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I am still livid with the Brexies – a bunch of wreckers who see the cost of everything and the value of nothing and are hell bent on wrecking the way of life this country has enjoyed for nothing other than ideological reasons.
We’d be well shot of those folk.
Ah, so essentially just what we always thought then, a tantrum because you’re not getting your own way for once. The joys of living in a democracy eh?
Ah, so essentially just what we always thought then, a tantrum because you’re not getting your own way for once. The joys of living in a democracy eh?
No, just anger that so many people have done something stupid.
How would you feel if the vote had been remain? Happy? Or cross?
Ah, so essentially just what we always thought then, a tantrum because you’re not getting your own way for once. The joys of living in a democracy eh?
I'm sure if the vote went the other way, you'd be perfectly accepting of it
I would have thought it was the wrong decision and said so, but ultimately taken the loss like a man and moved on, hoping that future significant changes, likely years away, led to change
what I wouldn’t have done is spent the next two years whining like a pussy for a do-over
But would you have been angry?
I think igm is behaving like a man. He's not having a 'tantrum' as you so shittily put it, he's calmly expressing his opinions and how he's feeling. I can't see a problem with that. He's hardly ranting and abusing is he?
It's not a game of football. I think the country is harming itself for the wrong reasons, and people didn't act with intelligence and rationality. I think it's being governed with dreadful incompetence. Why shouldn't I be angry? It's my democratic obligation to voice my opinion.
I think you under-estimate how much this means to some of us.
ninfan - no tantrum, no whining. I just know a bunch of idiots wrecking the country when I see one.
It's not only Brexit ,it's what these clowns are tagging onto it.
Snooping, fracking, loss of rights...."You voted for it"
I think igm is behaving like a man.
Sure. A whiney, tantrum throwing one.
I'll leave you to decide if I would have put a winky at the end. Progress is a funny thing.
PS for the record, given you clearly haven’t been listening (what a surprise) I don’t want a “do-over” as I have said several times.
A second (third?) referendum would damage the country even more.
I think our politicians need to grow up, do what is right for the country, and either get a deal that works for most (not just 52%) or junk Brexit.
Maslow’s hierarchy applies. Self expression like “sovereignty” comes long after food and shelter and security.
whining like a pussy for a do-over
ninfan, classy as ever!
5th - always good to see a high quality argument. Haven’t seen one from you yet of course.
You can add a winky if you want.
Are we all looking forward to Boris's big speech then?
The man who slapped the £350 million for the NHS bollocks down the side of a bus is going to ask us all, retainers and leavers, to unite behind his grand vision of Brexit
This should be pure comedy gold! 😀
I think it’s being governed with dreadful incompetence. Why shouldn’t I be angry? It’s my democratic obligation to voice my opinion.
Criticism of the governance, negotiation stance, style, leadership, goals etc. is all entirely valid discussion. I made the point earlier that we could have spent the last year and a half having that discussion.
my ire is pointed entirely at those who have sought to overturn, ignore, filibuster or deny the democratically expressed will of the people to leave the EU - discussions about what leaving the EU consists of and the advantages or disadvantages of the various post Brexit trading and social agreements have been utterly ignored and lost in the noise due to the committed and repeated attempts to overturn the referendum outcome by those who lost
5th – always good to see a high quality argument. Haven’t seen one from you yet of course.
Arguments stopped with the referendum. All that's left is the anti-democratic exposing themselves to ridicule.
my ire is pointed entirely at those who have sought to overturn, ignore, filibuster or deny the democratically expressed will of the people to leave the EU
If only the government could provide us with some kind of idea what they are aiming for, perhaps allow reports to be public and debate to occur. In the absence of a reasonable plan we are suggesting that people go away and form one then come back and present it. Until then stop the madness.
Arguments stopped with the referendum. All that’s left is the anti-democratic exposing themselves to ridicule.
Yep, only a view held by those doing the brexit whatever the cost argument isn't it.
you forgot morons as a moron with no grasp of what democracy means could also think that
you forgot morons as a moron with no grasp of what democracy means could also think that
Exactly what a would-be totalitarian would say.
The lack of emoticons is actually making this more entertaining.
only a view held by those doing the brexit whatever the cost argument isn’t it.
i don’t remember the “leave as long as it doesn’t cost us too much” box on the referendum form. Perhaps I missed it? Maybe it was somewhere between the “stay, as long as TTIP isn’t signed” and “stay, as long as we are promised a referendum before any further steps towards federalisation” boxes?
Yes a totalitarian would definitely be pointing out that one of democracies key points is open and public debate and open dissent. They would definitely be doing it to someone who says the debate has ended and there can be no dissent or change of opinion - that certainly helped refute the moron charge there. I am not even sure you are bright enough to realise what a self pwning that statement was.
Oh and being wrong twice certainly helped refute the moron claim 🙄
😆
😉
😀
😳
etc
Bless
5th - you need to read your posts back to yourself. You are at least giving me someone to laugh at though so keep it up.
I’m not very good at being bullied, and ninfan and you will need to raise your game significantly if you’re going to manage in you attempts.
Best of luck.
i don’t remember the “leave as long as it doesn’t cost us too much” box on the referendum form. Perhaps I missed it?
Nail and head, you all voted for something that none of you can define other than leave, to put that in context it's like leaving the living room, somebody is happy in the kitchen, others meant outside, somebody is in the crapper and the rest went upstairs. Come back when you have all agreed what leave actually means and what practical steps need to be taken to achieve this. Trigger article 50 is procedural not an achievement,
my ire is pointed entirely at those who have sought to overturn, ignore, filibuster or deny the democratically expressed will of the people to leave the EU
Right - but that's not what we're doing here.
However - a second referendum would still be the democratically expressed will of the people woudl it not? When all the information has come to light?
The referendum was asking us (IIRC) if we thought we'd be better off outside. We shoudl not have triggered A50 then - we should have made a plan, created and evaluated options and voted on those. All done democratically.
This is a complete and total ballsup from every possible angle, including the democratic one.
Arguments stopped with the referendum.
What? We're not allowed to discuss our future any more? Why not?
The referendum was asking us (IIRC) if we thought we’d be better off outside. We shoudl not have triggered A50 then – we should have made a plan, created and evaluated options and voted on those. All done democratically.
the government who held the referendum was elected on the basis of a pledge to hold a referendum and to honour and enact the result
the government that replaced that government was elected on the basis of a pledge to enact the result of the referendum that had already taken place
How much more democracy do you want?
The strongest argument you could possibly make on a Democratic basis was that theee was room for a future government to be elected on the basis of a pledge to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU after the leave process has been completed
And founding a department under Davies with a brief to investigate and present a plan to the UK people and EU team would still be 100% within the spirit of what was said and promised. The UK could then have started the whole process from a knowledgeable standpoint rather than lurching from one discovery to the next - like your comparison with house buyers - it's exactly what the UK has done, played all it's cards on day 1.
So, have the STW Brexit cheerleaders found a consensus yet?
I want something to "get behind"… until that something has been formed, articulated and agreed on… then I'll keep suggesting that we should keep our special one-off form of EU membership. I can't get behind multiple contradictory proposals… set out what you want…
Jamba is the only one with the balls to set out his preferred option, and to say what kind of deal he absolutely could not back… but is happy with a wide range of options otherwise. What about the rest of you? Engage with him… start moving towards something you can all back… and then ask us to support you.
They need look no further than the clarity offered by Boris' speech today.
We have a new Valentine's Day massacre.
has he been unfaithful to yet another lover?
So, have the STW Brexit cheerleaders found a consensus yet?
Yes, we all want to leave the EU.
but if you really want something to get behind, how about this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=3s&v=UGFClyukkuY
And beyond that soundbite you have nothing. Nearly 2 years and still no actual plan or credible vision.
Brexit means Brexit.
Some very funny quotes in that Thatcher vid. I'm sure you think it gives valuable historical context… but what it does not do is spell out what happens next…
Relax folks. We've all now got something to rally behind.....
Brexit will provide 'Government for the people, by the people'
Everything clear now?
Good. Now... all wave your little flags....
the government who held the referendum was elected on the basis of a pledge to hold a referendum and to honour and enact the result
the government that replaced that government was elected on the basis of a pledge to enact the result of the referendum that had already taken place
How much more democracy do you want?
What I want is competent governance. So in 'enacting the result' I don't want to see the plug pulled with no real plan, and no ability to create one, plunging the country into chaos whist a small group of people try and fail to decide what *they* want.
If they were 'enacting the result' with open debate and a bit of common bloody sense I'd have far less to complain about. The incompetence is far worse than the result of the referendum.
Yeah, Im not sure who thought that Borris speech would somehow reunite a bitterly divided nation but they need to go away and think a bit harder next time.
To be fair in the Q & A after even Johnson knew that was a load of guff, he just kind of gave up trying to pretend.
what I wouldn’t have done is spent the next two years whining like a pussy for a do-over
Brexit COULD prompt a proper reorganisation of UK politics that could be brilliant. But I've got absolutely no idea if it'll happen. I've got no idea what's going to happen at all. But apparently THM does. So either:
a) It's all being worked out in secret - bad
b) It's not being worked out at all and there's no plan - bad
Ninfan why are you trying so hard to be such an unpleasant person?
In health and social care there's a piece of legislation called the mental capacity act.
I am reminded of it every time I open this thread
why are you trying so hard to be such an unpleasant person
He doesn't have to try hard. He's a hardcore right winger. They're far from pleasant.
As for the government Id like some evidence based policy.
The white papers we've had so far have been severely lacking in either evidence or policy (science whitepaper was contradictory, confused & threw up more questions than answers)
Its only been 20months since the ref (+ 40 years of whining) you'd think the brexies would have a semblance of a plan by now!
Ninfan why are you trying so hard to be such an unpleasant person?
Duh, I can’t help it can I? After all, us brexies are all stupid, bitter, angry, hate filled people. We know it must be true because the remainers have spent the past two years telling us so.
why are you all feeding him ?
He will say anything with only two objectives
1)response-any
2)someone gets upset with what he says
he does not mean a word of what he says so why feed and engage with him?
it fills in the time waiting for Jamby and THM to hand in their homework
"5thElefant
Arguments stopped with the referendum."
Look around you. See? Now try living in the real world.
Here's the thing about democracy. Yes, the majority of people who voted, voted for brexit. But nobody voted for a particular brexit- there was no option to do so as Ninfan agrees. Brexiteers say this as if it's a licence for any and all brexits, but actually it's exactly the opposite- it's the reason that the vote for brexit, can't be considered a vote for any one particular brexit.
Will all hard brexiteers be happy with the softest possible brexit? Clearly not, they will have been BETRAYED. Will all soft brexiteers be happy with WTO? Of course not, remaining in the EU is closer to what they want than that. Will all brexiteers be happy with a no-deal brexit? A brexit that maintains freedom of movement? Involvement with the ECJ? A "brexit in name only"?
It's patently untrue that a vote to leave is an endorsement of all subsequent decisions, especially those that go counter to promises made before the referendum, brexiteers themselves make this argument all the time when someone proposes a brexit they don't like. Ironically Jamba of all people explained this very nicely about 500 pages ago. Offer Jacob Rees-Mogg a brexit-in-name-only and see what he thinks about democracy.
I can see why this gets depicted as remainers trying to overthrow democracy- it's an easy brute force card to play. I doubt I'd play it myself but I can see the effectiveness, certainly. But if we had a vote on whether to stay in tonight or to go out, you wouldn't consider that a vote to go out commits everyone to go to the opera, or to go downtown and get tattoos, or whatever else the person at the front decides to do.
And I think it should go without saying that this works both ways- if we voted to remain, and then the EU collapsed (it's going to happen any day now, we're told) or rapidly changed direction and went somewhere we hate, it'd be mad to dismiss all discussion of leaving with No! We voted to stay in tonight and watch TV, and we're damn well going to do so, even if the house burns down! DEMOXY!
it’s the reason that the vote for brexit, can’t be considered a vote for any one particular brexit.
But it was still a vote for Brexit - and the concentrated effort by the remainers has been to ignore and/or attempt to overturn this by rabidly arguing against Brexit and denigrating those in favour of it rather than constructively and actively promoting a form of Brexit that retained the freedoms they feared losing (AKA potential compromise)