[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I'm not talking about the grandiose stuff, such as freedom of speech etc, I'm talking about things like worker's rights e.g. limits to working hours, maternity and paternity leave, paid holiday etc.: Small things the government can slowly chip away at by themselves.

In which case, the public will vote them out and vote in a government that protects them.

Isn't that how a democracy works?

And my view is that the Remain campaign will lose due to them (in the main media that the average man in the street reads and views) concentrating on negatives of leaving, not positives of remaining.

Hopefully they wont but fair point - 'average man' (if we are allowed to use such a derogatory term 😉 ) is far more likely to be swayed by false promises - just remember Salmond and his fanciful Book of Dreams. The reasons to stay are blindingly obvious if somewhat dry when compared to the "you can have it all" approach.

Remain have to deal with the existing reality - warts and all - whereas VL can peddle lies and candy floss dreams of the new utopia of a new GREAT Britain free from control and nasty unwashed foreigners with British Jobs for British workers and funding for everyone. The latter is far easier especially when the undercurrent of xenophobia lies so close to the surface.

Depressing thought for the day: I don't want to have to tell my daughters that they won't be able to go and work in other countries like Daddy did. They'd be stuck at home, unless they emigrate.

In which case, the public will vote them out and vote in a government that protects them.

Isn't that how a democracy works?

Lolz.. it's how it's meant to work in theory, but surely ANYONE paying attention must see that's nothing like how it works in practice. What spaceship did you step off?

flanagaj - Member

Look on the bright side 'remainers' if 'vote leave' win next Thursday, at least we can wave goodbye to Gideon.

How he expects to keep his job if 'vote leave' win is absolutely comical. He has painted such a gloomy picture regarding the 'pending' economic storm post brexit that he has lost all credibility as chancellor.

The weird thing is, it's exactly what he's always done, and nobody seems to notice or care. "There is a long term economic plan" that changes every 5 minutes, he misses practically every target he sets and the bulk of his forecasts and predictions are proved wrong. His EU campaign contribution hasn't been out of character at all.

The latter is far easier especially when the undercurrent of xenophobia lies so close to the surface.

I don't even think it's fuelled by Xenophobia - it's not a hatred of 'foreigners', it's a genuine concern of where is everybody going to live?

Local to me a planning application has just gone in for 400 new houses - this is on Green Belt land, in a World Heritage Site, in a town that has been massively expanded over the last 2 decades and will eventually (if passed) lead to the main town getting close to absorbing two local villages. No new infrastucture planned, no new roads in a town already gridlocked, no new schools or doctors - nothing new at all, but more ruddy houses.

I don't even think it's fuelled by Xenophobia - it's not a hatred of 'foreigners', it's a genuine concern of where is everybody going to live?

Who are the brexiters going to blame next when brexit doesn't turn into the promised land?

I suspect that given the nightmare scenario that we leave, then Boris's coronation will usher in a premiership that will make Gordon Browns brief, unhappy tenure look like the most successful ever

Because right from day one people are going to be looking to him for answers to the questions he's highlighted. To end immigration. to deliver an extra £350 million a week to the NHS. To deliver a new economy and higher wages and living standards etc..... etc.... etc...

But as anyone with anything between their ears knows.... he doesn't have any answers. because the whole thing is built on a huge pile of lies.

And that is going to become apparent very very quickly

Then when he wears his solomn face and does his 'we are being forced to make difficult choices....' speech, as they slash funding to the NHS, abolish the minimum wage, and as Scotland votes to leave the UK, etc....etc... etc. then the chances are......

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The weird thing is, it's exactly what he's always done, and nobody seems to notice or care. "There is a long term economic plan" that changes every 5 minutes, he misses practically every target he sets and the bulk of his forecasts and predictions are proved wrong. His EU campaign contribution hasn't been out of character at all.

Sorry who's forecasts?

I don't even think it's fuelled by Xenophobia - it's not a hatred of 'foreigners', it's a genuine concern of where is everybody going to live?

Well address the underlying problem them. SFA to do with Europe.

When you take control and we still have 150,000 odd ****stanis and Indians (this seems to be the wish list) rather than E European, what specifically are you going to do? Use the £350m to build new houses!!!

Damn, that's it. I forgot.

Apparently, the Germans DO care:

The majority of Germans apparently agree; earlier this month a poll revealed 79% don't want Britain to leave the EU.

With regards housing, infrastructure etc - towns have been building suburbs since the first world war. That's hardly new. I live in a place that was fields some 20 years ago.

Depressing thought for the day: I don't want to have to tell my daughters that they won't be able to go and work in other countries like Daddy did. They'd be stuck at home, unless they emigrate.

How will that change? I’ve worked abroad too, and sometimes I’ve needed a visa, sometimes not. I’ve worked in the EU alongside non-EU people who seemed to get by OK without having to emigrate. I’m currently working in the UK and sit between a Kiwi and Canadian, they seem to manage OK without being EU nationals.

People keep having children, we have a lot more of them than we take in as immigrants.

Doesn't your calculation on net population sum only work if people stop dying?

Anyone else enjoying the clash of the Brexit/Remain flotillas on the Thames via Twitter this morning. Commentator tweets are making me chuckle in meetings.

Doesn't your calculation on net population sum only work if people stop dying?

How will that change? I’ve worked abroad too, and sometimes I’ve needed a visa, sometimes not.

You will be able to be temporarily posted within your company, but both times I've worked abroad (rather than been posted) I simply passed an interview on the same terms as any other applicant then packed a bag. Having looked into doing the same with non-EU countries or citizens it is FAR harder because of immigration laws.

The English voted for the Conservatives last GE, including (IIRC) their manifesto pledge to simplify Planning laws in favour of a presumption FOR development.

If your towns and villages are getting "built out" then it is down to the party that the people collectively voted for...

Having had a look at the FT poll of polls again it seems the football violence in Marseille resulted in a jump in anti-EU sentiment. The reaction of the British press prompted Madame to sell pounds to the value of 20 000e, and that having decided that the Brexit was too close to call and our £/E allocation was about right.

I think the whole thing is very sad. Of course there will be economic consequences if vote leave win. As to what those economic consequences will be no one can say for definite. What I can say though is that a positive mental attitude would make the world of difference.

If we all stand around saying 'we are sh!t and useless ...' then we'll talk ourselves into a recession. Just like Cameron and Gideon are doing now.

On the flip side, a "yes we can thrive outside the EU". New opportunities, new trade agreements mentality will help massively. Feel the fear and embrace the opportunities change brings!

I am usually a pretty pessimistic individual, but the remain camp have taken it to another level. If I wasn't positive about Britain thriving, I'd have got the noose out.

irelanst - Member

Depressing thought for the day: I don't want to have to tell my daughters that they won't be able to go and work in other countries like Daddy did. They'd be stuck at home, unless they emigrate.

How will that change? I’ve worked abroad too, and sometimes I’ve needed a visa, sometimes not. I’ve worked in the EU alongside non-EU people who seemed to get by OK without having to emigrate. I’m currently working in the UK and sit between a Kiwi and Canadian, they seem to manage OK without being EU nationals.

As far as the EU goes; apparently we want to leave the EU to Take Back Control of Immigration. If that doesn't mean slashing EU immigration, then it's all a load of smoke. But if we slash EU immigration while abandoning our current right to live and work in the EU, seems reasonable to assume there will be an impact.

If we all stand around saying 'we are sh!t and useless

It's got absoutely nothing to do with being useless.

I'm voting in because co-operation. And if we leave, how many big companies will then leave too?

Plus I listen to experts.

Having had a look at the FT poll of polls again it seems the football violence in Marseille resulted in a jump in anti-EU sentiment.

If we all stand around saying 'we are sh!t and useless ...' then we'll talk ourselves into a recession. Just like Cameron and Gideon are doing now.

We will spare you the embarrassment of providing a link. By now we know that the only ammo left is to make things up

And as for the debate ^^ about qualifications / education and voting...

Yes, one person = one vote

It is supremely arrogant (but an easy trap) to assume that the well educated / informed / more intelligent have a more valid opinion.

The counter argument to this however, is that the "political collective" (all parties) and the print media use their own education and intelligence to BS, mis-inform and whip up populous opinion amongst those who don't have the time or inclination to come to a more considered opinion.

The recent (previously linked) Independent poll shows the truth of this - people are simply mis-informed and making a life changing decision on bad information.

This [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/13/eu-cash-flows-to-cornwall-but-many-want-to-leave ]Guardian Article - Cornwall Brexit[/url] is deeply depressing to me as a Cornishman

Cornwall as a region has benefitted hugely from EU money, but this simply isn't recognised - cussedness (a Cornish characteristic that I happily call my own), lack of information, lack of interest...?

If voters (from Cornwall, England, Wales, whichever part of the UK) vote leave based on the real issues and facts - then fine, that is the democratic process and decision.

If the UK votes leave based on the garbage that has been peddled so far, then yes, still the democratic process - but such a far reaching decision, and based on such a flawed campaign

Nobody really knows. There might be some economic uncertainty with brexit, but the economic future within the EU is hardly risk free and certain - it's just a nice comforting and more famliar kind of uncertainty. These things have been massively overstated on both sides of the argument. One thing that has been proved is that being at arms length from the EU during a big recession and period of economic certainty was a huge advantage for us in dealing with that recession compared with the countries in the EU.

It is supremely arrogant (but an easy trap) to assume that the well educated / informed / more intelligent have a more valid opinion

Tell me how people who know less about something are as able to make a good decision as people who know more..? 😯

There might be some economic uncertainty with brexit

Some? There is an absolute shitload and it hasn't even happened yet!

Nobody really knows. There might be some economic uncertainty with brexit

Here is the CEO of Rolls royce - £1 in every £50 of our exports is the, FWIW

We're making investment decisions all the time about where to place different parts of our operation,” he said.

“Uncertainty created by Brexit puts a lot of those decisions on hold and that pause is something that our US competitors don't have to cope with.”

To claim the two are equally unknown is like claiming that staying married and getting divorced are equal levels of uncertainty.

Tell me how people who know less about something are as able to make a good decision as people who know more..?

Oh, I totally agree... Just doesn't transfer well to the democratic process 😉

Exactly. The clever politicians manipulate the people who have to spend their time doing other things like work. This has always been the problem, and really it stops the system working properly.

Democracy only works properly with education, and for some reason we receive no political education in this country at all.

One thing that has been proved is that being at arms length from the EU during a big recession and period of economic certainty was a huge advantage for us in dealing with that recession compared with the countries in the EU.

This might be correct is the point was about not being part of the Eurozone rather than the EU. As always, being part of the latter has been good for consumption, investment, trade and hence government spending and has helped us deal with the recession. Just look at where we traded most in 2014 and 2015.

If the UK votes leave based on the garbage that has been peddled so far, then yes, still the democratic process - but such a far reaching decision, and based on such a flawed campaign

Isn't this true of all campaigns?

Its just that this time, [b]it IS important[/b]. Making trade harder and reducing investment incentives is bad for the long term health (that's for you Jambas) of our economy. We cant change our minds in 5 years time on this issue.

Here is the CEO of Rolls royce - £1 in every £50 of our exports is the, FWIW

So you cannot defeat the message so you will shoot the shit out of the messenger with ad hom after ad hom

That's your right in a democracy.

Out of interest what do you see when you look at Boris, Farage, IDS and Gove?

flanagaj - Member
...These are the exact individuals I have no interest in listening too.... etc.

that may or may not be fair, but R-R is more or less THE keystone of high-value British manufacturing.

(employing many thousands of skilled engineers, and supporting tens of thousands more in the supply chain)

Out of interest what do you see when you look at Boris, Farage, IDS and Gove

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Amusing but shoting the messenger can work both ways

TBH I just wish brexiters would say yes we will be worse off but I am voting out because and then list the reasons

It would also be better if GO and Dave would turn the fear hyperbole down from 11 to abut 3.

This debate standard is poor and little more than insults and trolling.

They are the exact same greedy multi national corporations that would sell the family silver given half the chance

You wot?

Rolls Royce is a pillar of the honest decent British manufacturing industry (if we are playing the spin game).

They want to sell engines to make money, of course they do - that's the point of manufacturing. You do realise that a lot of normal people work for them, right?

Honestly fail to see how you can possibly dismiss comments like this. It beggars belief. You are your own spin doctor.

So its Farige vs Geldoff on the Thames at the moment

"Here are the facts about fishing," he yelled. "One, Britain makes more money than any other country in Europe from fishing. Two, Britain has the second largest quota for fish in Europe after Denmark. Three, Britain has the third largest landings. Four, you are no fisherman's friend. You were on the European Parliament Fishing Committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings.

Anyone fancy going down to one of the bridges and dropping some livestock on shameless bullshitter farige?

Talking of spin, today's labour market stats don't fit to well with the idea that Johnny F is taking our jobs and depressing our wages - in fact you might think that VL were making things up.

Talking of making things up - its still here in all its glory on the #BStakecontrol website

A vote to ‘remain’ means:

Lets see if there is anything true from VL today....

Permanent handing over of £350 million a week to Brussels

Oops

Permanent overruling of UK law by EU law and the EU Court

Oops

Permanent EU control of our trade and economy

Oops

Permanent EU control of security and migration

Oops

Its impressive to be 100% wrong and consistently so. Bravo for the BSers!

flanagaj - Member

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You wot?

Rolls Royce is a pillar of the honest decent British manufacturing industry (if we are playing the spin game).

They want to sell engines to make money, of course they do - that's the point of manufacturing. You do realise that a lot of normal people work for them, right?

I have no interest in anyone, be it business or individual who wants to remain solely on the basis they benefit financially from the EU partnership. That to me stinks of the 'me, me, me selfish attitude'.

How do you really think that we pay for the NHS, education, welfare etc?

The back of a bright red BS bus?

Honestly fail to see how you can possibly dismiss comments like this. It beggars belief. You are your own spin doctor.

So are the comments of the Head Man at JCB to be dismissed as well then (he wants to Leave), or is his opinion of lesser value than a Rolls Royce man?

I have no interest in anyone, be it business or individual who wants to remain solely on the basis they benefit financially from the EU partnership. That to me stinks of the 'me, me, me selfish attitude'.

Echoes of Pol Pot or ISIS??? Take the country back to an impoverished shell

Strong nihilistic / anarchist streak being exploited?

How do you really think that we pay for the NHS, education, welfare etc?

I look on the other side of the coin and see new business and trade opportunities that will come about. A refreshing change.

I thought that rather than add any more words to the debate, that I'd express my opinion through the medium of modern, contemporary dance.

Then I remembered that I'm a bald fat bloke who can't dance, but I am an illustrator, so I did this instead....

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