So being middle-class we packed our eldest off on a bus with her peers to go skiing in Andorra yesterday morning.
They were trapped in the Disaster at Dover and landed in France this morning after a 12h delay. So they've lost a day on the slopes, they were similarly affected last year.
My missus is furious (my being a bit placid about it all doesn't help either), but doesn't seem to know who to direct her compliant at, she's going 'full-Karen' on about seeking compensation, etc... But (and I keep asking her) who do you seek compensation from? Who is actually to blame for this (recurring) problem? It's more of an academic question for me because the operator will probably be putting in an insurance claim for the Delays and refunding us a bit (we got a partial rebate last year for a similar issue)
I know who I blame (ultimately) and it means invoking the dreaded 'B-word', but more practically where/how is the breakdown in Comms and logistics? UK/French border controls? The ferry operators? The setup at the port?
Of course this has the possibility of rearing it's head again during the summer when people load up to hit the alps with bikes....
Anyway STW comments/venting is sought, have at it folks...
We got 50% back from our ferry co after a delay last year but that was their fault, I'm sure someone will bear liability if not the ferry co. Think it depends on how long the trip and how big the delay.
Efit - This was our thing, I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction if not the ferry co. Good luck, hope the trip gets better for your daughter! 🙂
TBH I'm happy to sit back and let the schools/interski sort the money nonsense out, I'm more interested in directing the other Half's rage towards the correct responsible party(ies)...
Suella wading in on the topic this morning has not improved her mood either:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/02/suella-braverman-denies-brexit-to-blame-for-dover-queues-of-14-hours
52% of the population owe you - perhaps we could have a compensation scheme similar to the PPI. Have you been financially impacted by Brexit? Better call Saul!
Maybe a higher tax tier for those who voted to leave could pay for it. In fact it would probably end up being the same PPI money being transferred back to those of us who have a brain. Easy come easy go.
52% of the population owe you – perhaps we could have a compensation scheme similar to the PPI. Have you been financially impacted by Brexit? Better call Saul!
While I don't disagree, even I've gotten tired of the incessant circular arguing with the Brexit-faithful.
Some have started to question the project and admitted that the current state of things isn't what they expected/voted for which isn't really an apology, just shifting the blame to the Salesforce.
But beating up stupid people for being stupid gets us nowhere, I now just want the UK to get along well enough with our neighbours that my kids can actually visit, see the benefits of the EU and ideally vote us back in when the time comes in a decade or so (hopefully)...
Anyway in the meantime who do I point my angry spouse at for the latest cluster? Her rage can be quite effective at times, like a sith lord, but with strong views on customer service and the well being of her little darlings...
Just point her towards Mr N Farage of Toad Hall
But beating up stupid people for being stupid gets us nowhere,
No, it reminds them that they have created chaos through their stupidity and maybe think things a bit more next time they have an important decision to make. It also serves as a warning against complacency over political questions, so no stupid people should continue to get booted up the hole at every opportunity.
And wait until full EES comes in over Schengen if people think this is bad they’re in for a shock.
Her rage can be quite effective at times, like a sith lord, but with strong views on customer service and the well being of her little darlings…
😂
Train delay claims go back to the company you bought the ticket from who then get it from whomever the fault lay (operator, network rail etc). Should be the same here I’d have thought.
Need to blame
- everyone who didn't support joining the Schengen area when we had the option
- everyone who voted to leave the EU.
- Everyone who generates excessive levels of CO2 and therefore causes worsening of the climate.
That should keep you and the Mrs busy for a while.
I'd start with your MP, assuming either Tory or Labour they all voted for this shitshow. Though frankly port delays are the least of it.
The root cause is building all your entry / exit infrastructure based on being in Schengen and then deciding to leave it...
Without redesigning and rebuilding all the entry / exit areas to have 2-3x as many booths and employing 2-3x as many people and paying the French to do the same, you can't really fix it...
If only someone had pointed this out before hand...
Eurostar has had to permanently reduce daily capacity as St Pancras Station doesn't have the space for more booths, so they can't check enough people to fill the trains....
So much winning!
Simon Calder telling the spanners on GBNews how it is.....and it's not going to get better
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYH2aOjKJM
The root cause is building all your entry / exit infrastructure based on being in Schengen and then deciding to leave it…
Pedant alert! The root cause is building all your entry / exit infrastructure based on being in the EU and then deciding to leave it FTFY
UK wasn’t in Schengen, however whilst in EU we weren’t a third country and therefore not subject to stringent entry issues but hey blue passports so it’s all good.
Your complaint? The only place you can really direct it is the company that provided the services to get your daughter to the ski slopes on a particular day.
Was the rebate recieved last year in line with how much a ruined day of the holiday would cost? Is your wife seeking a larger sum than this? If so, what loss is being compensated?
UK wasn’t in Schengen, however whilst in EU we weren’t a third country and therefore not subject to stringent entry issues but hey blue passports so it’s all good.
Good point.
Not sure what our actual border status was...
TBH I thought the current motto was ‘Stop The Boats’ seems rude to complain when the government actually succeeds in doing something 🙂
operator will probably be putting in an insurance claim for the Delays and refunding us a bit
End if thread, surely?
if you want proper compensation, you should have been proper middle class and booked her on a flight!*
I’d feel sorry for the teachers trapped on a bus full of surly teenagers but if the school didn’t learn from last year that going on the first day of the Easter holidays was always a big risk it’s kind of their own fault.
*actually even for flights where it is law it’s such a hassle to get back in actual cash (KLM it is now 9 months, you’ve admitted to the arbitrator that you screwed up and we are due compensation - how about you just actually pay it!).
Slightly off topic but, does anyone know if these traffic hold ups also affect Eurotunnel.
Obviously a different town, but the border is still technically the same, though I'd assume traffic volume is less.
I'm on a tight schedule in the summer to get to Venice, so planning ahead for any delays is probably a good idea
Don’t want to rub salt into any wounds but Simon Calder saying “the only compensation you have is the emotional compensation of a blue passport”.
Hope the snows good. And that they enjoy themselves.
You'd think people would have learned after last year. I look forward to exactly the same story all over again next year. If there's anything more infuriating than thundering idiocy of Brexit itself, it's the wilful failure/refusal to account for it.
My son is on 2 coach loads heading to Austria and were the same - sounds like your daughter got away with it lightly - ours were due to sail at midnight Saturday and eventually got a ferry 24 hours later. Were meant to be skiing today but instead are currently somewhere near the Belgium/Germany border where they managed to get all the kids into a hotel for a few hours sleep and breakfast after sitting on a coach for 24 hours at Dover + the 6 hour journey down there at this side.
Like you, me and the missus have been pretty relaxed about it but some of the other parents have been going absolutely bat sh*t mental. No idea whether there'll be any form of compensation (there should - we paid for 4 days of ski tuition and the kids will be getting 3) but I'm not all that bothered... I just hope my lad can put the last 24 hours behind him and enjoy himself on a school trip he's been looking forward to for 6 months. And of course we all know who/what is to blame... ironic that many Brexit voters did so purely out of the idea of "stopping the immigrants" and yet the result has been more immigrants than ever crossing the channel and at the same time, we can't get out the country in the other direction!
About people learning after last year - the ferry companies etc came out after last year and acknowledged it couldn't happen again and that better plans will be in place this year. Turns out, like their estimated wait times they've been telling the BBC all weekend, that their plans for 2023 were also absolute horse sh*t.
Slightly off topic but, does anyone know if these traffic hold ups also affect Eurotunnel.
Eurotunnel restricted capacity last year to address the issue. I'd expect them to do the same this year.
https://www.route-one.net/news/eurotunnel-restrictions-on-coaches-draw-angry-response/
Compensation? You would need to check your T&Cs, there may well be a clause in their around immigration delays.
Can't imagine why there might be delays at Dover...
Eurotunnel restricted capacity last year to address the issue. I’d expect them to do the same this year.
Thanks for that 👍
Like you, me and the missus have been pretty relaxed about it but some of the other parents have been going absolutely bat sh*t mental.
Exactly the same situation for my 16 year old. Stuck at dover for 14 hours, had to do a stopover in Germany so the coach drivers could sleep, and lost a day's skiing. I'm just glad they got there at all as some trips were cancelled and the kids driven straight back home. Brexit or not the fault lies squarely at the door of the UK and French authorities for not sorting it out. I imagine the idiots in the UK govt thought it wasn't their job to do anything, and the French probably just did a massive gallic shrug and said not our problem.
the French probably just did a massive gallic shrug and said not our problem
I suspect there was VERY much a case of this and why the hell not. I don't blame the French for it... they're just demonstrating a massive "**** you" after years of Brexit "we'll be able to dictate how we want things to work" talk from our government. Turns out, like many 48% thought, that wasn't the case...
I suspect there was VERY much a case of this and why the hell not.
Because thousands of kids were stuck on coaches in cramped and unsanitory conditions for up to 16 hours with not enough to eat and drink.
Brexit or not the fault lies squarely at the door of the UK and French authorities for not sorting it out
Not sure it's the job of the French to add capacity at Dover.
The job of French immigration officers is to control their border, they have a process to follow and why would we expect them to do any different?
This will happen every single year unless either:
1) Capacity is increased.
2) Demand decreases or is throttled (Eurotunnel has throttled demand from coaches)
3) Freedom of Movement in some way shape or form returns, good luck with that...
FYI we are not doing the same checks on the French side for boats coming to the UK, we're still effectively waving people through. Take Back Control - LOLZ.
FYI we are not doing the same checks on the French side for boats coming to the UK, we’re still effectively waving people through. Take Back Control – LOLZ.
Sounds like a mature and pragmatic approach to prevent chaos and ultimately the pain and inconvenience caused by unnecessary delays. What you're basically saying is that it's ok to cause the cancellation of kids holidays and/or have them endure 16 hours of uncomfortable conditions because 'rules are rules'. It's not ok. All sides, the UK govt, the ferry companies and the French border patrol need to get a grip in the collective interest rather than acting like children by pointing the finger at others.
Sounds like a mature and pragmatic approach to prevent chaos
Problem is, once you start down this street, thewn the proper fix never goes in. The potential for this to happen was repeatedly pointed out and the uk gov't decied that they wouldn't do anything. As a nation, we're reaping what we've sown.
As a nation, we’re reaping what we’ve sown.
Nope. This is an easy problem to solve that would saved thousands of kids loads of stress and some the disappointment of having their holiday cancelled at the last minute. All it required was some foresight, a little goodwill and a pragmatic approach. Quite illustrative again that the anti-brexit brigade are celebrating the suffering of people (kids this time!) to prove their point. It's really not a good look.
Sounds like a mature and pragmatic approach to prevent chaos and ultimately the pain and inconvenience caused by unnecessary delays. What you’re basically saying is that it’s ok to cause the cancellation of kids holidays and/or have them endure 16 hours of uncomfortable conditions because ‘rules are rules’. It’s not ok. All sides, the UK govt, the ferry companies and the French border patrol need to get a grip in the collective interest rather than acting like children by pointing the finger at others.
Won't somebody think of the children!!!??
So you're suggesting rules is rules unless it's kids going skiing then it's "be a good chap and wave us on old boy"?
I'm sure the reason why we're not doing the checks, nothing to do with under funding, lack of infrastructure and trying to save face.
There is also a small difference, we are controlling the border to the UK. The French staff are controlling the border to the whole of the Schengen Area. They are doing the same check on Dover Calais Ferries as they would on a Ferry between Morocco and Spain. We now have the same relationship to France as Morocco does to Spain.
All it required was some foresight, a little goodwill and a pragmatic approach.
1) Foresight - have you seen who is in government?
2) A little goodwill - Going to say it's likely to be in short supply on the EU side after De Pfeffel and Truss.
Pragmatic approach - see points 1 and 2.
All it required was some foresight, a little goodwill and a pragmatic approach.
Long term planning? Pragmatism? Building goodwill between nations? That's what BillOddie's map shows you. We chose "sovereignty" over joint cooperation, relationship building, planning and pragmatic arrangements.
We chose “sovereignty” over joint cooperation, relationship building, planning and pragmatic arrangements.
Yes obviously it would have been better to stay in the EU. But that does not mean that problems like this can't be solved or that we shouldn't try to solve them. You can still have cooperation, planning, pragmatism etc between countries without being in a political and economic union, especially when those things result in mutual benefit as they would in this case.
Of course you can have all those things. But it'll take longer, be less deep, more temporary, less embedded and less reliable. That's what we chose. What's the point in leaving other than to have a more distant relationship?
Could we have left the EU but stayed closer for the sake of moving people across borders... of course we could... but our government (of whatever colour) relies on the votes of people who voted for Brexit to make it harder for people moving across borders, so has gone in heavy in that area. One of the smoothest border crossings in the world was never going to stay that way... a UK choice.
Of course you can have all those things. But it’ll take longer, be less deep, more temporary, less embedded and less reliable. That’s what we chose. What’s the point in leaving other than to have a more distant relationship?
Also both sides have to trust each other. Fundamentally the EU does not trust us, Sunak seems to be making progress (see new N.I. agreement) but we're still a long long way from them relaxing border controls.
Until then it's just maths, what used to take 30 secs for a car of 4 now takes 5 mins. Shudder to think how long it takes for a coach of kids.
Possibly the most pragmatic fore thinking thing to do post brexit would have been to increase capacity at Dover but UK Gov couldn't find the £33m for it.
Possibly the most pragmatic fore thinking thing to do post brexit would have been to increase capacity at Dover but UK Gov couldn’t find the £33m for it.
Brexit SEP field in full effect... only considerable upsides, so no need to fund unnecessary contingencies... if any "surprise" measures really are needed, the relevant people and industries should just suck up the cost and hassle, nothing to do with UK gov or its post-Brexit choices and policies.
but UK Gov couldn’t find the £33m for it.
[tongue in cheek]Hold on, wasn't Brexit meant to provide an additional £350m a WEEK to the NHS. We should be swimming in millions of pounds of money we can use to build infrastructure etc.[/tongue in cheek]
Because thousands of kids were stuck on coaches in cramped and unsanitory conditions for up to 16 hours with not enough to eat and drink.
As if the French are going to be bothered about who is on the coach? They're simply following the rules that leaving the EU has meant have been imposed. Probably with a gallic added extra of moving at snails pace whilst doing so... All part of their "screw you/we-told-you-so" etc stance.
It's also in this governments favour to have these queues. Bad European losers taking out their frustration at not being free, like us, on poor holidaying children.
This thread lol
Don't they no oo we arr?
