-perishable so even the occasional 24hr delay isn’t really a biggie
As far as I'm aware they don't need to get their passports stamped either.
