[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Listening to PM question time now as he keeps banging on about risk this or risk that out of EU ... he is toast!

PM kept banging on about stronger and able to change things in EU.

errhhh ... hello ... you are incapable of leadership.

What an over inflated view that thinks BritLand can changed EU it's more like bowing to EU bureaucrats.

Funny to watch the faces on the Tory front bench during PMQ . The tall BSer on his right (our left) is keeping wonderfully stone faced!

Meanwhile two shadow front bench ladies look like they are engrossed in candy crush!! 😉

Flanagj - well that's a different argument to the one I commented on

binners - Member
Then I remembered that I'm a bald fat bloke who can't dance, but I am an illustrator, so I did this instead....

I ain't reinventing the wheel so here you go ...

[b]Vote OUT or Leave[/b]

[img] [/img]

What an over inflated view that thinks [s]BritLand[/s] rUK can [s]changed EU[/s] regain their economic empire; it's more like bowing to [s]EU[/s]chinese & corporate bureaucrats.

It is supremely arrogant (but an easy trap) to assume that the well educated / informed / more intelligent have a more valid opinion.

Cornwall as a region has benefitted hugely from EU money, but this simply isn't recognised - cussedness (a Cornish characteristic that I happily call my own), lack of information, lack of interest...?

Agreed on the first sentence. This is not EU money, it's British money less a substantial tax transfer to the rest of the EU members and to candidate members plus of course to cover EU bureaucracy.

Jobs stats clearly showing business is getting on with business and largely ignoring Brexit referendum

PMQ's - Speaker called question after question from Remain campaigners, 1 or none (?) from a Brexit campaigner. I see Westminster is taking on EU levels of democracy and transparency.

Osbourne has shot himself firmly in both feet today. He's scaremongering Brexit budget cannot pass as Corbyn at PMQ's has confirmed Labour would vote against as would at least 57 Tories. We need not worry as when we get a Leave vote Cameron and Osbourne are finished anyway, as I said I can't see either surviving even in the event of Remain.

Police have intervened on the Thames to keep Geldof away from Farage's boat, idiot and dangerous moves by Geldof

A further documentary of the lack of democracy at the EU and how the fundamental promises about sovereignty in the 1975 Referendum leaflet on the European [b]Economic Community[/b] and proven to have been totally false.

DaRC_L - Member
Just correcting the typoes...

and this ...
[img] [/img]

Edukator - Reformed Troll

The French being unhappy with the EU is very different to wanting a Frexit

I do apologise.
At least we can all agree that as the EU project continues, the people that live in it like it less and less.

Yay EU!

Jobs stats clearly showing business is getting on with business and largely ignoring Brexit referendum

How do they support your ideas that immigration (there are clear stats on the numbers in the ONS report) has a negative impact on employment and/or wages?

I think we both know that businesses are certainly not getting on with things. Nearly everyone I talk to has delayed plans and investment/hiring

1 or none (?) from a Brexit campaigner.

Must have watched a different PMQs...

Osbourne has shot himself firmly in both feet today. He's scaremongering Brexit budget cannot pass as Corbyn at PMQ's has confirmed Labour would vote against as would at least 57 Tories. We need not worry as when we get a Leave vote Cameron and Osbourne are finished anyway, as I said I can't see either surviving even in the event of Remain.

Either way the Tories are in a bloody mess as predicted. After the correct vote, I hope that Dave kills the BSers with love. Promote Bojo to Health and give Gove Wales to sort out Port Talbot given his passion for the place - either tha or regional policy/fishing!!

are you going to answer the question Jambalaya??

No, I am not delighted @Nipper, I have to say I don't agree at all with the TUC's interpretation of Priti's remarks

@molgrips of course the Germans want the UK to Remain. If we are not contributing a net £10bn a big chunk of that will fall on them not least as the EU budget payments are calculated on a relative economic strength basis and our exit will make them relatively even stronger. Also its not lost on them how much we buy from Germany, not least in cars where we are Germany's third largest export market. Any tariffs imposed would mean potentially lower sales and them needing to mitigate the impact of tariffs by charging lower prices = lower profit margins. Also free from the EU we could negotiate deals with Japan for example including technology sharing on electric cars something the Germans are very weak on having focused on diesel, we know where that has lead.

molgrips - Member

Depressing thought for the day: I don't want to have to tell my daughters that they won't be able to go and work in other countries like Daddy did. They'd be stuck at home, unless they emigrate.

Hopefully, if they're brought up well enough to find employment abroad, they'll be intelligent enough to know you're talking out of your emotive bunghole.

I mean, really [i]Daddy[/i]? 🙄

Depressing thought for the day: I don't want to have to tell my daughters that they won't be able to go and work in other countries like Daddy did. They'd be stuck at home, unless they emigrate.

I've worked abroad only in non-EU countries namely US and Singapore. If you did make such a statement you'd be misleading your family and I know you wouldn't want to do that. One of my daughter's went to Denmark on Erasmus something which is independent of the EU and the other did an MBA in Spain along with mostly Latin American's

I have no interest in anyone, be it business or individual who wants to remain solely on the basis they benefit financially from the EU partnership. That to me stinks of the 'me, me, me selfish attitude'.

Again - wot?

I'm voting in because WE ALL benefit. You included. Not selfish is it?

Must have watched a different PMQs...

Question after question accepted from In campaigners, a bit like an STW thread in terms of representation of public opinion eh ? Sky (Faisal) just said he thought it was only 1 or 2 questions from remotely Leave orientated MPs

I think we need to agree there are scenarios and opinions where we are better or worse off either Leave or Remain. It's a matter of opinion. There is no certainty either way.

the-muffin-man - Member

So are the comments of the Head Man at JCB to be dismissed as well then (he wants to Leave), or is his opinion of lesser value than a Rolls Royce man?

The Bamfords (the family that own JCB) are in a sulk with the EU because they got caught (and fined) breaking price-fixing laws.

Out of interest, who established the Erasmus scheme that both our kids have benefitted from?

[i]I think we need to agree there are scenarios and opinions where we are better or worse off either Leave or Remain. It's a matter of opinion. There is no certainty either way. [/i]

Ok, but also accept that there is a financial cost/value to each of those. Now price up both sides and tell me that yours "adds up".

Jambas - i only caught the final moments. I understand that it was a staged PMQs but that is not the same as claiming that there were only 1 or no questions from BSers. I saw more than that even in the short bit I watched.

Perhaps, the comments should be put in the same category as "many millions of Poles" etc.

What I can say though is that a positive mental attitude would make the world of difference.

Bob's view :

If a business is too big to change direction then said business is too big and should not exist. Change happens to us all and you just have to deal with it. Big business should not be treated any differently.

But, business investment decisions are made over decades. How long would the R&D, testing, type approval, manufacture and product support period be for a new Roll Royce aero engine??? 20-30 yrs???

A business needs a believable long term view to take those sort of decisions...

... and if the electorate decides to change the UK's relationship with the rest of the world, then a fleet of foot business is likely to decide to invest elsewhere.

I look on the other side of the coin and see new business and trade opportunities that will come about. A refreshing change.

Doesn't come from nowhere... Business, of the volume and employment numbers that we're talking about comes from an established development / manufacturing / commercial base - which is scarcely what it needs to be now, let alone what it might be after a self-imposed financial crisis.

jamba

This is not EU money, it's British money less a substantial tax transfer to the rest of the EU members and to candidate members plus of course to cover EU bureaucracy.

It is and it isn't.

The raw maths say we pay more in that we get back, so yes based on the numbers I get your argument...

BUT, successive UK Govts have a very poor track record in areas like Cornwall.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme ]Erasmus[/url]

Just for jambalaya's benefit.

But if your're happy to remove opportunity then that is your call.

If you have the money you can obviously cover your children's fees, or they can do as a friend did, get a couple of jobs that asks no questions to pay for the living costs and the fees and know that it is only for a few years.

One of my daughter's went to Denmark on Erasmus something which is independent of the EU

No. It is not.

From
[url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme [/url]

The Erasmus Programme (European Region Action Scheme for the Mobility of University Students[1]) is a European Union (EU) student exchange programme established in 1987. Erasmus+, or Erasmus Plus, is the new programme combining all the EU's current schemes for education, training, youth and sport, which was started in January 2014.

This is one area where the Swiss are already feeling the results of their No Vote on movement of people. Swiss students have been suspended from Erasmus

Sky=Murdoch, why should i treat anything that comes out of there as remotely unbiased?

Permanent overruling of UK law by EU law and the EU Court

Oops

OK THM, this is one of the push factors for me, i.e. the supremacy or otherwise of our own judicial system. Why is the Vote Leave assertion wrong? It might get me more than 56% remain per the FT questionnaire.

A chunk of my vote is taken up by having a French wife/1/2 French family. What frustrates me is the main protagonists are truly not credible on either side. I would far rather the whole EU membership voted on reviewing the EU structure. In or Out actually limits the UK in the future. However, as we are to vote in or out,for me it has to be in. Mainly because world and world politics are changing and we are not on the other side yet. It will be my kids who hopefully benefit from that place in time.

Sorry but I've been away...
How does a positive mental attitude solve tariffs, massive uncertainty, spending the same money 6 times? Some times people being honest are people being honest - like positive mental attitude hasn't cured cancer or fixed the middle east.

Not sure where the info comes from and I hate round numbers when there's a vague range, but according to the French version of France 24 Switzerland pays two-three billion euros to be able to trade with the EU. So if Britain negotiates a deal post Brexit expect it to be expensive.

Edit: have to go to the bank to do some further Brexit preparations but I'll try and check the France 24 claims later.

The ECJ is the Court that determines issues relating to EU laws - if the governments here implement those laws incorrectly then the ECJ is the final arbiter.

There are UK representative judges that sit in the ECJ.

One of my daughter's went to Denmark on Erasmus something which is independent of the EU

My,are you so ill informed about what you are voting for,
or do you just not care about other peoples kids, now that yours have benfited from it?

The Swiss were booted out of Erasmus for trying to opt out of the free movement agreement

With a country that prides itself on education and where pharamceutical research is such a big part of their economy it was big blow and costs the Swiss 25million to keep access to it, the same way any non-eu partner member has to.
We all know our government wont be looking after our students that way.

Its one of the many reasons that UK Universities are so against Brexit

OK THM, this is one of the push factors for me, i.e. the supremacy or otherwise of our own judicial system. Why is the Vote Leave assertion wrong?

For the same reason that if I say black is white, I am wrong. The UK Parliament is sovereign (as agreed a few pages back) - this is a matter of fundamental UK constitutional law.

On a practical level, less than 7% of UK primary legislation and less than 15% of UK secondary legislation make direct or passing references to EU law.

The UK is neither permanently overuled by EU law nor the EU Court - it is Brexit BS

From my legal friends

In practice, the UK has had significant influence over the development of single market legislation particularly in relation to telecoms, energy and financial services where EU legislation is largely based on the UK model.158 In other areas, notably pharmaceutical regulation and competition law, UK legislation is closely modelled on EU law.That would remain the case even if the UK were to leave the EU but the UK would cease to have any influence over the future development of that law.

Indeed, if the UK were to leave the EU, it would have no real say on EU legislation, but much of its business would remain subject to EU law in order for UK products and services to be accepted in other EU countries.

[b]Importantly, in those areas where the UK has objected to EU laws on key issues such as immigration and the role of the British currency, the UK has secured opt outs so that it can control its borders159 and keep the pound.160 In addition, the recently agreed Settlement contains new safeguards to protect non-Eurozone countries, including the UK, from discrimination by Eurozone member states in the single market.161 Importantly, these provisions ensure that the UK, and other non-Eurozone member states, will not be required to fund eurozone bailouts.162[/b]

[This is why Jambas cannot answer the question on bailouts]

The Settlement also contains a provision stating that EU Treaty “references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom” so that the UK is not committed to further EU political integration.163

You can tick the correct box now....

The ECJ is the Court that determines issues relating to EU laws - if the governments here implement those laws incorrectly then the ECJ is the final arbiter.

There are UK representative judges that sit in the ECJ.

That would seem to support the vote leave assertion that THM rubbished. The final arbiter sits outside of the UK and our parliament/courts are subservient in a meaningful way (I note the relationship between the EU and ECJ and ECHR)? Am I missing something?

Definitely a huge negative in my personal assessment - maybe not enough to offset the benefit of trade. Not sure though.

EDIT: just seen your response - your problem is the word 'permanent' but not the substance?

Thanks for your edit from your legal friends, agree with and was aware of all that. I think we are talking about different things. That appears to relate to the legislation surrounding the operation of the single market, funding of bailouts etc. I think vote leave, and myself, are referring to the ability of the ECJ to overturn judicial decisions made by the UK courts on other matters.

Either way - the text you copied is of course one of the strongest reasons to remain.

I am off to play some golf - here's a link from my friends (ok only some of them)

Enjoy

Economists’ rare unity highlights peril of Brexit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e66852f0-3249-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html#axzz4BRwDlLwT

kimbers - Member
Economists’ rare unity highlights peril of Brexit

Ya, they never predicted all the major world economy/financial crash didn't they?

The economists ...

Always know what to say after the event ...

Always know how to evaluate the past ...

[b]Never get the future right.[/b]

[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/ ]The Spectator backs Brexit[/url]

TMH the UK parliament is only sovereign in that it can withdraw from the EU, for the time being anyway, who knows if someone signs that away. All of Camerons achievements in his renoegotiation are worth nothing as they are not binding bailouts included, thats even in the case they call it a bailout. How about its called a European Stability Fund or a Solidarity Pact ?

Erasmus anyone can join, as I understand it Switzerland have been suspended as they won't pay in whats been asked. My daughter had a choice between Australia and Denmark, she thought Australia was too far and didn't enjoy her gap year time there that much.

70 pages long that lawyers piece, starts with the important note that the EU needs reform, you we all agree about that. The reality is it's on a path to reform directly opposed to the sort of change we and I suspect the lawyers think is necessary. They also roll out the usual EU achievements like cheap travel, environment and trade. All of which will exist outside the EU of course. They laughably suggest we have more product choice as a result of the EU but the truth is we have less, the whole raison d'etre of the EU is to create a single market which gives oreference to its members products, this reduces choice,

I missed this from Dan Hannah a month ago, barnstorming and so different from anything the "EU needs reforming but we must Remain" camp

Some people predict market crashes, Chewkw. They aren't always listened to but if you look at the early phases of a crash you'll often find someone who made the right predictions, put his money where his mouth was and that was the start of the crash. I sold my whole share portfolio in Spring 2000.

Edukator Switzerland is a big exporter with a positive balance of payments so not surprising it has to PAY for free trade access. As we are a big net importer the EU should pay us for the right to sell goods to us duty free, that's my negotiating position.

50% of our trade with them 5% of theirs with us

If you started with that they will laugh loudly and then walk out

No one not even you can think we hold all the cards when we want access to their market. in fact its not want its NEED

That's so ludicrous no teven nigel has said that at 3 am on hiw way home from a lock in.

I would suggest some proper reading* Jambas as there are too many errors to bother with each one In your reply plus there will be no direct answers - * and I don't mean Hannah either, His list of BS makes Gove appear straight.

I appreciate that 70 pages is a lot when you guys just hide behind blatant lies in simple sound bites #spoutBS #xenophobiarules

Quality debate is not required in post truth politics, neither is reading/sticking to facts.Just short, blatant lies preferably in words of few syllables

I've worked abroad only in non-EU countries namely US and Singapore.

Yes, it's possible, but nowhere near as easy.

My brother is worked in the US, but it took 6 months for his employer to secure a visa.

Unfortunately, his girlfriend who has accompanied him can't find a job in the US, nor a visa, so has to leave every few months. Unfortunately, on her return they couldn't get hold of my brother to confirm her story, so they assumed she was an illegal immigrant, she was arrested, belongings confiscated and held in a cell overnight until they could confirm who she was. it was hugely unpleasant.

They've moved back after that experience.

50% of our trade with them

You've been picked up on this before

figures are skewed and unreliable due to Rotterdam effect (which ONS state is not limited to the Netherlands, and that further gateways locations exist)