As if the French are going to be bothered about who is on the coach?
Well they should be.
All part of their “screw you/we-told-you-so” etc stance.
And here I was thinking France was a mature, sensible and compassionate country. If you're right then it would appear it's not the UK being the spiteful immature party in this situation. Seems many on here support that stance. International relations reduced to the level of schoolyard pettyness. Pathetic.
You can’t have Brexit without the inevitable consequences of Brexit shocka!
International relations reduced to the level of schoolyard pettyness. Pathetic.
Err.. the irony.
Come on Dazh, you understand that what keeps borders open within the EU is the agreed controls at their external borders. We're outside the external borders, extra checks now apply to us. Our choice. We absolutely can sign up to agreements that would shift those checks away from those European borders, but we choose not to, as we're not pragmatic. Now, these extra checks that "we're" not prepared to increase the infrastructure for, or sign agreements to minimise... when they create havoc... it, is, on, "us".
You can’t have Brexit without the inevitable consequences of Brexit shocka!
If you think a bunch of kids stuck at the border are a significant 'consequence of brexit' then you're deluded. Brexit was about political and economic union at a nation state level, and not about ignoring easy to solve problems because we're too pig-headed about the result of a vote seven years ago.
All sides need to grow up on this debate, and I'm sorry to say that from what I can see, the majority of the immaturity and pettyness is coming from the remain/rejoin side. I always thought those of us who opposed brexit were better than this. Clearly I was wrong. 😕
Come on Dazh, you understand that what keeps borders open within the EU is the agreed controls at their external borders.
Yes I do. I also understand that in *exceptional circumstances* rules and regulations can be waived or relaxed. If thousands of kids stuck at the border for 16 hours without sufficient food, water and sanitation isn't a good enough reason for the French do to that then I think very much less of them than I did before, and I think very much less of those who defend that.
and not about ignoring easy to solve problems because we’re too pig-headed
Border problems are not "easy to solve"... decades of work, cupboards of legislation and legal frame working goes into minimising frictions at borders. "Why isn't the world more simple", "what's the point of all these rules", "why do we need to agree things across a number of countries"... well... meet the real world.
well… meet the real world.
Nonsense. Rules and regulations are relaxed or ignored in all sorts of situations in the interests of public safety and other concerns. This was unarguably one of those situations.
Because kids going skiing have been hit with something similar to what couriers, lorry drivers, exporters, orchestras, roadies, actors, exhibitors, cheese makers and candlestick makers have been telling us for years now... you think we've now been hit with "exceptional circumstances"? I'd go with "likely and foreseen unfortunate circumstances".
But hang on, aren't the UK Gov threatening to deport kids to Rwanda if they come across in small boats, probably without food, water and decent sanitation? Why can't we "relax the rules" for them rather than Polly who's missed a day of Skiing?
If you don’t think a bunch of kids stuck at the border is a ‘consequence of brexit’ then you’re deluded. It’s been pointed out repeatedly that by leaving the EU the UK gave up its place to influence the increasing Schengen related border controls across the EU’s external borders and British citizen became just another third country bod when reaching border controls.
Unfortunately it is not an easy to fix problem as it requires considerable political will from the UK, currently missing, significant infrastructure changes, currently missing, and a strong desire on the part of the French government to devote resources to a problem they haven’t really created and which is off very limited economic impact to them. For whatever reason all those with an interest in getting transport from UK through Calais expedited, or who experienced the same problems last year, don’t seem to have done much.
*exceptional circumstances* so exceptional they happened last year as well but schools, tour companies and ferry companies took no steps to prevent it? As another poster mentioned Eurotunnel choked capacity for coaches because of this problem but other chose not too bother by the look of it.
Your view of other’s immaturity and pettiness seems a bit misplaced as the majority of hysterical ranting seems to be coming from you.
Yes I do. I also understand that in *exceptional circumstances* rules and regulations can be waived or relaxed.
So we're back to..."So you’re suggesting rules is rules unless it’s kids going skiing then it’s “be a good chap and wave us on old boy”?"
On a more practical level, should your kid get waived through at Easter and NOT get their passport stamped on the way out but get a stamp on the way back, you are going to have fun trying to head to over to France in the Summer as passport control know they were in the EU but don't know how long for.
And don't forget we have the Biometric scans coming at the end of 2023. Initial scanning takes 10 mins for a car of 4 apparently. So that will be fun!
you think we’ve now been hit with “exceptional circumstances”?
You don't think the fact that it was kids merits a little more consideration than truck drivers? Nice!
And it was exceptional because of the time of year and the impact on those caught up in it. I've been across that border multiple times since brexit with no problems. This wasn't a normal situation. Would the world have fallen in if the UK and particularly the French govt agreed to relax the rules a bit for a couple of days to prevent what they knew would happen? Whichever way you look at it, it's indefensible.
On a more practical level, should your kid get waived through at Easter and NOT get their passport stamped on the way out but get a stamp on the way back
Oh what an intractable problem! Easily solved by double stamping the passports on the way back for those coaches involved. They're a bunch of kids going skiing not potential immigrants trying to overstay their welcome!
The EU’s Schengen rules also state
“It should be possible to have checks at external borders relaxed in the event of exceptional and unforeseeable circumstances in order to avoid excessive waiting time at border crossing points. The systematic stamping of the documents of third-country nationals remains an obligation in the event of border checks being relaxed. “
So stamping British passports would still be a requirement even under relaxed regimes and as mentioned it’s not exceptional if it happens every Easter holidays.
'Yes I do. I also understand that in *exceptional circumstances* rules and regulations can be waived or relaxed. If thousands of kids stuck at the border for 16 hours without sufficient food, water and sanitation isn’t a good enough reason for the French do to that then I think very much less of them than I did before, and I think very much less of those who defend that.'
No that is not a good reason at all. It's a jolly, and it's up to the border authorities to have resources in place to sort it out. They can go home and the ferry companys/border force allocate slots when there is free space to process them. I'm not really seeing a good reason for 'exceptional circumstances' being a euphamism for bad planning. Signed, someone who lives in the Schengen zone and wonders why the UK always thinks it needs treating one notch better than anyone else
The callousnous and schadenfruede on display on this thread really is something to behold. I really hope none of your kids go through something like this. Have a word with yourselves.
You don’t think the fact that it was kids merits a little more consideration than truck drivers? Nice!
It was one of my little darlings in the queue of doom and even I recognise this is a far bigger issue that a once annually inconvenienced bunch of kids, They were fine, pissed off but fine. the frequency and scale of this type of balls-up seems to be increasing, funnily enough since Brexit. My sincere condolences go to Lorry Drivers and the poor sods living nearby the port...
And it was exceptional because of the time of year and the impact on those caught up in it. I’ve been across that border multiple times since brexit with no problems. This wasn’t a normal situation.
It wasn't a Normal situation, but it was foreseeable, those coaches were booked on months ago, I don't know which systems at which organisations need to be sharing data to ensure resources meet demand, but if they can't figure out based on the last few decades that busses full of kids were going to be at Dover this weekend they need sacking and replacing...
I really hope none of your kids go through something like this.
Nobody wants any kids going through something like this. Other people have simply suggested your anger might be misdirected, which seems to have sent you off on one and start throwing accusations around.
The callousnous and schadenfruede on display on this thread really is something to behold. I really hope none of your kids go through something like this. Have a word with yourselves.
I think it's terrible that we have a Govt that has completely abdicated from the responsibility of governing, and considers its job instead to be generating sound-bites and outrage to motivate its base and own the libs.
But this is where we are, and other than not voting for them, I don't think there is much that any of us can do.
Not sure it’s the job of the French to add capacity at Dover.
The job of French immigration officers is to control their border
ICYMI, the French border control point is in Dover, before you get on the ferry. When you get off the ferry, you roll straight onto the autoroute.
Dover Port needs to provide the inspection booths, Police Nationale needs to staff them. Fwiw, there were unstaffed booths all through the weekend.
what keeps borders open within the EU is the agreed controls at their external borders.
That's true, but there were never open borders between the UK and France, as the UK and Ireland were always outside the Schengen Zone.
The callousnous and schadenfruede on display on this thread really is something to behold. I really hope none of your kids go through something like this. Have a word with yourselves.
Lol, what a drama queen! They're spending a bit more time on a coach than originally planned, they're not being conscripted to join an army FFS
The callousnous and schadenfruede on display on this thread really is something to behold. I really hope none of your kids go through something like this. Have a word with yourselves.
Lol, what a drama queen! They’re spending a bit more time on a coach than originally planned, they’re not being conscripted to join an army FFS
And this thread was literally started by a parent going through this who is more calm about it than dazh who seems to be having a serious 'won't someone think of the children moment' on behalf of them. 😱
It's the nature of travel - delays happed and things break.
Last time I came back from France with a group the bus broke down in France and it took 10 hours to get another one.
The only additional layer here is the lack of motivation for planning and resources needed for the extra complexity of Brexshit.
You could blame those who fell that it is appropriate to waste natural resources by holidaying abroad . Somewhat silly mmaybe? After all the Uk is nice enough. Why be greedy?
Oops, sorry forgot that the STW masses only see other peoples "errors."
More middle ground it wasn't unlikely that this would happen and as the OP said, it has happened before so gettiing all upset isn't much use is it?
If only the French had foreseen this problem coming and put in a request to build more booths.....oh, they did. https://www.cityam.com/govt-rejects-33m-proposal-for-more-passport-booths-at-dover-leaving-longer-queues-more-likely/
But no matter, the return traffic into the UK is not so bad as the UK border forces are electing not to carry out full checks - that's taking back control of our borders and keeping the riffraff out right there. So if you want to enter Fortress Britain with our iron clad post-Brexit proud chest thumping blue passport waving barriers, just wait until it's a bit busy on a bank holiday.
The callousnous and schadenfruede on display on this thread really is something to behold. I really hope none of your kids go through something like this. Have a word with yourselves.
Some of us do have kids and friends caught up.
And we're ****ing pissed off that no one in a position of power has sorted it out in the 7 years since the vote, when this kind of shit was dismissed as Project Fear.
I’m with the pissed off parents, that conscription comment up there is just ****ing stupid. I don’t doubt there were a range of factors, most of which were foreseen and therefore avoidable. This isn’t about a single broken down coach Matt, which in many cases would be unforeseen and of course isolated.
Delays happen at the ferry port and Eurotunnel every school holiday, I remember being stuck in it last summer. Every year there is an excuse about brexit, operational issues, French border control, IT systems and everything in-between. I cant see it going away any time soon either.
Talking to a non-British friend of mine the other day and he was saying that despite having lots of friends over in the UK, he often reads things online that do little to sway him from the general idea that, as Brits, we really are an "Exceptionalist, Cake & Eat it, Blame everyone else for our mistakes" sort of a nation. He says phrases like "The EU will "beg us" for this that and the other" haven't helped paint us in a particularly favourable light and our politicians being untrustworthy has pretty much sealed our fate.
Of course all countries have their problems, no one's perfect, but we do seem to have made things many times worse than "the average".
I can't see an easy exit to the corner we now find ourselves painted into. Perhaps, like an addict, before we can start to heal, we first have to admit out loud that we have a problem - but I'm not sure that's in our nature.
as Brits, we really are an “Exceptionalist,
FFS it's not exceptionalist to expect that kids shouldn't have to sit on a coach for 16 hours because the port authorities controlling the border can't figure out a simple problem like checking passports and keeping the traffic moving.
FFS it’s not exceptionalist to expect that kids shouldn’t have to sit on a coach for 16 hours because the [s]port authorities[/s] [b]government who oversee and fund[/b] controlling the border can’t figure out a [s]simple problem[/s] [b]post brexshit issue of our own causing[/b] like checking passports and keeping the traffic moving.
FTFY
FFS it’s not exceptionalist to expect that kids shouldn’t have to sit on a coach for 16 hours because the port authorities controlling the border can’t figure out a simple problem like checking passports and keeping the traffic moving.
It is when you’ve had ample warning the problem will arise, you’ve made no attempts to mitigate the issues, you’ve made conscious decisions which will actually amplify the problem and you then expect another country to bin off agreements and treaties they’ve made in order to sort out your mess - that’s pretty much exceptionalism.
FTFY
You haven't fixed anything, that's exactly what I said but with more words. I'm not denying it's a post-brexit issue, obviously it is. What I'm saying though is that it is easily solvable, and not an inevitable outcome of not being in the EU. I know it fits the narrative of 'we should never have left', but what's the point in that? Seems to me many on here would prefer stuff like this happening repeatedly rather than fixing it so that they can feel comfortable saying 'we told you so'. As I said, it's not a good look.
What I’m saying though is that it is easily solvable,
Indeed - we can pay for more resources to make it faster. Something we didn't need to do before Brexit.
and not an inevitable outcome of not being in the EU.
Freedom of movement vs no freedom of movement (with additional checks and security needed). Yes. Yes it was inevitable.
And not unique
- heading into Spain in the summer from the ferry saw every other European nation just drive off and head into Spain, while us brits sat in a queue to be checked and searched.
- we had a huge queue for a flight from Portugal for similar reasons - Brits and rest of the world waiting over 2hrs, EU citizens waltzed through to security.
and you then expect another country to bin off agreements and treaties
No one is asking or expecting France to 'bin off treaties'. This happens on two weekends a year, at easter and in the summer. Is it seriously beyond the abilities of both the french and UK authorities to sort out a temporary solution that could save thousands of kids (and others) serious stress and potentially dangerous conditions? You have a weird sense of priorities if you think the answer to that question is no.
Anyway I'm done. You guys are clearly content with your intransigence. I'm glad I don't have to work with any of you, it's like a someone saying 'computer says no' or 'or it's just not going to work' when there's an easy solution staring you in the face.
an easy solution staring you in the face
Which is?
Is it seriously beyond the abilities of both the french and UK authorities to sort out a temporary solution that could save thousands of kids (and others) serious stress and potentially dangerous conditions?
Do suggest to me a solution, which I think involves highly trained border guards, more passport control booths, more computers and technology, more people to search cars, more managers for those people.... (etc).
Is it seriously beyond the abilities of both the french and UK authorities to sort out a temporary solution that could save thousands of kids (and others) serious stress and potentially dangerous conditions?
And that solution is what? Remember stamping passports is laid down as mandatory in the Schengen treaty even in exceptional circumstances.
I’m glad I don’t have to work with any of you
Truly pathetic.
Do suggest to me a solution, which I think involves highly trained border guards, more passport control booths, more computers and technology, more people to search cars, more managers for those people…. (etc).
And probably a new ferry port/expansion of another port as Dover is very much constrained by geography.
heading into Spain in the summer from the ferry saw every other European nation just drive off and head into Spain, while us brits sat in a queue to be checked and searched.
Chinny reckon
It's almost as if The UK and the EU should enter into some sort of co-operation agreement to allow the easy flow of people / us between neighbouring countries?
Nah. That's not the solution.
The problem is clearly 100% down to the intransigent rejoiners / remainers. They are the ones punishing our children.
Chinny reckon
For some reason, most UK cars were pulled out of the line and we had a line of police & border guards checking us all... No idea why.
Is it seriously beyond the abilities of both the french and UK authorities to sort out a temporary solution that could save thousands of kids (and others) serious stress and potentially dangerous conditions?
We could temporarily rejoin the EU?
Like a 999 year lease, or something.
Which is?
I've already suggested the solution above. Go back and read it. What's more important, bureaucratic box ticking or ensuring the safety of thousands of kids? This is a very specific, very temporary problem which is easy to solve. If you can't see that you're not thinking hard enough.
And for those suggesting rejoining the EU, much as I would like that to happen, that's about a million times more difficult to do than keeping the traffic flowing through a port for the couple of days per years when the school holidays start.
