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Yes Bez,
The fact that Verstappen hasn't had a team mate who can come anywhere near him shows how exeptional he is as a driver.
The rivalry has a man vs boy narrative arc running through it, you know there's going to be a movie made about this somewhere down the line (I'd have Seb's character narrating it!), Max is unwittingly making himself a villain for the ages!
He looked wounded and surprised when the crowd turned on him, he and Red Bull have been riding high on the historical Hamilton hate this season but I think the broader tide of public opinion is beginning to turn in Hamilton's favour as he's shown maturity by playing 'rope a dope' with the young pretender.
A lot of it depends upon who you have in your corner mentor wise and both have been spoilt in this regard but spoilt in different ways leading to different outcomes.
The Audi – McLaren news is bonkers
What news? There is speculation galore, I haven't seen anything that would qualify as news.
As per the tweet on the last page, Autocar are certainly claiming its happening
Autocar are certainly claiming its happening
Autocar are claiming "a source" said it's happening. Until the companies make an official statement it's just speculation.
Yes, that's why I wrote
assuming it gets confirmed
@mashr- RB seemingly did some work on their wing at this race too...
Oh come on 🙄 he’s using the “stick of truth” on a Lego car, lighten up
Not sure what a stick of truth is, but RB seem to bring the Victor Meldrew out in me.
This is so enthralling - it seems like both drivers want this WDC more than any other. Lewis because 8 titles would solidify his GOAT status, and you kind of imagine he might do something else once he's achieved that. Max, because he knows that even if he were to win the next 5 or 6 WDCs, this will always be 'the one where he was up against Hamilton'. They'll make Hollywood films about this in 30 years' time.
I can't be anything other than cynical about Max's driving at turn 4, though (and the stewards' response). It seemed like Max was being extremely reckless in the full knowledge that he'd be favoured if they both had to retire, which is dangerous not to mention unsporting. It was extremely similar to what happened at Silverstone, and HAM got a significant penalty there (although, clearly came off better ultimately). But I'm no expert in these things, not even an armchair one.
I am looking forward to the Max footage coming out. He’s claiming now that his tyres were gone
@mashr- RB seemingly did some work on their wing at this race too…
Interesting, any other details floating around on this one?
I am looking forward to the Max footage coming out
Well you either turned the steering or you didn't. Should be pretty unequivocal really. and I don't believe the stewards had real-time steering sensor information for the decision. "The dog ate my memory card" is coming from Horner 😉
One, potentially delicious, option is that somehow Lewis wins this year's WDC title and MV goes on to be "the greatest driver never to win a WDC". With the regulation changes next season and George Russell coming into Merc this may turn into the season that was the best chance MV had to win one.
Sure, being realistic about it, the chances are good that MV will win multiple championships but I'm not sure he will get to 7 or 8.
“Penalty for what?” says Horner:
“If it had been the other way round, I’d have told my sporting director to have a moan about it, but I wouldn’t have expected to get anything from it.”
MV goes on to be “the greatest driver never to win a WDC
Already has the most wins without a title, 19 for MV, 16 for Stirling Moss and 13 for DC.
More than quite a few champions.
MV has won as many this year as Mansel did in his dominant 92 season, obviously a few more nowadays
Is saying something is "wholly inaccurate" the same as saying it's not true??
been talks of this over the last week, all parts of the VW group have abandoned F1 engine projects and teams. The engine will stay the same for a while, but suspect if it goes ahead you may find 2 parts of the VAG group in F1 eventually..
Interesting, any other details floating around on this one?
I do recall Horner being interviewed prior to the race, I can’t remember what was said exactly but I’m fairly certain Horner confirmed RB had carried out some work to the rear wing of one of the RBs due to ‘reliability issues’.
Cancel that. Just found the clip and they were discussing Mexico pre quali.
Horner said the RB rear wing was worked on pre quali in Mexico under parc ferme, followed by a miffed Toto complaining Merc couldn’t do the same this week.
RB have worked on the rear wings before the race in all of the last 3 races.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/what-is-behind-red-bulls-rear-wing-troubles/6762903/
MV goes on to be “the greatest driver never to win a WDC
Already has the most wins without a title, 19 for MV, 16 for Stirling Moss and 13 for DC.
Sorry, can't let this one pass! DC one of the worlds greats?!?! Seriously? 😃😃
The Stewards decision is really quite odd, isn't it? You can see the Lewis slowed and would have been able to make to corner and to take the lead if Max had made ANY attempt to make the corner at all. He didn't even start to brake until he was almost at the apex, he knew that he'd either spear into Lewis or force him off. Lewis backed out as he had room to do so and there was no collision.
Max would've caused a collision if Lewis didn't back out a little. They ruled no fault.
In the mirror oposite of this at silverstone, lewis is on the inside (with more of his car alongside Max than Max had in Brazil) and max goes full tilt around the outside and doesn't back out of it, but continues, not braking, but turning in, causing a collision.
Max did cause a collision because he chose not to back out of it a little and Lewis was found to be predominantly at fault.
Which rule is it?
I think your allowed to make repairs and minor aerodynamic changes under Parc Ferme rules once the car is released from scrutineering.
RickDraper
Full MemberRB have worked on the rear wings before the race in all of the last 3 races.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/what-is-behind-red-bulls-rear-wing-troubles/6762903//blockquote >
That only talks about Mexico and USA too? Was published before Brazil: "While the next race in Brazil can throw up some challenges for teams, the circumstances that triggered the wing problems for Red Bull in the USA and Mexico are unlikely to resurface there."
Are people referring to gurney tape as it’s often called?
I always assumed it was allowed to be added under parc ferme as it seems to be a regular occurrence.
Or am I confusing it with something else?
Sorry, can’t let this one pass! DC one of the worlds greats?!?! Seriously
No, he's just third on the list of 'most wins without a title'🤷♂️
bluearsedfly
Free Member
Or am I confusing it with something else?
Gurney Flap? Don't think i've heard of Gurney tape
@mashr- watching Ted's Notebook post Brazil he confirmed yes, RB had to repair the rear wing again under parc ferme. Same issue as the US and Mexico and to do with the snubber apparently.
That is weird, can probably ignore the Austin issue but odd to have the same problem at Mexico and Brazil
Gurney Flap? Don’t think i’ve heard of Gurney tape
Yes, gurney tape as in applied to the trailing edge of the rear wing.
I’ve heard of a gurney flap and aero tape but could have sworn I’d heard gurney tape mentioned previously.
Sorry, can’t let this one pass! DC one of the worlds greats?!?! Seriously? 😃😃
He is certainly working hard for his red bull cheer leader salary at the moment
cheer leader salary
I held my nose and bought a month of Now TV to see me to the season end. DC has been dreadful MW better, but it was getting to be too obvious. I presume Turn 4 was a “racing incident”, naturally?
Gurney Flap played a live set on Marc Riley's show last night
. I presume Turn 4 was a “racing incident”, naturally?
Of course! It was funny to listen to it live on the radio, where everyone was 100% in agreement that it was a penalty, then see the C4 highlights - DC was the only person (apart from Horner) who said it was fine.
Apparently the stewards "couldn't get" on board footage from Max's car when they made their decision.
Apparently the stewards “couldn’t get” on board footage from Max’s car when they made their decision.
No but Masi has said that they've requested the forward facing camera and 360 footage to review post race. Still possible that Masi wants to "say hi" to Max again 😀
Who do they get it from? I assume F1 not Red Bull. If Red Bull I imagine it'll be "lost"?
The commercial rights holder owns all the TV footage and releasing it will give them a load more airtime/views/hits so expect they'll release it as soon as they can.
Masi has the same footage as every armchair official. As I said “dog ate my memory stick” incoming… and a five point fine and relegation to third. Perhaps.
Just read a Hamilton interview...he doesn't think it should be a penalty tho I suspect he may be saying the opposite of he hadn't won!
Alfa have announced Zhou as Bottas' team mate for next year, which completes the grid. Until everyone starts speculating on someone (usually Alonso) quitting mid season.
He's not exactly excelled in F2 but I guess the marketing value of a Chinese driver will be worth a fair bit for Alfa. The €30m he's reportedly bringing can't have hurt either!
Alfa have announced Zhou as Bottas’ team mate for next year, which completes the grid. Until everyone starts speculating on someone (usually Alonso) quitting mid season.
Has Hamilton announced he's moving to Ferrari yet?
If Alpine's 2022 car is rubbish I think Alonso will walk. No point staying while Renault try and polish a turd.
He’s not exactly excelled in F2
He's second with a few rounds still to go and has 2 or 3 wins hasn't he? That's not too shabby. he's also a F1 test driver IIRC. But yeah, It won't hurt the marketing to have the first Chinese driver in your team.
He just didn't bother trying to make the apex. It'd be more telling to see the telemetry regarding steering inputs and his braking point on every other lap of the race at that corner...
For me it shows that Max was never going to make the corner at that speed, but he'd have known that anyway. So instead of slowing to make the turn he keeps his speed, runs wide and gives Hamilton the choice of crashing or bailing out of the pass.
Can they get Albon to try it a few times to see if he gets round the corner?
He just didn’t bother trying to make the apex.
And yet he managed it every lap prior. I wondered what it was about this lap that made him run so wide...
It’d be more telling to see the telemetry regarding steering inputs and his braking point on every other lap of the race at that corner…
Yeah this.
Also INAF1D but wouldn't you expect to see more steering applied at the turn in point rather than the exit?
And yet he managed it every lap prior. I wondered what it was about this lap that made him run so wide…
claims his tyres were going
Also INAF1D but wouldn’t you expect to see more steering applied at the turn in point rather than the exit?
He starts turning more as soon as he's finished braking. I think he's understeering at that point so more input probably wouldn't have helped. One for the telemetry
Just racing innit! 🙂
Max does momentarily hold his wheel stationary in the middle of the turn to run wide. He's careful not to put in any opposite lock, but he does hold it still longer than he should if he had any intention of staying on the track. That plus his intended late wide-arc.
I have to say, that looks ok to me…
Yeah me too, he's obviously braking a lot later than he normally would've done, but you can clearly see he's fighting it and heaving on the steering wheel to try to get it to turn. I think the stewards called it correctly on the day.
I think the stewards called it correctly on the day.
You can bet that if Hamilton had done that to Verstappen, RB would be on the radio demanding penalties for Merc.
The fact that they were straight on the radio saying "it's just racing, it's all fair" indicates they knew that it was right on the edge of fairness and legality anyway and there was always the possibility that the stewards might decide that way...
One rule for them...
You can bet that if Hamilton had done that to Verstappen, RB would be on the radio demanding penalties for Merc.
Oh sure, without a doubt, I think even Horner said he would told his Sporting Director to get on the blower to the stewards. I think we're all aware of how RB operate. But, once all the dust has settled from the weekend, this particular incident looks to me at least like two guys racing hard.
You'd have to be a lot more informed about the performance of F1 cars the I am to make any firm conclusions about intent based on that video.
Clearly, he:
1) brakes too late
2) is going to miss the apex by a country mile and doesn't really try
3) is understeering on the exit of the corner
The question is how much he anticipated what would happen. I'm going with 'completely' but it's surely impossible to prove? But also isn't the rule that you can't run people off track, regardless of intent? In which case surely Max is guilty?
There's a thread on Twitter by Alex Brundle which goes into it in some detail (including that they BOTH braked 10m later than before)
Have you got a link? That would be great to read..
It looks like exceeding track limits to gain an advantage, same as braking too late into a chicane and going straight through.
But stewards may have decided that neither of them was going to make the turn from there, and just left it at that.
Far be it from me to question Alex Brundle but surely when you're on the outside line you can brake later because the turning circle is greater offering more grip?
Perhaps what he meant to say is that Hamilton's braking was perfect and he would easily have stayed on track, whilst the driver on the inside would have had to have braked earlier than the driver on the outside in order to make the apex.
We've all learnt this the hard way when cornering on our bicycles.
It also helps if you turn the steering wheel before you get to the corner rather than once you're nearly off the track. He didn't start steering until he was off the racing line and on the dirty (slippery) side of the track. Had he tried to steer whilst he was on the bit of the track with rubber laid down then the tyres would of found traction and he'd have made the corner, (albeit in second place).
You don't need telemetry to work this one put, anyone whose ever ridden a bicycle can tell that Verstappen deliberately got that corner as wrong as he could in every possible way.
I have to say, that looks ok to me…
Yeah, racing incident.
They both braked later than usual and Max just understeered wide.
Lewis was never going to go around the outside on that lap either.
Putting Red Bulls moaning to one side, this is one of the closest seasons in years. These guys just need to race it out wheel to wheel.
You have to read his replies to other Twitter users' questions to get all the info....but it's clear he thinks it was fine. I'm not aware he has any links to Redbull and probably knows more about driving cars fast than all of us put together! (Apologies if anyone here is a proper racing driver)
Mercedes have asked for a review. The biggest problem now is that if they try and add on a 5/10 second penalty the RB will just say they were cruising so that isn’t fair…… which then starts is heading to court, possibly after the season
Verstappen deliberately got that corner as wrong as he could in every possible way.
Perfect summary. Whether it amounts to a punishable breach of the sporting regulations I don’t know.
Mercedes have asked for a review. The biggest problem now is that if they try and add on a 5/10 second penalty the RB will just say they were cruising so that isn’t fair…… which then starts is heading to court, possibly after the season
Looking at the rulebook it seems that if the penalty is after the end of the race they can go up to 30 seconds time penalty or a grid drop of any number of places at the next event.
The grid drop would obviate the whinging about time penalties and I expect merc would prefer that option too, as it gives bottas another chance to hold max up/put him in a crash or bail position. If only bottas could work out how to defend his position...
Thanks for the link, that was some intetesting reading!
I’m not buying that the tyres were gone line, Max clearly makes every apex before and after going wide.
For me it’s the lack of steering input until he’s sailed past the apex and got on the marbles.
Whether or not it’s worth a penalty now I’m not sure, I’m inclined to say move on to the next race but what happens next time?
I still don’t get why it’s taken this long for the footage to surface, every other angle from every other car is usually available instantaneously.
Far be it from me to question Alex Brundle but surely when you’re on the outside line you can brake later because the turning circle is greater offering more grip?
But you’ve also got to factor in that the inside line is where all the rubber has been put down and the outside line is where all the crap goes. So the outside line is almost always the far slower line in F1 (and basically any motorsport apart from oval racing)
I still don’t get why it’s taken this long for the footage to surface, every other angle from every other car is usually available instantaneously.
You only get one feed from the car at a time, they were using the rear facing camera on Verstappens car, so had to wait to download the footage. But even then it’s take nearly 2 full days to come out….
nickc
He’s second with a few rounds still to go and has 2 or 3 wins hasn’t he? That’s not too shabby. he’s also a F1 test driver IIRC. But yeah, It won’t hurt the marketing to have the first Chinese driver in your team
Yeah but that's not a brilliant achievement when it's your third go at it after being trounced by your teammates twice.
True in ome sense mashr but remember that Max wasn't on the racing line though, the racing line is where Lewis was. You'll carry more speed approaching a corner from a wider angle than approaching tight to the apex.
Kind of glad they didn't penalise him during the race though shan't complain if they apply a retrospective penalty.
It’s fairly clear that Max’s line was intentional. If they both braked 10m later than the previous lap then that’s pretty telling, because Max is way off the racing line and would have had to brake earlier to make the tighter radius. The steering inputs on the in-car seem, from my armchair, to suggest that he’s deliberately taking a shallow line with a wide and slow exit, but whether he intended to go quite so far off the track himself is debatable—at that point he’s probably run out of front grip but it doesn’t matter.
Anyway, in Proper F1 that shouldn’t be a penalty. Whether it should be under the actual sporting regs I don’t know. I’m curious about what new evidence Mercedes are bringing. It had better be good, considering the humiliating smack down that Red Bull got after Silverstone…
i’m curious about what new evidence Mercedes are bringing. It had better be good,
I believe it's the video from Verstappen's car, that the stewards did not have access to until it was retrieved after the race - as said above they only had access to the rear camera feed during the race.
As I think understand it (probably incorrectly) Mercedes have just asked for the "right to review"...the stewards (or FIA?) could say just say "no, sod off", or they could say "ok we'll review it.....ok done that, now sod off"
But stewards may have decided that neither of them was going to make the turn from there, and just left it at that.
Thing is, Lewis's rear wheel was ahead of Max's front and he disappears backwards as soon as they decide to brake, with the outside line as well, so it ain't like they hit the same braking marker. Max was never gonna make the turn from there (we'll never know whether Lewis would), so I guess the question is whether there's anything in the regs that permits driving yourself and an attacker off the track to prevent a pass.
Alex Brundle comments
You have to read his replies to other Twitter users’ questions to get all the info….but it’s clear he thinks it was fine. I’m not aware he has any links to Redbull and probably knows more about driving cars fast than all of us put together! (Apologies if anyone here is a proper racing driver)
Really interesting, commendably patient answers - and a fantastic come-back when someone says there've been LOADS of outside passes at T4. "And you've been through there in?" 🙂
As I think understand it (probably incorrectly) Mercedes have just asked for the “right to review”…the stewards (or FIA?) could say just say “no, sod off”, or they could say “ok we’ll review it…..ok done that, now sod off”
Yeah, my money is on them agreeing to consider the extra video footage then saying that it was a racing incident and no action is necessary. I suspect Merc are just playing this up as a dig at RB for the Silverstone nonsense.
You know all the analysis, telemetry and expert opinion hasn't changed a single sing since we first saw the incident.
Not only did we know what we saw when we saw it, we knew we were going to see it before we saw it!
Considering Verstappen doesn't have the experience of the lower formulas, he doesn't have that experience of constant wheel to wheel racing in equally matched cars, he was fast tracked into F1 and hasn't had to fight for the privilege like some others.
So in one sense, although driving really fast is in his DNA, actually 'racing' isn't. That's why we see him make so many poor judgement calls, having always been in one of the fastest cars he hasn't actually got as much experience as many other drivers when it comes to racecraft.
George Russell on the other hand....I think all this talk about Versappen eventually being a multiple times world champion is a bit premature. Right now, the thought that this year might be his only chance might well be in his head...
So in one sense, although driving really fast is in his DNA
His dad scored 17 points total in f1, so I hardly think that comment applies 😁
In fact (according to wiki), he's had about the same number of years in f1 as he has in his various sentences for assault.
His mother was better, apparently
From what I remember of Jos, he was a decent driver but he had Schumacher as teammate in his rookie season. That's a tough challenge for a rookie. Problem is, he just seems to be a total **** out of the car. Very hard guy to like.
https://twitter.com/MattyWTF1/status/1460649535504531462
His dad scored 17 points total in f1, so I hardly think that comment applies
To be fair, there were less races and a lot less points back then - only decent car he ever drove was that part first season for Benetton (and in one of those ten races they tried to flambe him!). I'm no fan of his, you understand, but fair is fair.
