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THM, I wouldn't be so sure that they are going to only be mildly mean to us.
“Europe will also work without Britain if necessary,” Schäuble said. [b]“At some point, the British will realise they have taken the wrong decision. And then we will accept them back one day, if that’s what they want.”[/b]
I'm right mate, they're going to pour fuel on the pyre and then they will stand back and watch in glee.
Germany will be the big loser in that scneario, we are a massive market for their value added goods like cars. Freed of the EU shackles we can get proper compensation for buyers of defeat-device VW's too. If all the Deutsche Bank staff go back to Germany so be it.
If Germany want to play hardball we should get a PM and a Chancellor with some balls and declare Greece bankrupt and speak up publically and vote against any further IMF loans without massive debt relief. We should do all of that very loudly in good time for the 2017 German (and French) elections so that their citizens have a clear idea of the size of the gift of their money their governments have made.
THM, I wouldn't be so sure that they are going to only be mildly mean to us.
I'd say that being shot of Schauble and his ilk is the biggest reason I can see for voting Leave.
THM, I wouldn't be so sure that they are going to only be mildly mean to us.
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10/no-single-market-access-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says“Europe will also work without Britain if necessary,” Schäuble said. “At some point, the British will realise they have taken the wrong decision. And then we will accept them back one day, if that’s what they want.”
I'm right mate, they're going to pour fuel on the pyre and stand back to watch with glee.
So, putting in terms that the xenophobes and 50s/60s rose tinted brigade would understand:
[b]"We're going to let the Germans win the war"
Walk away from Europe, leave it to the Germans...
A collective Dunkirk, but without the spirit or intention to return [/b]
FFS, GET A GRIP
(NB: not my views - just trying to frame it using the UKIP / VL vernacular, terms of reference)
TBH, I thought the "German thing" and "we won the war" stuff that was still prevalent in my youth (70s-80s) had been all but eradicated over the last 20 yrs (well, since the election of Labour in 1997, which ushered in a more modern, moderate and tolerant tone)
We appear to be going backwards
[i]Actually, after Brexit I will be OK, as will you, though it will be depressing to be reminded that I live in a country of morons. The ones that suffer will be the ones at the bottom end of the pile who lose their jobs and benefits when IDS and Patel come marching back into town. Part of me wants to say "f*** 'em - they voted for it, now they can enjoy their "control" [/i]
+1
I also think the same way when the Tories get in, you voted (or didn't vote), accept the consequences.
Germany will be the big loser in that scneario, we are a massive market for their value added goods like cars.
yes we tarde 50% ish with them and the entire EU trade about 5% of us
Clearly they will be the big losers if the world is the same as Jambyplanet.
If Germany want to play hardball we should get a PM and a Chancellor with some balls and declare Greece bankrupt and speak up publically and vote against any further IMF loans without massive debt relief
OMFG even JHJ does not get this bad.
Hilarious though
its all about the Rose Tinted brigade as far as I can see
'Lets make Britain Great again' wtf??
so we are going to start a new empire?
or are we supposed to go back to pre EU 1970s Britain when we were the sick man of europe etc and ranked below all these countries by GDP
Monaco 12,096
United States 5,136
Bermuda 5,079
Qatar 4,929
Sweden 4,666
Luxembourg 4,487
United Arab Emirates 4,475
Liechtenstein 4,237
San Marino 4,171
Canada 4,093
Andorra 4,004
Switzerland 3,925
Kuwait 3,829
Flag of France.svg New Caledonia 3,602
Australia 3,497
Denmark 3,421
Flag of the Bahamas (1953-1964).svg Bahamas 3,356
Norway 3,353
Flag of the Netherlands.svg Aruba 2,990
Netherlands 2,906
France 2,862
Belgium 2,778
FRG & GDR 2,744
Iceland 2,598
Cayman Islands 2,578
Finland 2,467
French Polynesia 2,379
Nauru 2,364
United Kingdom 2,350
😆
Actually, after Brexit I will be OK, as will you, though it will be depressing to be reminded that I live in a country of morons. The ones that suffer will be the ones at the bottom end of the pile who lose their jobs and benefits when IDS and Patel come marching back into town. Part of me wants to say "f*** 'em - they voted for it, now they can enjoy their "control"
+1
Seems like turkey's voting for Christmas to me.
Personally worst case I see myself becoming a migrant, sorry ex-pat and moving to Scotland when they go independent and rejoin the EU; as I work more multinationals which benefit hugely from free movement of people and goods.
I find it interesting that anecdotal evidence of an inherent, barely concealed racism* at the heart of the English is fine when it suits your argument against the Leave campaign and it's supporters, but if you dared mention similar about some Scots and their attitude towards the English during the IndyRef everyone lost their minds.
Can anyone tell me why an immigration policy that lets anyone of any colour/creed/religion/race enter the country depending on their abilities/needs/lack of criminal record is more "racist" than one that favours a predominantly white, predominantly judeo-christian population regardless of their abilities/need/criminal record over people unlucky enough not to have been born in the EU?
*the term being used incorrectly, once again
[i]molgrips - Member
a) really? and
b) are you saying butter from NZ is a good thing or not?[/i]
Still claiming to miss the point. But you've played that game before, so no dice 😉
Rose tinted specs? Got to be better than an X-Wing pilot helmet with the blast shield down.
This is not the Europe you're voting for.
Use the farce.
😆
I find it interesting that anecdotal evidence of an inherent, barely concealed racism* at the heart of the English is fine when it suits your argument against the Leave campaign and it's supporters, but if you dared mention similar about some Scots and their attitude towards the English during the IndyRef everyone lost their minds.
Eh? Who are you talking to? Bit of a straw man there.
Can anyone tell me why an immigration policy that lets anyone of any colour/creed/religion/race enter the country depending on their abilities/needs/lack of criminal record is more "racist" than one that favours a predominantly white, predominantly judeo-christian population regardless of their abilities/need/criminal record over people unlucky enough not to have been born in the EU?
I think you're missing the point - there are probably legitimate concerns about immigration policy, and it's not racist to have concerns. What is deplorable is making those concerns your Number One focus for a campaign despite them actually having relatively little impact. Blaming foreigners for problems they didn't cause is racist. Whipping up racist responses in the electorate for your own personal political ambitions is just beyond description.
*the term being used incorrectly, once again
Nope.
Blaming foreigners for problems they didn't cause is racist.
No, it's xenophobic. Blaming Australian Aborigines or Indo-Chinese or Inuits for problems they didn't cause is racist.
Nope.
Yep.
If out, will we still be bound by EN standards - like for bike frames etc.
there are probably legitimate concerns about immigration policy, and it's not racist to have concerns
Finally. How come then, any time anyone raises those concerns, they're instantly drowned by a sea of voices all clamouring to be the one who shouts "YOU'RE RACIST" the loudest? There is literally no conversation to be had, because it is impossible.
Eh? Who are you talking to? Bit of a straw man there.
I know many "ordinary" folks who are perfectly decent in every outward way, but after a few beers, or in private, express the most horrific anti "anything other than English" views...
It was an observation, not an argument; straw man or otherwise.
literally
Nope.
[i] The Flying Ox - Member
Finally. How come then, any time anyone raises those concerns, they're instantly drowned by a sea of voices all clamouring to be the one who shouts "YOU'RE RACIST" the loudest? There is literally no conversation to be had, because it is impossible[/i]
That's how some folk think they win. By shouting down others.
When's the next "hate" minute scheduled for?
Still claiming to miss the point. But you've played that game before, so no dice
I don't play games. It's a detestable practice. I genuinely just want to know what you meant. It wasn't clear to me.
If out, will we still be bound by EN standards - like for bike frames etc.
No the chinese will just build the good stuff for Europe and send us any old shit.
[i] philxx1975 - Member
No the chinese will just build the good stuff for Europe and send us any old shit[/i]
😆
That's how some folk think they win. By shouting down others.
And some people bore people to death with winks and smileys.
[i] deadlydarcy - Member
.And some people bore people to death with winks and smileys[/i]
😆
Solo - MemberThat's how some folk think they win. By shouting down others.
Aye, just keep shouting £350 MILLION over and over and you can drown out all the voices telling everyone it's a laughably transparent lie. Especially if you put it on a leaflet with FACTS written on it.
On One/Planet X ahead of the curve again then?philxx1975 - Member
If out, will we still be bound by EN standards - like for bike frames etc.
No the chinese will just build the good stuff for Europe and send us any old shit.
I'm not sure whether to ask the question here, or to start a new thread, but I have a (hopefully) simple question that I would like some clarification on:
I've often heard that the EU is not democratic. Can someone explain in simple, reasonably objective terms why that is the case? I was under the impression that we vote for our leaders, and they in turn vote on who represents them/us in the EU. Is this not the case? Are there leaders in the EU who are not elected by a voting system.
This is a genuine question - please don't judge yet just yet!
Aye, just keep shouting £350 MILLION over and over and you can drown out all the voices telling everyone it's a laughably transparent lie. Especially if you put it on a leaflet with FACTS written on it.
Agreed, pretty far from the truth, but it's emotive nonsense designed to appeal to the hard-of-thinking. Much the same as claiming a vote to leave would be like placing a bomb under our economy, or add £220 to the weekly food shop, or bring about World War 3 and the return of "the troubles" in Ireland.
Politics 101. You take a grain of truth and distort & misrepresent it as much as you can until you have a headline-grabbing harbinger of doom to scare the plebs into obedience. Contemptible, most definitely, but it's not like either camp is going to come out of this squeaky clean is it?
[i]Agreed, pretty far from the truth, but it's emotive nonsense designed to appeal to the hard-of-thinking[/i]
Yep, and I heard the very same this morning in the office "I'm voting out so they can spend the money on the NHS instead".
Man in his late 50's, very blue collar (although white collar job), never lived outside of the region (from a town where one of the sayings is "a day out of Hawick is a day wasted"), thinks foreigners can just 'turn up', never had a passport... etc etc
Fit anyones stereotype? 😉
I've often heard that the EU is not democratic. Can someone explain in simple, reasonably objective terms why that is the case? I was under the impression that we vote for our leaders, and they in turn vote on who represents them/us in the EU. Is this not the case? Are there leaders in the EU who are not elected by a voting system
As I understand it there are 2 law making bodies in the EU
the Parliament made up of the MEPs we vote for (assuming they bother to turn up [cough] UKIP [cough])
the Commission who we dont vote for*, these are the civil servants that do the actual legwork for putting the laws in place
*the commission is appointed to by the council of ministers: every nation takes turns at heading this and appointing people to it
and the European Council, which is made up of all the heads of each country.
which all sounds a lot fairer than the House of Lords which comprises, Lords spirtual (there coz they believe in God), life peers (mostly rich old party donors who are rewarded for funding the party of their choice by being made an MP), herditary peers (better than the rest of us by birth)
or bring about World War 3
As a matter of interest, can you give a source for anyone actually saying that? Or is it just more made up BS ?
Not aure if this has been discussed yet and with 108 pages to wade through, it's very possible.
Assuming that the great British public vote "OUT!" then is that actually legally binding? I've heard mention that even if the result is out then it will go to parliament for discussion and could be overturned. Anyone know if there is any truth in this?
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10/no-single-market-access-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says ]No single market acces[/url]
Not buying this for one second - it seems talking cobblers isn't just limited to our own politicians, the Germans want a piece of the action.
Does Schauble seriously think should the UK vote for Brexit the EU is just going to close the door on the UK?
I know I've been shooting down the cobblers spouted by the BS'rs but this little gem needs bringing down too!
edit: I wonder if he's trying a bit of reverse psychology? It'll probably work...
Does Schauble seriously think should the UK vote for Brexit the EU is just going to close the door on the UK?
Of course they are if you withdraw from the club you withdraw from the club.
the other point is if you are in the ETA then you still have to comply and pay so the only sense in which we will have withdrawn is from participating in any decision making process of the rules we need to STILL comply with and neither side will want that
You are a member of a cycling club
You join and pay your subs and you have to ride a certain bike and wear certain kit. you decide to leave, ride another bike and wear different kit...you think you can still turn up for club rides? Nope but you can still use the same roads but without the slipstream you will just be hindered and slower
Junki, whichever way you skin it there is NO way the EU will completely turn it's back on the UK, nor refuse a renegotiated entry IF it's in the EU's best interest.
I understand your example of a cycling club but that's a little over simplified don't you think?
The EU needs our trade as much as we need theirs - it's in nobodies interest to act spitefully.
As a matter of interest, can you give a source for anyone actually saying that?
"Whenever we turn our back on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it. We have always had to go back in, and always at much higher cost," he will say."The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.
"Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash as to make that assumption."
What do you think CMD was hinting at here? Or is it BS because CMD didn't specifically utter the words "a UK exit will lead to WW3"? Is it that now only definitive quotes mean anything? In which case all the "possibility of", "could", "might" economic doom rhetoric from Remain seems to be a bit toothless.
The EU needs our trade as much as we need theirs - it's in nobodies interest to act spitefully.
unless the EU are worried about other countries leaving following a Brexit and need to send a warning
seeing as this entire referendum is about cutting off your noise to spite your face....
I've often heard that the EU is not democratic. Can someone explain in simple, reasonably objective terms why that is the case? I was under the impression that we vote for our leaders, and they in turn vote on who represents them/us in the EU. Is this not the case? Are there leaders in the EU who are not elected by a voting system
3 areas
1, MEPS - voted for by each country representation based on population
2. The commissioners and President -
a) President - agreed on/selected by Council of Ministers and parliament can veto the choice and censure once in power
b) Commissioners - each country picks one commissioner - ie our PM does this as does each other head of state - President selects policy area and the entire commision is then approved or not approved by the MEPS- the reality if this process is that unpopular choices are "de selected" before this vote happens.
Commissioners, under the guidance of the president propose laws to the MEPS who must pass them
3. Council of ministers - heads of state of each country - however for a financial matter it may be chancellor or foreign affairs the foreign secretary etc
For a law to be passed both MEPS and the council must approve
Some council votes are simple majority - one state one vote - some areas countries have a veto
Its a complicated form of democracy but there are no positions where there is not some democratic oversight/ the person can be voted out unlike our head of state or house of lords
the not democratic attack is weak IMHO given we have folk there due to birthright or due to being in the correct church. They have nothing that undemocratic
So what happens with European sporting events like Footy should we leave?
Funny if England win the Euro cup then leave.
unless the EU are worried about other countries leaving following a Brexit and need to send a warningseeing as this entire referendum is about cutting off your noise to spite your face....
Quite possibly that!
whichever way you skin it there is NO way the EU will completely turn it's back on the UK, nor refuse a renegotiated entry IF it's in the EU's best interest.
THe EU best interest may be to see us go absolutely tits up , fail horribly and squander so as to deter others from leaving and hope we come back. Either way they ar ein the best position to play hardball not us as the maths is on their side
Does this mean you cannot think of a way of countering but of course its oversimplified that was the pointI understand your example of a cycling club but that's a little over simplified don't you think?
The EU needs our trade as much as we need theirs - it's in nobodies interest to act spitefully.
50% ish of ours 5% of there's so absolutely they do not need us as much as we need theirs
If all trade stopped - it wont- we would be dead in the water where as they will be badly hurt.
As for spite its about self interest at that point and what is this and what is spite depends on which side you sit on
Its "spiteful" of the cycling club to not let you ride if you wish to see it like that.
So what happens with European sporting events like Footy should we leave?
Different organisations and nothing we can do will change our location on the globe
What do you think CMD was hinting at here?
I'll take that as a "no", then.
Does this mean you cannot think of a way of countering but of course its oversimplified that was the point
No need to counter - I see your point but the EU is far more subtle & nuanced than any club. Some will want us to stay, some will want us to leave. Some will have more power to affect their will than others.
The main difference being is that one involves millions of people & billions of €, so the considerations that go along with making the choices over who leaves & who stays SHOULD be a lot more involving/in depth than whether or not you can go on a club ride where there may only 100 people & a few £ to be considered.
Thats what I meant when I hinted at not being able to compare the 2 & over simplified.
FYI JY, I am neither IN or OUT & I can spot a lie a mile off..
Its bigger but that is all bit it still has club rules and we comply or we leave. That is it
Some seem to think we can vote to leave and then somehow negotiate a better deal - like free access without paying or complying- Look what happens when Switzerland tried to drop free movement for example*
It won't happen and the EU have said so - some then call this stating the obvious "bullying"
I agree the EU dont want us to leave but when we do they wont be interested in helping us either.
* the eu said it was all or nothing and refused to discuss it
Some seem to think we can vote to leave and then somehow negotiate a better deal
As appealing a scenario that is.....I can't help but think in that instance we'd get screwed!