Mercedes originally Tyrell? Well in modern times maybe.
Mercedes originally Tyrell? Well in modern times maybe.
Other than the name there isn't really anything at all linking the original Mercedes F1 team to the current one.
Boom - Ford rumours surface again!... 🙂
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ford-linked-return-red-bull-2026/10411381/
Mercedes originally Tyrell? Well in modern times maybe.
AIUI the link back to Tyrrell is a pretty tenuous. When BAR bought the team they only really kept the Tyrrell name for a short time so they could collect some cash from Bernie, other than that BAR was pretty much a new team with new facilities.
Similarly if Andretti were to buy the Williams team name (and entry to the championship) but relocate the factory to the US would we consider that there was any Williams heritage left in the team? That's almost the opposite of Jordan morphing into AM as they've more or less stayed in the same place and just changed the signs outside the factory.
AIUI the link back to Tyrrell is a pretty tenuous. When BAR bought the team they only really kept the Tyrrell name for a short time so they could collect some cash from Bernie, other than that BAR was pretty much a new team with new facilities.
I think it's definitely that the entry had tremendous value, but also it was much cheaper and easier to buy an existing team and use their entry than apply for an entry from scratch. That's why almost all teams have these convoluted "used to be A, which used to be B, which used to be C" histories.
simondbarnes
Full Member
IMO Williams are being lined up for a Porsche takeover. They are still interested in F1 and there are no other teams for sale.The problem with Porsche is that they don’t have a suitable engine manufacturing / testing facility.
yes they do, they also had a "good to go" engine onyl a few years ago but pulled th plug at the last minute (millions had been spent). The whole RB tie up was becuase they wanted a team already good to go that they could control, but RB had different ideas on it.
Also, Ford -yeah not sure about that they have anything to offer anyone anymore. If anything it will be Cosworth, but it wont have any Ford involvemnt. Ford doesn't even get involved in WRC - that's done entirely at arms length through MSport.
yes they do
Everything I've read has said otherwise
onyl a few years ago
In F1 terms that may as well be last century
Everything I’ve read has said otherwise
Same here. There was a good article in Motorsport magazine a few months ago about the Porsche/Audi F1 approaches and the angst between them.
And I don't think anyone has a good-to-go engine just sat around. They are far too complicated for that now.
it was around 2015/16, im sure some testing was a lot more recent but may be thinking of toher people - tech has moved on, but they still have capability -they just need people back as they all buggered off back in to the main Porsche family or to other Msport teams.
Audi are using the research from that engine (old article, but a bit of relevant info)...
[i]Which would seem to leave both Porsche and Honda with something of a time-pressured dilemma. Porsche — which was planning on co-operating with Red Bull Powertrains — potentially has no power unit and no team. Ironically, Audi’s power unit will be based upon an initial Porsche R&D project for a non-ERS-h hybrid F1 unit of a few years ago, before dieselgate and before that technical group was broken up (ironically with many of the personnel transferring to Audi).[/i]
I can't link to the article I read as it was in the print version of the magazine.
Mick to Mercedes as reserve - he's playing a very long game here!...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes-announces-schumacher-as-2023-f1-reserve-driver/
A sentiment appointment, surely?
pondo
Full MemberA sentiment appointment, surely?
maybe, but they’ll need work out of him. And if they need work out of him he’ll have to be useful. They’ve also lost their current reserve drivers I believe, so not many other options with F1 experience
How do Porsche build their LMDH engine if they don’t have a manufacturing or testing facility?
Haas, founded as Haas (American Ferrari), assembled in the Marussia F1 factory, formally Ascari.
How do Porsche build their LMDH engine if they don’t have a manufacturing or testing facility?
They don't have F1 standard facilities. The lmdh engine is based on one of their road engines. It's a BOP series so doesn't need anything cutting edge (although clearly reliability, driveability and fuel consumption very important)
If F1 could mandate for a carbon neutral high efficiency hybrid to make a noise like a 1990s Ferrari or Honda V12, a BMW V10 or even a Renault RS01 then I'd be happy.
Here's a little festive F1 treat for you to pass some time
If you have even a passing interest in Senna, Prost, or late 80's f1 car engineering, I can't tell you how much you need to watch this! It's a constant stream of interesting titbits
Ooo, will look forward to watching that later - ta! 🙂
Will give that a watch later, cheers
Lose the red off the rear wing and that would be what id imagine Darth Vader's F1 car would be!
Thanks for sharing that - watched it a short while ago and some really great insights about how they went about F1 at the time. 👍
I really need to search YouTube for more like it.
I loved that vid too, very nerdy and interesting!
Yikes - so it looks like Cadillac want to enter F1 supported by Andretti. Do Cadillac even have any sporting heritage to draw on? My immediate thoughts when I hear the name are wallowy barges with blacked out windows and chromed wheels...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/andretti-teams-up-with-gm-for-cadillac-f1-entry-bid/
The words cadillac and performance really don't work together
i think cadillac have recent history in american endurance or sports car racing. and probably something from oval racing in the 1930’s.
i’ve not closely followed the andretti f1 saga, but do recall toto objecting to andretti on the grounds that they brought nothing to f1 beyond another team. being connected with a car company could be their answer to this.
i like the idea of a pushrod engine in f1, even if it does have to have a hybrid system attached.
so it looks like Cadillac want to enter F1 supported by Andretti. Do Cadillac even have any sporting heritage to draw on? My immediate thoughts when I hear the name are wallowy barges with blacked out windows and chromed wheels…
Came here expecting just such a response! Iz not disappointed. This should provide plenty comedy value 😄😄😄
This should provide plenty comedy value
Andretti Autosport has won 17 drivers championships in 7 different series and 6 Indy 500 victories since the 90's. I think you'll find it hard looking for laughs if you think they're going to be a comedy set-up.
It would be really nice if they tweaked the hybrid rules to suit Cadillac
I think the obvious that most folks seem to be missing is that Caddy is owned by General Motors.
I think you’ll find it hard looking for laughs if you think they’re going to be a comedy set-up.
Nah, you misunderstand me. If I was any good at Photoshop, I'd be grafting sidepods and wings onto pictures of a pimped out Escalade with 20" Chrome rims...
I think the obvious that most folks seem to be missing is that Caddy is owned by General Motors
Well aware of that, but GM also own Chevrolet who at least make sports cars (well, American sports cars). Their choice to use the Cadillac brand is what puzzles me.
I think it's a bit lame that the largest car manufacturer in the US wants to join F1 and use someone else's power unit. Either do it properly right from the start or don't bother.
Still puzzled why F1 want to keep on attracting Car companies to start teams.
Don’t they remember the early 2000’s when they all came in, didn’t win and then exited a few years later, and left the sport in a mess???
Either do it properly right from the start or don’t bother
best of both worlds for GM. They get to be in F1, the investment is cheap and “not really” a works team, so if it goes pear shaped they just get to walk away. If Andretti is successful, then GM can take the time to build new engines in a few years after they know what they’re doing.
I will bet money that other car firms will watch with interest. Right now it’s a perfect time to get into F1 where there’s an actual return on your investment.
Their choice to use the Cadillac brand is what puzzles me.
GM slimmed down their brands after the recession 15 years ago. Chevy is their affordable brand, Cadillac is their luxury brand, but that includes performance vehicles to compete with BMW, etc.
Problem for me is that I doubt that GM top management understand what it will take to become competitive. They will basically need to hire someone like Binotto and just give him a billion dollars and five years, then stand back and let him run things as he pleases. I can't see that happening - they will want quarterly progress updates and probably think they'll be winning championships within the first two or three years.
^^^
Yeah, Vlad approves!
Too much mocking of Cadillac. The CTSV was THE best sports saloon of the past decade. Better than Mercedes, BMW and Audi. They can build a great engine and chassis. Let’s see what they come up with.
Cadillac have been competing in Prototype in the IMSA championship, as part of GM Corvette have notable success in Gt endurance racing- including type wins at Le Mans ……. And Andretti are super successful too. Sounds great to me 🤷♂️
Cadillac have been competing in Prototype in the IMSA championship, as part of GM Corvette have notable success in Gt endurance racing- including type wins at Le Mans ……. And Andretti are super successful too.
Indycar runs spec chassis and aero kits, and there are only two engine manufacturers. It still takes a decent amount of tech knowhow to set up the cars and win championships, but F1 is an order of magnitude more complex (and expensive). The last couple of decades have been dominated by Chip Ganassi and Penske (like Red Bull and Merc in F1), with Andretti like Ferrari, McLaren, or Renault - often competitive, winning a championship here and there, but never really delivering on the promise.
The Corvettes are impressive cars, but their engine technology is pretty basic. Nothing in that program will be relevant to setting up an F1 engine program. The Chevy IndyCar engine is build by Ilmor (which is no longer connected to the Mercedes F1 engine program). Ilmor and Honda are struggling to supply the existing Indycar teams, they've delayed the introduction of new generation engines because they just don't have the resources to develop new engines and supply the existing ones. Which means that the existing Ilmor engineers and factory can't contribute anything to an F1 program.
It's not impossible that GM and Andretti will succeed in F1, but it will be extremely difficult and their Indycar and IMSA experience won't really be much use. They will need to hire experienced F1 technical staff, give them the budget to set up a world-class factory, and then give them five years to build a competitive team. I hope they succeed but, realistically, they are more likely to end up like Jaguar, BMW, or Toyota than Mercedes.
They have to convince F1 first!
It’s my understanding that they aren’t planning on building an F1 engine initially, just doing a tie-in (possibly with Honda).
Building a mid-field chassis shouldn’t be too difficult with GMs resources.
Decent article as to why Andretti/Cadillac isn't being greeted with open arms...
It’s my understanding that they aren’t planning on building an F1 engine initially, just doing a tie-in (possibly with Honda).
Have Honda actually confirmed that they have any interest in helping GM? Why would they? There is some speculation about that, based on Honda and GM cooperating on road car EV technology, but that has pretty much zero relevance for F1.
Building a mid-field chassis shouldn’t be too difficult with GMs resources.
Does GM have an F1 grade wind-tunnel that is sitting idle? Do they have the test rigs and simulators needed to develop an F1 car sitting idle? Do they have an engine factory with hundreds of technicians experienced in developing and building F1 engines sitting idle?
The answer to all those questions is "no." Which means they have two years to build state of the art facilities and hire staff, then one year to actually build a car to compete in 2026. They are looking at a customer Renault engine deal (because Renault have no customers and will be required to supply engines under the rules). GM can afford to pay for an F1 program, but nothing they are doing now will transfer. They will need to set up new facilities and hire experience technical staff from other teams. Not impossible, but extremely difficult. Running around the back of the field competing with Haas and Williams will not be what GM management expect from a works backed programme.
LOL - welcome to F1 Michael - F1 has always been and always will be about greed and self interest! 🙂
Former Mercedes Chief Strategist James Vowles to be the new Williams Team Principle. I wish him all the luck and hope he and Williams do well, but I'll be honest startegy hasn't always been my favourite part of the Mercedes team
Williams appoint James Vowles as new team principal - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/64260044
Seems like quite a step up from strategist to TP! Good luck to him.
Seems like quite a step up from strategist to TP! Good luck to him.
There's no gardening leave which means that Merc have agreed to release him. He was apparently favourite to replace Toto as Merc TP when he eventually steps down. My guess is that this gives Vowles some experience running a team so he'll be ready to take over at Merc when Toto retires. It's always possible that Toto is the mystery owner of Williams, of course.
