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Several reasons. They are scared of Tory governments, they lack faith in their own convictions, they feel an obligation to take a diametrically opposed position to right-wingers who base their decisions on petty racism - even if it's the wrong position, and because despite their claims they are not left-wing in any meaningful way - for them left-wing means "we hate the Tories".
Steelfreak - MemberWhy do so many 'left leaning' folk support Britain's continued membership of an organisation which aims to neutralise democracy and preserve and propagate neoliberalism at the expense of ordinary citizens (just ask the Greeks)?
Because of the limited choice offered. I'm no fan of the EU; I'm pro-european but the current EU is IMO terrible, and may well never get better. I'd tear it down if I could and replace it with a better one. But that's not an option, we don't get to vote c) Be in Northwind's Fantasy EU. We either vote be in this EU, or don't. This to me is a shit choice but of the two, I'll choose the EU.
We live in feudal capitalism; we can't just pretend everything is fine. Lots of things aren't fine, lots of them we can't do anything about, some we can but don't. Britain outside of the EU doesn't escape feudal capitalism; we just put ourselves IMO in a much worse position in the same shit game.
You don't have to love the EU to choose it. People try to depict the left as utopians but this is a practical matter. If I believed that by leaving we could tear down the current EU and have something better grow in its place, I'd go for that too. But right now? I think that's pretty much the least likely of all options.
Steelfreak - Member
Why do so many 'left leaning' folk support Britain's continued membership of an organisation which aims to neutralise democracy and preserve and propagate neoliberalism at the expense of ordinary citizens (just ask the Greeks)?
It's a choice between a slimy shit and a runny shit.
Since we are all trying to predict the future here, pretty much no opinion is invalid, it really is just a matter of perception. There are no certainties on either side.
Last night at a local meeting I heard Eddie Dempsey, who is an Executive Committee member of the RMT, speak in favour of leaving the EU. He's like a Bob Crow mark 2 btw.
He pointed out that whenever he listened to people "on the left" talk in favour of remaining they always started off with a big long spiel about how terrible the EU is.
Oh how true that is I thought. In fact Mark Serwotka, General Secretary of the PCS Union who was there to speak in favour of the EU, spent a considerable amount of time criticizing the EU. I can't recall him saying anything positive about it, just how awful it would be to leave.
Plenty of criticism to go around all sides. Essentially you just have to go with your gut. And be wary of anyone promising you anything.
Amused that the remainders are getting all upset and calling people 'little Englanders' over football fans singing "ten German bombers"
They seem to have forgotten about all the 'little England' Czech, Polish, French, US, Canadian, Irish, Kiwi, Afrikaans, Belgian and West Indian RAF pilots who shot them down 😀
For me, it's about having the opportunity to change things for the better as a nation. Remaining in the EU binds us to a monolithic and largely unaccountable organisation which seems to increasingly resist any change that might impede the neoliberal march. For example, current EU rules would appear to make it harder for a future (more progressive) UK government to enact certain policies, such as returning the railways to public ownership.
It seems a shame that the debate has been reduced to either 'leave = financial meltdown' or 'stay = immigrant flood'. All other (perhaps more nuanced) arguments are being drowned out.
jambalaya - Member
They are arguing about the £350 as they are trying to divert attention from uncontrolled immigration which on its own is a Referendum losing issue for Remain.
The UK imports more non eu migrants through its controlled migration than eu. So does that mean we actually need immigration?
Remaining in the EU binds us to a monolithic and largely unaccountable organisation which seems to increasingly resist any change that might impede the neoliberal march
Do you think that has anything to do with the UK having a frome the sidelines approach or a them and us approach to Europe?
- MemberAmused that the remainders are getting all upset and calling people 'little Englanders' over football fans singing "ten German bombers"
They seem to have forgotten about all the 'little England' Czech, Polish, French, US, Canadian, Irish, Kiwi, Afrikaans, Belgian and West Indian RAF pilots who shot them down
So singing songs deemed by your own FA and police to be racially offensive is OK? I am sure the England supporters are well aware of the irony of the song as they sing it,and are doing it to be clever. Zulu11; why did he change his username again?
Which bit of the 201 pages is the ropey bit OX?
The bit where they give a precise figure for GDP in 2030. I wouldn't put much faith in a projection even 5 years into the future, given the same group of experts seemingly have to revise their 12 month predictions every 3 months.
And in any case, your view on HM Treasury analysis doesn't interest me in the slightest; I'm not arguing against their report. I'm arguing against the willful twisting of the figures contained within to arrive at a wholly untenable claim about household income.
deemed by your own FA and police to be racially offensive
All together now:
feudal capitalism
Oxymoron of the entire thread. Well done! 😆
Carry on.
[i]OK, seeing how £350 million/week is causing such gnashing of teeth, how about Remain's claim that leaving would cost every household £4300 a year, which the Treasury says is a woeful misrepresentation of their report, which is itself a fanciful work of extrapolation?
There are 26.7 million households in the UK. 26.7 million x £4300 = £114.81 billion taken away from household budgets apparently. Compare that to Leave's misrepresentation of the £18 billion figure in the ONS report, choosing that over the net contribution. Whose is the bigger whopper? [/i]
So a better analogy would be to compare the cost to your own household.
So at £1 a day to Remain and £10 a day to Leave it isn't financial actually going to impact us enough to make a difference either way if we considered that on principle we wanted to do one thing or another.
I'm sure many others will be the same, but for the majority (looking at UK household income, and my 3 working children and their families) that loss of £3500 pa will be a killer, unless their costs somehow miraculously come down by the same.
How about others, if we leave can you afford a drop of £3500 pa in household income?
I personally coped with a £28k drop in household income last year, but all that illustrates is that using household income as a measure of how serious changes in GDP are is useless. Everyone's different and blanket assumptions are, at best, misleading.
Where are your £1/day, £10/day figures from?
For me, it's about having the opportunity to change things for the better as a nation.
We have plenty of opportunity to change things for the better right now. Did we take it? Why do you imagine that Brexit will be accompanied by a sudden rise in publc awareness and engagement in the community? It will be the same old Etonians running the show and the same old proles on their sofas watching X Factor and drinking lager.
Amused that the remainders are getting all upset and calling people 'little Englanders' over football fans singing "ten German bombers"
Really? Being embarrassed by the stupidity of our countrymen is a purely "Remainder" characteristic?
[I]Where are your £1/day, £10/day figures from? [/I]
Just approximations based on the £18bn vs £114bn and the BBC reckoning the actual cost of membership is about £280+/- per household per annum.
So all damp finger stuff - the actual numbers don't really matter, more the factor.
Vote Leave or Vote OUT for happiness
Chewy - once we find that kicking out the Poles doesn't lead to nirvana, who do you think will be next? Careful what you wish for!!
I work for an extremely large, multinational manufacturing company. They are the biggest employer in the region with tens of thousand direct and indirect jobs dependant. If they weren't here I dread to think what would become of the area I live.
The official company line is "vote how you want but..."
We compete with other European plants for new business every couple of years, it basically boils down to cost per unit and it's very competitive. 80% of our product is exported to Europe.
A vote to leave just introduces risk and uncertainty. Nobody knows what kind of trade deals or import/export tariffs will be negotiated. A percentage of that "cost per unit" will be unknown and European based competitors already running with spare capacity and desperate for new product will have an advantage they didn't have before.
For me personally, any supposed positives of a brexit are irrelevant compared to this. I'm sure multi-millionaire Boris Johnson will be just fine if his Brexit gamble fails.
I find it quite telling that those in my office close to retirement are mostly all for Brexit while those of us with a good chunk of working life still ahead of us are remainers.
Just approximations based on the £18bn vs £114bn and the BBC reckoning the actual cost of membership is about £280+/- per household per annum.
But my point was that the £114bn is hogwash. Using GDP to predict household income requires a massive oversimplification of how the two are related to the point that the link between the two becomes all but meaningless. Leave's spurious £350mn/week isn't funded directly from household income, and the difference between a 27% increase and a 35% increase in GDP doesn't equate to a £4300/year decrease in household income. None of the figures have anything other the most tenuous relation to household income. So it's not really a better analogy at all.
I find it quite telling that those in my office close to retirement are mostly all for Brexit while those of us with a good chunk of working life still ahead of us are remainers.
I work for a multi-national engineering consultancy. The UK board have a similar line, in that whilst they won't express an opinion on how staff should vote, they've made it pretty clear that brexit will have a massive effect on our business, seeing as most of our big projects are dependent on large amounts of investment and capital expenditure from both inside and outside Europe, and that the uncertainty around brexit will reduce that investment significantly.
Similarly, most of the out crowd at my work are the older generation. One lad I know has said openly that he has 20 years of redundancy payments built up so he's voting out to make that more likely 😯
Similarly, most of the out crowd at my work are the older generation. One lad I know has said openly that he has 20 years of redundancy payments built up so he's voting out to make that more likely
Bit like someone fronting a campaign just because he sees it as advantageous for his own career.
k and uncertainty. Nobody knows what kind of trade deals or import/export tariffs will be negotiated. A percentage of that "cost per unit" will be unknown and European based competitors already running with spare capacity and desperate for new product will have an advantage they didn't have before.
But think of all the "control" you'll have. Isn't that worth it? You may not have a job but you'll be empowered to eat bendy bananas.
And soon it will be your week for the 350million lottery payment
Farage's face last night when Neil pointed out that the WTO tariff would wipe out any saving from BREXIT was priceless. It was even better when he said that 'we could use the money we save from our EU membership' and Neil cut him off 'that's already been taken in trade tariffs...'
Remain should be using the comments about manufacturing in every debate about the economy too.
Lifer - MemberFarage's face last night when Neil pointed out that the WTO tariff would wipe out any saving from BREXIT was priceless. It was even better when he said that 'we could use the money we save from our EU membership' and Neil cut him off 'that's already been taken in trade tariffs...'
Remain should be using the comments about manufacturing in every debate about the economy too.
All these assumptions are about BritLand's inability to react to forces beyond is incomprehensible not to say that they have underestimate the intellectual ability of business ... let's say that when money is impacted everyone will adjust their system accordingly, let alone a system that is flexible when out of EU.
What an absolutely naive view on talking down BritLand ...
What a naive view on BritLand inability to compete ...
What a naive view on understanding the flexibility of smaller entity.
What absolute rubbish ...
As for that bloke that pretend to be a woman is he trying to outdo Russel Brand? Ya, go get a real job.
@Lifer trade tariffs (in the event of no EU free trade deal) would be massively in our favour and would encourage us to by British, all good. FX rates move more than the 5% trade tarfiff so imo they'd be lost in the wash.
Swedish finance minister point out that in the event of a Brexit there would be widespread demand from other EU nations for their own referendums on membership.
No one here legally today is going to be "kicked out" in the event of Brexit, ditto Brits living in Europe. That status is protected by law. If Poles for example are the best people for whatever jobs need filling then Poles it will be, or Indians, or Chinese or Africans or Larin Americans or from the Middle East. As per other countries with controlled immigration the hiring company will have to demonstrate there is not a a person resident in the UK who could fill the job (as per the US and Australian systems)
they'd be lost in the wash.
translation: passed on to the average punter.
He pointed out that whenever he listened to people "on the left" talk in favour of remaining they always started off with a big long spiel about how terrible the EU is.
Exactly
@mike yup right now the UK needs immigrantion as does US, Australia and Canada. The UK needs controlled immigration to pick the best people and to prevent downward pressure on wages. The Aistralians are even more specific, relatively easy to get a visa for a job in Perth/WA, difficult / impossible for Sydney.
@seaso if our currency rallies as per the Swiss franc we'd all be at a big advantage in terms of consumers. Exporters lose out of course. Anyway that says they know where the currency would be in 12, 24 or 36 months is bluffing.
I do laugh at the rationale of "the uk needs immigration", this particular argument is just basically in support of the ponzy scheme that is pensions. It's really just saying we need immigration to pay for our pensions! 😆 what happens to yer grand children etc all?
Btw I'm 100% for open border, i just think that particular rationale is suspect, and extremely selfish.
If...more mystic meg-ism.
Listen folks, ignore the economic arguments, they are a pile of shit. You either want to be part of europe or you don't.
And in any case, your view on HM Treasury analysis doesn't interest me in the slightest**;
Your choice, but you could save yourself some embarrassment by not then saying things like
I'm not arguing against their report. I'm arguing against the willful twisting of the figures contained within to arrive at a wholly untenable claim about household income.
and
But my point was that the £114bn is hogwash. Using GDP to predict household income requires a massive oversimplification of how the two are related to the point that the link between the two becomes all but meaningless.
Which shows that (1) you either haven't read what they wrote or (2) you have, but didn't understand it.
You are arguing against a point that hasn't been made by HMT. I will give you something though. It is true that GO has used some loose language in presenting the results - that is fair and very poor from him. Bloody historians dealing with economics 😉
And as for...
Leave's spurious £350mn/week isn't funded directly from household income, and the difference between a 27% increase and a 35% increase in GDP doesn't equate to a £4300/year decrease in household income. None of the figures have anything other the most tenuous relation to household income. So it's not really a better analogy at all.
😯 sorry makes no sense at all.
Always here to help but given ** may I respectfully suggest that you read what the HM Treasury actually did/said. Unless this is some kind of solidarity show with Michael Give and Bojo who seem only too happy to say things that make them look stupid.
Your choice....
Btw I'm 100% for open border, i just think that particular rationale is suspect, and extremely selfish.
It's not, and you've identified why. Otherwise we'll need to incentivise breeding.
No one here legally today is going to be "kicked out" in the event of Brexit, ditto Brits living in Europe. [b]That status is protected by law.[/b]
As is the fact that we are not on the hook to bailout EZ members. Why do people persist with telling porkies?
@mike yup right now the UK needs immigrantion as does US, Australia and Canada. The UK needs controlled immigration to pick the best people and to prevent downward pressure on wages. The Aistralians are even more specific, relatively easy to get a visa for a job in Perth/WA, difficult / impossible for Sydney.
At the moment, the half and a bit that we control directly contributes less than the half we dont. Solution, increase the former. You do make this up!!
Still Nige even got roasted on the amount of non-EU guys he wants too. Like yS you would think after all this time, they would have tough the basic through
Shameful...
Listen folks, ignore the economic arguments, they are a pile of shit. You either want to be part of europe or you don't.
Not at all. We are definitively not part of the push to greater Europe. So this is the wrong question. We are voting on what is the better position to be in to stimulate trade and investment in the UK while minimising the obligations of membership.
Totally different things.
Currently, but Camerons European concessions aren't set in stone for ever.
Nothing ever us. You boys might even get independence one day!!
aye, but no-one wants to join the euro these days, imagine a scenario when the eurozone starts doing well and britain is doing worse, all you financial whizzes will all be calling for the euro...nothing surer.
aye, but no-one wants to join the euro these days,
Good job that this is not part of the debate then?
We are all clear on that.
imagine a scenario when the eurozone starts doing well and britain is doing worse, all you financial whizzes will all be calling for the euro...nothing surer.
Dont know about anyone else, but you can rule me out. The euro is flawed in concept and execution.
jambalaya - MemberNo one here legally today is going to be "kicked out" in the event of Brexit, ditto Brits living in Europe. That status is protected by law.
Which law would that be?
<start the clock>
Shhh, THM
We can still be part of the Euro after independence if we want to be, Its [b]our[/b] Euro remember 😉
If they don't give us our Euro we wont pay their debt
Isn't that how it goes? 😉
jambalaya - Member
@Lifer trade tariffs (in the event of no EU free trade deal*) would be massively in our favour and would encourage us to by British, all good. FX rates move more than the 5% trade tarfiff so imo they'd be lost in the wash.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best. But leavers are planning for the best and ignoring the worst.
Not worth gambling when you can't afford to lose.
But if the eurozone moves in the direction of a state, then it has the necessary levers and all of a sudden becomes viable and makes much more sense.teamhurtmore - MemberDont know about anyone else, but you can rule me out. The euro is flawed in concept and execution.
It's not like the euro has been around forever, 17 year since it was physically introduced, which is pretty much the infant stage of the euro, some hiccups were/are inevitable. It's clearly a work in progress, and won't be allowed to fail, imo.