[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Jambers. I made it very clear I did not see the Sturgeon/Johnson debate, but it appeared that Nicola got one over Boris.I did see the start of QT and hoped Izzard would get one over Farage. When he didn't I switched over. (Not that I agree with Farage, but rather Izzard could have been far more effectual).
I ended up watching an interview with Andy Birnam which was far more insightful. He could make a change to the Labour Party in Scotland if he chose that route.

jambalaya - Member

I salute those of you who gave up your time to watch a debate. I question your sanity but that's your choice

Perhaps the choice was having a debate with you ?

Which in that context doesn't sound too insane to me.

The one thing that is 100% certain is something will happen. The difficult bit is exactly what 😉

And with that last comment on QT: "...we are being diluted..."

Nice. 😐

DD. this whole debate has shown how xenophobia (especially) and racism (occasionally) continue to bubble away just below the surface of society. And Brexit have known how to tap into it directly.

+1 horrible comment to hear.

It was quite funny to see how Farage was enjoying her having a go at Izzard and then briefly seeing the Brexiteers' reaction to the "we are being diluted" line. They're happy to tap into it but don't like it when what they're scratching at shows what's underneath.

Debate. Guardian coverage suggests it was a win for Leave with Remain making personal attacks (desperate?) and being weak on macro issues something which is supoosed fo be their strongest ground. Also Leave participants much more united

Sturgeon is very unpolular in England with those likley to vote Leave and with the middle ground (see her impact on the GE) so whilst I am sure she ismokaying to her Scottish audience I doubt overall she is helping the Referendum cause.

So its a bit of a non issue then

If we vote to leave? Nothing will happen

If we vote to stay? Nothing will happen

No, us voting to leave is what they want. They will then **** us massively in the negotiations that we have to go through to leave, with the idea that we will get the willies and come crawling back to accept worse terms than we had before, we'll be forced into joining Schengen and the Euro.

Mark my words, Merkel is sharpening her swords. We can't be seen to leave and get away with it, lest some of the other potential flouncers get ideas.

http://www.politico.eu/article/france-plan-for-a-bloody-brexit-eu-referendum-consequences-europe-hollande-david-cameron/

People used to start wars over these kinds of squabbles. Part of me tells me we should just resort to doing what we do best in response, leaving the French Navy a wreck on the bottom of the sea.

teamhurtmore - Member

QT is a car crash tonight

Izzard is making Farrage look less deranged than normal. That's some achievement

Glad I missed it.

Sturgeon is very unpolular in England with those likley to vote Leave and with the middle ground (see her impact on the GE) so whilst I am sure she ismokaying to her Scottish audience I doubt overall she is helping the Referendum cause.

Really? Atgray is as staunch a no voter as there is,yet seems to have been impressed by her. Funny how you can mention her as being unpopular,yet ignore the shambles that is Farrage. That remark will come and bite your campaign,even if you ignore/agree/ with it.

Also Leave participants much more united

United against Johnny Foreigner - quite a proud achievement, eh?

Actually, after Brexit I will be OK, as will you, though it will be depressing to be reminded that I live in a country of morons. The ones that suffer will be the ones at the bottom end of the pile who lose their jobs and benefits when IDS and Patel come marching back into town. Part of me wants to say "f*** 'em - they voted for it, now they can enjoy their "control"

So, this morning's Farming today program on Radio 4 has DC claiming UK is the only country with access to 500M people, to whom UK farmers can sell their goods. I guess he must have [i]forgot[/i] to mention that Brussels is in the final stages of completing a trade agreement with the south American trading block which will inevitably put EU farmers under pressure. DC even mentioned British and Irish beef and lamb.

Perhaps Brussels plans an increase in the CAP to offset the inbalance.

Just goes to show, remainistas have absolutely no idea what's being loaded into the pipeline, at Brussels.
All we can say is the future won't be like the present, therefore voting to remain, so as to maintain the current status is ridiculous. Remain don't know what they are voting for. However after 40 years of EU, I can't say I'm impressed.
New Zealand butter, pre EU, anyone?......

I'm also intrigued by the 1975 generation who voted to enter the EU, most of them now want out. I guess after 40 years of it, they probably have a decent handle on why........

Of course, if remain do manage to swing it. They could very well risk Nigel becoming our next PM.
😯

Edit:
[i]DrJ - Member
United against Johnny Foreigner [/i]

Ah, yes, I almost forgot. Working late one evening earlier this week, I had the sureal experience of enduring a brief lecture from a Polish colleague who informed me:
"[i] the UK is shit. The UK is too Multi-Culti.[/i]"
I had no reply.

I'm fed up with the UK being let down by BBC "balance" & the unbridled print media bias.

The extreme views and clear mis-truths need to be challenged and dismissed, not reported in a balanced way. The same happened in the last General Election - broadcasters end up giving same airing to the parties on the fringe as the mainstream. I "get" the argument that it exposes their views to challenge, but the essentially BBC acted as UKIP's recruiting sergeant . The same is at risk of happening here with the outloons.

To cite the BBC's recent Douglas Adams quotes:

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

No, us voting to leave is what they want.

I very much doubt that. No party wants us to act like fools

They will then **** us massively in the negotiations that we have to go through to leave,

A slight exaggeration, but they are certainly not going to be negotiating in a positive frame of mind towards us.

with the idea that we will get the willies and come crawling back to accept worse terms than we had before, we'll be forced into joining Schengen and the Euro.

Well that's one thing that DEFINITELY won't be happening

Oi, duckie, I am not a Sturgeon fan, but despite the Salmon-esque head wobble and irritating delivery, she wiped the floor with the BSers. Ok may be not the legal lady in the middle, but the other two extremists 😉

Rkk, I kind of agree and got irritated during the Scottish referendum when he BBC would let yS BS go completely unchallenged and then find themselves accused of bias - yes, biased against truth and common sense.

But in practice very difficult to handle so better to ignore. Perhaps like flashing lights and other scenes, they could introduce a BSer by saying, "viewers might find the following lies and deceit upsetting" and had a helpline at the end for this affected but the exposure to BS....or a link to this thread!!!

Guardian coverage suggests it was a win for Leave with Remain making personal attacks

Source please as you are not great at dealing with data and I think you just misinterpreted what they said - deliberately?

I was following the Guardian's coverage and reactions last night. It seemed pretty even to me. Couldn't say one could distill it down to "Guardian coverage suggests it was a win for Leave". There were a few comments on Remain making a few personal digs at Boris - and to be honest, I don't know why anyone bothers. Anybody with the barefaced cheek to lie to the electorate in the way he does isn't going to be bothered by some personal digs. And indeed, he wasn't.

to be honest, I don't know why anyone bothers. Anybody with the barefaced cheek to lie to the electorate in the way he does isn't going to be bothered by some personal digs. And indeed, he wasn't.

Are you talking about Boris or Jamba?

I suppose the hope was that the masses would be entertained and in the process get it into their thick skulls that they were being lied to. A bit optimistic - there's a reason why Nigerian scammers are rich.

New Zealand butter, pre EU, anyone?

Where should we get our food from? I know, how about shipping it from the other side of the world! That's eco-friendly, isn't it?

deadlydarcy - Member
And with that last comment on QT: "...we are being diluted..."

Nice.

QT was a joke last night, izzard was basically a student bam. shut up eddie you're making a tit of yourself.

Izzard earlier.

[img] [/img]

Beast of Bolsover: Many people think Corbyn will vote Leave, if he was being true to his principles, his writings and his past parliamentary voting record he would.

Ironically same as Cameron.

molgrips - Member
...how about shipping it from the other side of the world! That's eco-friendly, isn't it?

according to some half-remembered made-up stats: shipped-in food gets more of it's CO2 footprint being delivered to the shop by lorry, than the floating-round-the-world part of the journey.

y'never know, it might even be true...

(i can easily push a 20tonne narrow boat around, not so much a 20tonne lorry)

I very much doubt that. No party wants us to act like fools

Another conspiracy theory of JHJ proportions - Labour are hoping Brexit win with the idea that the proles then get disappointed when the promised £350m doesn't show up and react by voting Labour in next time.

Of course this relies on JC being a cannier politician than he has shown himself to be, and on the proles for remembering anything beyond the last final of X Factor.

i can easily push a 20tonne narrow boat around

Bit easier to punt it but still bloody hard work

I agree the inertia is easier to overcome on water but the distance is also a bit further.

Interested to know if the claim is true.

@phillxx a number of those of us on the Leave side raised this months ago, its my personal view that Parliament will fudge the issue in the event its a vote to Leave. Cameron said on TV he would trigger Article 50 immediately (ie 2yr exit timetable) but I don't believe him. To ignore a democratic choice made in an explcit Referendum would jist be so typically EU. Remeber Norway voted not to join so the government signed up for pretty mich everything anyway.

So yes thats a fear of those of us who are voting Leave

DrJ as ong as you see vote Leave being against foreigners you cannot counter their arguments, you are doomed to failure. You must show how [b]uncontrolled[/b] immigration is positive for the economy, for working conditions and for wages and you have to demonstrate how we will provide schools and hospitals for the 300-400,000 extra people per anum.

Junky, what do you think the phrase Guardian coverage means ? Its not a trick question.

Dennis Skinner's comments are interesting as he notes there is only France which has a left wing government (and only just hanging on) and for Labour to believe the EU is going to protect workers rights is a mistake.

John Mann's piece today to explain why he's voting Leave and the reality that many Labour councellors and members will do the same

[i]On polling day they are going to get a big shock across the country.

They are going to get a big shock about how Labour councillors vote, they will get a big shock about how Labour members vote. And it shouldn’t come as a shock how many Labour voters will vote.

Mann says immigration is the key issue pushing him to Brexit:

I don’t want to live in a country with 80-90 million people living in it. I don’t want everything to be one big city. And the only way you can deal with that is by controlling borders.

And he says the remain campaign argument that the EU protects workers’ rights is a distortion:

Many Labour colleagues say we should stay to protect workers’ rights.

[b]But the poorest in society are the ones who have been hit by agency workers and zero hours contracts already. They are the ones who have been hit by labour flexibility with so many workers coming into the country[/b].[/i]

[i] molgrips - Member 
New Zealand butter, pre EU, anyone?Where should we get our food from? I know, how about shipping it from the other side of the world! That's eco-friendly, isn't it?[/i]

😆

You appear to have completely missed that point.
EU stopped UK importing NZ butter.
Got to fix the market to justify CAP and pricing.
😉

Yeah, agency regulation and zero hours contracts need a good shake up.. Dirty ****ing tory bastards

Absolutely nothing to do with immigration though.. And what is this mythical uncontrolled immigration that you are frightened of?

Are you scared of monsters under your bed too?

according to some half-remembered made-up stats: shipped-in food gets more of it's CO2 footprint being delivered to the shop by lorry, than the floating-round-the-world part of the journey.

Here is an article I found on that subject:

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-miles

Looking at the graph it seems that ship is 25x less CO2 PER KM than road (depending on details of how you pack it).

There were a few needless digs at Boris when they should have pressed him over the deregulation quote directly contradicting what he was saying. Ignore his obfuscation "I'll answer your question when you answer mine, Boris"

DrJ as ong as you see vote Leave being against foreigners you cannot counter their arguments, you are doomed to failure

Not really, as I'm not really interested in "countering" their arguments, just observing that 1) their choice of what to base their campaign on is racist in essence, and 2) it is anyway dishonest, since, to take an example, you now have Welsh voters supporting Brexit on the basis that the influx of Poles into Wales has stolen their jobs, regardless of the fact that the number of Polish immigrants in Wales is tiny, and what stole their jobs was the Tory govt voting against EU plans that would have supported Welsh industry. For example.

Vote Leave are liars, just as Nigerian scammers are liars. That doesn't mean they aren't successful - lots of mugs out there.

DrJ - Member

Here is an article I found on that subject:

much appreciated!

you now have Welsh voters supporting Brexit on the basis that the influx of Poles into Wales has stolen their jobs, regardless of the fact that the number of Polish immigrants in Wales is tiny

what do you think the phrase Guardian coverage means ? Its not a trick question.

Ok in that case guardian coverage says you are made of cheese.

Shall we just save time and agree you wont produce the source and agree its just your opinion [ not able to be backed up by proof]?

DrJ as ong as you see vote Leave being against foreigners you cannot counter their arguments, you are doomed to failure.

Xenophobes will be xenophobes - leave them to it, they cannot be reasoned with

You must show how uncontrolled immigration is positive for the economy, for working conditions and for wages and you have to demonstrate how we will provide schools and hospitals for the 300-400,000 extra people per anum.

On the contrary. It is easy to falsify the BS that

1. Immigration has been bad for the economy
2. That it is uncontrolled - higher than planned ok, but not "uncontrolled" (LIE) and not confined to EU
3. That it has any meaningful impact on wages
4. That it is the key issue facing schools or hospitals

That the BSers have to resort to this kind of xenophobic scaremongering simply illustrates the paucity of their argument - and their shameful deceit.

Of course, there is then the delicious irony of a bloke [b]rejected[/b] by the democratic process (part) fronting a campaign and spouting/shouting about democracy.

You appear to have completely missed that point.
EU stopped UK importing NZ butter.
Got to fix the market to justify

Utter bobbins
Last I checked, Anchor butter was still one of the most prominent brands in the local supermarket, and always plenty of NZ lamb...

I'd actually prefer my meat and dairy to be Welsh / Cornish / British anyway and tend to make those decisions when purchasing

Remeber Norway voted not to join so the government signed up for pretty mich everything anyway.

Wonder why? A conspiracy or an illustration of what actually happens in practice? Hmm, tough one that....

TMH you cannot lump all immigration in together (ie professionals to unemployed job-seekers) and use it to come to the conclusion uncontrolled immigration is good. That has no legitimacy. Nowhere else in the world has such a system as it makes no sense. Farage is an MEP, duely elected. He was the target of a massive "stop Farage" effort at the GE, however its only a matter of time before he wins a seat at Westminster

John Mann is making many very valid points. Look at the surge in UKIP votes in Labour strongholds in the North coming at the Labour Party's expense. Those are left wing voters reacting to their concerns about their future.

TMH you cannot lump all immigration in together

Very true!!

to come to the conclusion uncontrolled immigration is good.

We don't have uncontrolled immigration - there is no need to make things up.

John Mann is making many very valid points. Look at the surge in UKIP votes in Labour strongholds in the North coming at the Labour Party's expense. Those are left wing voters reacting to their concerns about their future.

They are misinformed, but as I said last night, this referendum has exposed the real xenophobia/racism that lies latent just below the surface in our society. VL have tapped into this very successfully as have UKIP and EDL in the past. Its not a pretty sight, despite it apparent success.

And here's a thing on lamb...

[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36481805 [/url]

Reckless comes across as a complete numpty - we want more free trade deals, open up our agricultural markets - but more direct support to our farmers???

Wont ever happen - even at the unfounded £350M pw lie level, it's not going to go far...

Farmers, NHS, no VAT on fuel...

Love the new look BS website. Depsite comments from ONS (whose figures they mis-quote, the IFS and the Electoral Commission aka "The Establishment" 😉 ......

Now in bright red - the lie about how much we spend followed by a flashing lie on where it could be spent and then irony of ironies the words

GET THE FACTS

They did make it up - shameful

POST TRUTH POLITICS in all its glory - they must be very proud

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/

[i]"Viewers are warned that the link contains harmful levels of BS and deceit"[/i] 😀

Has anyone considered the more esoteric implications?
If VL con enough wallies, I'm very fearful of the impact on smaller communities..
Xenophobic trouble makers are gonna feel mighty empowered and just as we saw the tiny vocal minority feel that their hate was becoming legitimised by UKIPS minor successes, so they will again feel that their hate has a place in society.. These people should not be given the confidence to air their shameful backwards fears

These idiots will be emboldened to preach more bile and I can see a rise in fascism rippling throughout the fabric of society..
Our fathers and grandfathers will be spinning in their graves

rkk01 - Member

Last I checked, Anchor butter was still one of the most prominent brands in the local supermarket

It's made in the UK. Not because of the EU but because Fonterra sold the brand to a UK dairy company.

They are misinformed, but as I said last night, this referendum has exposed the real xenophobia/racism that lies latent just below the surface in our society. VL have tapped into this very successfully as have UKIP and EDL in the past. Its not a pretty sight, despite it apparent success

Sadly very true...

I know many "ordinary" folks who are perfectly decent in every outward way, but after a few beers, or in private, express the most horrific anti "anything other than English" views...

It's [i]probably[/I] unfair to single out the English working classes in this, similar attitude exist in Wales (and probably elsewhere in the UK), but it does appear to be something quite characteristic of the English psyche

uncontrolled immigration is good. That has no legitimacy

you must not have any pants left by now dude.

You appear to have completely missed that point.
EU stopped UK importing NZ butter.
Got to fix the market to justify CAP and pricing.

a) really? and
b) are you saying butter from NZ is a good thing or not?