[Closed] Farage and Clegg Round two here we go !

grum - Member
That's very true Tom, how perceptive of you, we are the new poor and as such blame everyone but ourselves, and there are lots & lots more of us thanks to your lot screwing up the economy and this lot helping their rich mates rebuild their balance sheets at our expense.
Where do you think former commodities trader and current EU expenses junkie Nigel Farage fits in with all that then?

Could they be a force for something other than a protest spanking, no, not without some influx of more heavyweight common sensical types and more Women, but they do provide a talking point, not only here, there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn, last time there was a local election round here they did split the Tory vote and a Green got in, it's a damn shame there is no one switched on in the Green party to make capitol of all this, but then they're like lots of typical lefties, too busy being heavy weight thinkers and not doing enough for fear they'll be thought of as uneducated masses eh?

What a load of waffle.

Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway

This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because 'we're Britain'. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UKIPs position that we'll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they're also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway

This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because 'we're Britain'. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UKIPs position that we'll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they're also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

dazh - Member
Now the UKIP line is that all this would continue anyway
This is just more hubris. If the UK leaves the EU, why do we assume the rest of the EU will continue trading with us on equal terms simply because 'we're Britain'. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UKIPs position that we'll have separate trade deals with individual countries? So they're also proposing a massive expansion of the civil service and regulatory bodies required to implement these? I though they were also anti-bureaucracy?

there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn

Thankfully I don't hang out in those kind of pubs.

As Nigel said, it's called business and the commercial sector tend to work these things out pretty quickly, especially given 'they' will wish to continue selling more to us than we do to them. As to the rest we have the WTO these days and many more emerging markets some of whom are commonwealth or ex colonial dominions who still like us, then of course there is the dear old internet that knows no boundaries (in theory at least). You forget, there was a time when a good chunk of that Globe was coloured pink...

Commerical enterprises aren't often able to challenge another countries trade policies, that is what government is for.

Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers care about us, what they care about is access to the European market. You have made unevedinced claims based on emotion as opposed to reason throughout the entire course of this thread.

The United States wants us in the EU, Australia wants us in the EU, Brazil wants us in the EU, India wants us in the EU....ad nauseum.

there have been any number of pub conversations lately with folk threatening UKIP at every turn

I bet they're the types that sit round in hundled groups, drinking everyday after work blaming all their problems on "them immigrants" and "educated toffs in London". **** them, they are obsolete relics of a bygone era and the sooner they sod off and die the better for the rest of us. Unfortunately that won't happen, as the unskilled/semi-skilled seem to procreate at a faster rate than everyone else.

Is anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

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Tom_W1987 - Member

Commerical enterprises aren't often able to challenge another countries trade policies, that is what Goldman Sachs is for.

ftfy

Tom_W1987 - Member

Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers don't care about us, what they care about is access to the Banking & Money System. You have made factual claims based on all you years of experience throughout the entire course of this thread and I thank you for enlightening my naive young mind.

aftfy

Tom_W1987 - Member
The United States don't give a damn, nor do Australia , Brazil , or India providing our banks continue to finance and trade with them.

ditto

Tom_W1987 - Member
I bet they're the types that sit round in hundled groups, drinking everyday after work blaming all their problems on "them immigrants" and "educated toffs in London". **** them, they are obsolete relics of a bygone era and the sooner they sod off and die the better for the rest of us. Unfortunately that won't happen, as the unskilled/semi-skilled seem to procreate at a faster rate than everyone else.

Is anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

True, you're pretty much screwed I fear, never mind you can always emigrate.

And they like our financial sector why? Because it has good links to both the United States and Europe, all of them fear that leaving the EU would damage our ability to provide that service. Even if it didn't, the perception would still damage trade. None of the city boys, I repeat none...want us to leave the EU.

Do you think your shitty little company would be able to deal with European trade barriers, lol?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/15/uk-ford-britain-idUKBREA0E0KK20140115 😆

None of the city boys, I repeat none...want us to leave the EU

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But the CITY BOYS have already Fudged this Country have they not ?
Or did they think I know before the EU Fudge us we will instead !

Anyway most of the city guys and clients I know have had € euro mortgages as
they was a much cheaper rate years back when the € euro first came onto the market.
Has the mortgage rate was cheaper to buy in € euros as in Sterling.
So probably there scared as they have so much invested in. Self interest comes to mind !

s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?

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Every little helps I suppose

"Very few of the ex colonial emerging powers care about us, what they care about is access to the European market. You have made unevedinced claims based on emotion as opposed to reason throughout the entire course of this thread"

Nigeria is begging for us to come and do stuff out here !
Looks as though the Chinese are beating us to it ?
The Chinese are currently building a much needed elevated railway in Lagos, I was asked by an elderly Nigerian Engineer why are the British not building this ?
This is one big emerging economy and we the Brits are too stupid to grasp it !

[quote=grantway ]s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?
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Every little helps I suppose

i think it is because they have not thought it through and seem to think that fat cat nigel is on their side.
Granted he wants british workers to do the low paid menial jobs foreigners do but that is far as his altruism goes.

Nigeria is begging for us to come and do stuff out here !
Looks as though the Chinese are beating us to it ?
The Chinese are currently building a much needed elevated railway in Lagos, I was asked by an elderly Nigerian Engineer why are the British not building this ?
This is one big emerging economy and we the Brits are too stupid to grasp it !

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

But the CITY BOYS have already Fudged this Country have they not ?

That's besides the point, the poster I was responding to thought that the world would carry on dealing with our banks. They would not.

Isn't Farage an ex banker, I wonder if he's reformed?

Or did they think I know before the EU Fudge us we will instead !

You what?

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

And the Tories, and Labour, and the LibDems. That's one of the big advantages that the Chinese have over Western companies. Many of the Chinese companies involved in Africa are huge state owned companies that together form a clear strategy which offers African governments entire packages. They work together and in cooperation with each other as they share a common goal.

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

I never meant to suggest that ukip could, I was responding to Toms statement that our ex colonial chums no longer want our involvment, when in fact Nigeria, a growing economy would like us to be more involved.

Tom_W1987 - Member
And they like our financial sector why?
Because it has good links to both the United States and Europe, all of them fear that leaving the EU would damage our ability to provide that service. Even if it didn't, the perception would still damage trade. None of the city boys, I repeat none...want us to leave the EU.

Do you think your shitty little company would be able to deal with European trade barriers, lol?

I'll answer the bit about my shitty little company and it's demise due to European centralisation first and the choice to headquarter in France rather than here, that cost the jobs of the 22 odd brits we had at the peak and ****ed our business into a cocked hat. Had there not been an Eu we'd still be going strong, like the Swiss guys, but that's another tale, what's done is done, am I bitter? Of course, difficult not to be watching a lifetimes work being wasted, but we move on.

As to the City generally, it is very naive to think the City Boys give a toss for political issues, it's not the way the world works. If they thought they could go on making more bucks from Eu expansionism I'm sure you'd be right, but it's done, the Eu thing is a busted flush and in this risk averse world it is all about risk management with a healthy bit of currency manipulation faced with a world of competitive devaluation, the Euro and Germany's historic fear of devaluation has given them breathing space as a safe haven currency, but, it's only temporary, so Germany keeps it's single currency market base, whilst thousands go unemployed.
There are only two sources of power, political and financial, but the one needs the other and guess which one inevitably calls the tune, don't think for a moment that Brussells is strong enough to take on the Worlds Financial institutions and sadly it is the likes of Goldman Sachs that do call the tune eventually, whilst making a shedload of cash doing it, ask Greece.

We little people are powerless, all our politicians, Labour, Tory they are all in thrall to the city, that alone would be reason to vote UKIP if only to send the bloody city boys a swerve. I'm not here to represent UKIP to you guys, I'm just explaining why a previously sensible sort of bloke is now even considering what was a lunatic fringe party and I do think as a Nation we would be better off in terms of jobs and global business outside of the EU, it's just an opinion don't hang me for it.

What we should be wondering is who is pulling their strings, how are they financed? We (think) we know the score with Labour and the Tories, so what would happen if they ever started making inroads into Westminster, would they become just another Tory/New Labour bankers poodle, or would they be reactionary enough to stand their ground? Who knows, only one way to find out in my view, would it be any worse than what we have now?

Tom_W1987 - Member

Getting involved in Africa would require far too much state planning for UKIP.

Chum, you do know how things work, with the civil service and everything? Have you never watched yes minister? There's nothing magical about Politicians, they are all 'guided' by the various mandarins that run things, UKIP would be no different than Labour or Tory once in power, from that sort of perspective, thicker people than you or I have found themselves heading Government departments, need I cite two jags?

There are snippets I actually quite liked in your second to last post derek. I don't agree with all of it but you've made more of an effort....

Why the hell are you voting UKIP? Ukip is for people who switched their brains off a long time ago. Ill get back to you when I'm sober.

Auntie Stella always delivers a more measured answer 😉

Thing is, derekfish - you haven't explained exactly why you think things would be better without the EU.

The banks will still be banks, and they're not your friends.

You want to trade with the rest of Europe you'll still need to play by their rules - which means accepting their regulations just like we do right now. (And that is of course the vast majority of the "Brussels diktat" lawmaking that UKIP complains about).

So what's left? Human rights legislation - not EU, so no difference there; CAP - fair enough, some money saved here, but will probably mean food prices go up and a lot of farmers ruined; sundry other legislation like data protection and NSA/GCHQ avoidance. (And to be honest when it comes to protecting my privacy I trust the EU far, far more than the UK).

And the loss? - tax free access to the EU market, a fairly level playing field (certainly more level than the alternative), political engagement with our commercial rivals... And what really hurts: there's a huge demand in Europe for the UK, people want a serious counterweight to Germany. The UK could be that, the goodwill's there, but our government seems too scared of blinkered little Englanders to actually make our weight count.

I'm not really capable of a truly rational argument at this time of night on a Friday, after a ride to visit Aunt Stella, suffice to say, we borrow an awful amount of money just to support our own Governmental mechanism, we also are taxed now at 20% Vat which is more than most businesses make, you may not remember but the rate we opened at was 8%, VAT is the tax that our contribution to the behemoth that the Eu has become.

That's one fifth of pretty much everything we spend, this on top of the third of everything we earn. I guess if I admitted it deep down I'm a bit of an anarchist, I really don't trust Government of any shape size or description, but when it has grown to the level it has simply to be part of some huge imperial structure, I feel enough is enough.

You can argue back and forth of the strengths and weaknesses, features and benefits, but simply put it's no longer worth the money, we are one of the four major contributors, we could use the money elsewhere yet still negotiate the free trade agreement, I don't care much about all the other crap, Human rights? It's a gravy train for Cherry Blair and her kind, GCHQ/NSA, yeah right like you can avoid that, wear the tinfoil hat and hope, farmers ruined? heard that before, didn't the floods just do that, better start ploughing that set aside and work for a living. We'll win some we'll lose some, maybe keep more of our fish, I don't care, what I do resent are Cleggs and there are far too many of them being paid by my efforts to do precious little but make my life difficult.

You can argue back and forth of the strengths and weaknesses, features and benefits, but simply put it's no longer worth the money, we are one of the four major contributors, we could use the money elsewhere yet still negotiate the free trade agreement,

This is the thing I doubt. Do you really think Germany and the rest of the EU will just allow the UK to negotiate - from the outside - a better deal than we get right now??? Apparently they're smart enough to beat their own rules and drive British manufacturing to the wall, yet with the UKIP at the helm we'll be able to drive through a deal that is better than the one we currently get?

I live in Spain. I'm not unbiased, I'm happy to admit that. But even the most impartial of observers would note that the Spanish love the British. We're natural allies. What makes you think other countries wouldn't want us as allies and friends, too? We could be so much more in the EU if we just had the cojones to do so.

The Logic goes, we withdraw, others follow, the whole thing has to be reshaped, back into what it once was, a free trade area, not a superstate. You live in Spain? I have lots of Spanish business friends, and acquaintances that would just love to be out of the Euro, never mind the Eu, their economy is shot, they are having a much worse time of it than us here, how long do you think they'd stay in if we pulled out?

I feel that for all it's faults, essentially the EU makes Europe seem like a smaller place. Economic and social policies are intertwined amongst a range of countries. This and the free movement of people has lead to events in one country having an effect across the EU. If countries start pulling out we will have disparate states with little interest in what is occuring elsewhere. I would like to think events like the Balkans War would be less likely to occur within EU borders.
The UK could be a major force and powerhouse in Europe, however a degree of scepticism is holding us back. In this I agree with mogrim.

Sorry. Double post.

Junkyard - lazarus
grantway » s anyone else slightly amused by the fact that a lot of UKIPers seem to be the types that complain about the fat cats in London but then vote for aspirational policies (eg low taxes) because they figure they might get rich one day?
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Every little helps I suppose

Sorry Junkyard the above quote came from Tom_W1987 I only added, Every little helps I suppose 😉

I hadn't even touched on the free movement of workers, which i can see no reason not to leave in place, the problem for us is our reluctance to teach languages, one thing I ensured my kids did and they enjoyed the opportunity to work and learn in Europe. Free trade and free movement doesn't need the level of central Bureaucracy to organise.