[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

That would be nice, but we'll probably just get a load of wishy-washy nothingness from both sides, much like the Scottish indy campaigns.

DrJ instead of bullying others at least visit Google and see who is exposed to risk due to Greece

Have a look in your wallet. Well... maybe not yours. We all know you don't carry cash. But if you look at the currency, you'll notice that it isn't the euro

DrJ instead of bullying others at least visit Google and see who is exposed to risk due to Greece.

Hora - please read what I wrote. Not one penny of Slovak tax payers money has been sent to Greece. If stating fact is "bullying" then so be it.

IDS playing a spurious terror card - what a crock

The quality will probable only o down from here too... 🙁

mikewsmith - Member
To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?

On leaving the UK will not have automatic trade agreements.
It will have to comply with all the same EU rules to trade with the EU but have no say.

The people who currently do the jobs a large amount of Brits feel too good to do will have to leave.

All those cheap bike bits from the EU will have Import Duty slapped on them.

Movement in the EU will become harder for British National

🙄

edit: I bet most people on this forum has long decided "IN" or "OUT" so the debate here on STW is merely propaganda vs counter propaganda for the mind of the indecisive or the ignorant and naïve.

I certainly make up my mind long time ago coz I see them coming ... 😛

To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?

The quality will probable only o down from here too...

Its strange how these debates pan out.

It will be interesting when :
Spain starts deporting all our pensioners who are sponging off their state
We start paying higher airfares in Europe.
Our chalet staff are all locals as the English aren't given work permits.
No English MTB guides in Europe.

Sorry, just some of the arguments to trot out.

andyfla - Member

It will be interesting when :
Spain starts deporting all our pensioners who are sponging off their state
We start paying higher airfares in Europe.
Our chalet staff are all locals as the English aren't given work permits.
No English MTB guides in Europe.

Sorry, just some of the arguments to trot out.

If they want to deport them I see no reason why you should worry or stop them if they are considered as spongers.

Higher airfares you say? Try travelling to the Far East and I can assure you my ticket is much more expensive then you lot traveling in Europe. Stop whinging.

Work in BritLand rather than their chalet.

English MTB guide in Europe? Why English/Brits? Can't you use sign language etc? I much prefer their local MTB guide.

Our chalet staff are all locals as the[s] English[/s]british aren't given work permits.
No [s]English [/s] british MTB guides in Europe.

FTFY

IDS playing a spurious terror card - what a crock

Well, CMD has been happy enough to use that well-thumbed card against Corbyn, so he cant really complain.

What is now absolutely getting right on my tits is the whole pathetic press obsession with the Boris Johnson in/out shake it all about bollocks. Seriously.... who ****ing cares?! Is he the only person being given a vote?

Boris is like a needy attention-seeking teenager. He's not ruminating over the future of the UK in or out of the EU, he's trying to work out which position will best further his ambitions as a future leader of the Tories. Are these people seriously thinking it's about anything other than that. The only thing Boris cares about is Boris. I'm genuinely mystified as to anyone being fooled by his amiable buffoon shtick any more. If anyone can't see through it to the ruthless ambition and terminal narcissism, they really are morons!

I'm complaining not Dave.

Difficult movement? I mean even all me mates with non-EU passports can travel freely in EU without much hassle so what is your problem?

Standard visa to UK costs £85 and lasts up to 6 months? If true, my visa costs would have been pretty big over the last 5 years as I have family in the EU who visit regularly. In some cases, those visits were over 6 months and could be a hassle to sort out. Not sure in cases of ill health etc. how easy it is to sort out quickly.

Try travelling to the Far East and I can assure you my ticket is much more expensive then you lot traveling in Europe.

The far east is further away, hence why it's more expensive. Europe will not be moving further away, but will be getting more expensive. Do you see?

Standard visa to UK costs £85 and lasts up to 6 months? If true, my visa costs would have been pretty big over the last 5 years as I have family in the EU who visit regularly. In some cases, those visits were over 6 months and could be a hassle to sort out. Not sure in cases of ill health etc. how easy it is to sort out quickly.

If we can visit the USA and Canada without the need for a visa, and they us, then I am sure we can arrange a reciprocal agreement with Europe... Like we had before.

RichPenny - Member

Difficult movement? I mean even all me mates with non-EU passports can travel freely in EU without much hassle so what is your problem?

Standard visa to UK costs £85 and lasts up to 6 months? If true, my visa costs would have been pretty big over the last 5 years as I have family in the EU who visit regularly. In some cases, those visits were over 6 months and could be a hassle to sort out. Not sure in cases of ill health etc. how easy it is to sort out quickly.

Choices:

1. Move to UK.
2. Move to EU.
3. £85 per pop - £170/yr - If you don't have that kind of money you are not meant to live in UK or EU.
4. Regularly go for health check.

If a 3rd world person can manage to deal with all that why can't you? Are you from the 3rd world? If not yours are not a concern.

RichPenny - Member

Try travelling to the Far East and I can assure you my ticket is much more expensive then you lot traveling in Europe.

The far east is further away, hence why it's more expensive. Europe will not be moving further away, but will be getting more expensive. Do you see?

Choices:

1. Travel less to EU.
2. Travel more to the far east (could even be cheaper cost per mile comparison in future).
3. Don't travel.
4. Travel locally.

...to me in Wales the EU is that bit more independence from the Westminster gov't and something we benefit from as a certainty and as such I can't see any reason why I would want to vote to leave.

Agree with this but Wales will remain completely invisible during the whole process. Saw it this morning on the Marr show - Sturgeon, Farage and Cameron.

ninfan - Member

If we can visit the USA and Canada without the need for a visa, and they us, then I am sure we can arrange a reciprocal agreement with Europe... Like we had before.

With this government, with its commitment to reducing immigration, its demands for tighter border controls, and a proven track record of using spiralling visa costs and difficulty to deter even those immigrants who make the biggest positive contribition?

Chewy, Choice 5, the status quo of free travel, is preferable to all of those thanks.

RichPenny - Member
Chewy, Choice 5, the status quo of free travel, is preferable to all of those thanks.

No such thing as free things in this world I am afraid coz someone got to pay for it ...

With this government, with its commitment to reducing immigration, its demands for tighter border controls, and a proven track record of using spiralling visa costs and difficulty to deter even those immigrants

Sorry, I thought we would have a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn very soon, so obviously none of those problems would apply (no problem with Gibraltar either, as Jezza wants to hand it back to Spain)

Laura K at the BBC reporting Boris will campaign for Leave, thats a massive boost for us 😀

Hugely popular, high profile politician whomhas charisma and is a formidable speaker. @binners, if true its huge news for the Leave campaign. Boris can amd will convert wavering voters and bring large numbers if Tories into the Leave camp.

Visa. There will absolitely NOT be visa requirements to visit other EU countries post a Leave vote. It will be business as usual with free movement with our passports just like it is now. What will disapear is the automatic right to love and work in an EU country. That will require a visa

Cheap bike bits from Europe ? They all come from Asia anyway. The German online sites are cheaper as they have some kind of VAT avoiding wheeze.

Laura K at the BBC reporting Boris will campaign for Leave, thats a massive boost for us

It will be business as usual with free movement with our passports just like it is now

@JY Passport checks can turn up criminals, the US ones do. Good news is we will be deporting convicted criminals upon release as we won't be bound by the ECJ.

It will be interesting when :
Spain starts deporting all our pensioners who are sponging off their state
We start paying higher airfares in Europe.
Our chalet staff are all locals as the English aren't given work permits.
No English MTB guides in Europe.

Sorry, just some of the arguments to trot out.

@andy Sunday Politics had some every intereting interviews inc with Chris Grayling, he referenced the airfares explicitly. BTW there are many budget carriers in Asia, cheaper than here actually. No reason airfares should rise.

@Klunk and DrJ the Slovakian Finance Minister has repeatedly said the Slovak people do not support the support payments they have been obliged to make to Greece. If he says they made payments that alone is good enough for me. The EU has borrowed money a portion of which is guaranteed but he Slovak state/tax payers and paid that to Greece.

By the way we, the UK, are tied into the EU support mechanism even though we are not in the euro. Unfortunately the Greeks are going to default before we can get out of the EU. Dogs breakfast.

@JY Passport checks can turn up criminals, the US ones do

No shit, you dont say

So its not free movement then after all its movement with a passport allowing entry if we like the cut of your jib and no entry if we dont.
You are now in the position of agreeing with the evidence that counters your stated view
I am sure there is some jamby way you are still right that just involves not thinking, ignoring facts and just brazening it out.

If he says they made payments that alone is good enough for me

Another point excellently well made

Ha ha love it, colleagues at Vote Leave have been quick off the mark and left a brolly and hat outside Boris's house 🙂

[url= http://twitter.com/ChrisGibsonNews/status/701430752404230145/photo/1 ]link[/url]

@Klunk and DrJ the Slovakian Finance Minister has repeatedly said the Slovak people do not support the support payments they have been obliged to make to Greece. If he says they made payments that alone is good enough for me.

Laughable.

So its not free movement then after all its movement with a passport allowing entry if we like the cut of your jib and no entry if we dont.

So, we would be able to refuse entry to convicted paedophiles, murderers and rapists from the EU, like we can with those from other parts of the world (Arnis Zalkalns allowed in the country, Mike Tyson refused)

And you think that's a bad thing?

Laura K at the BBC reporting Boris will campaign for Leave, thats a massive boost for us
Hugely popular, high profile politician whomhas charisma and is a formidable speaker.

Or a mop-headed, self-aggrandising, totally untrustworthy cockwomble, depending on how gullible you are

formidable speaker

Does mumbling, hesitating, obfuscating and generally talking unintelligible bollox count as being a good public speaker these days?

Binners I'm an eccentric filthy rich Marquis. I'm actually the Marquis of Saint Retford 8)

I'm going to do the opposite of 'call me Dave'.

Out!

Good news is we will be deporting convicted criminals upon release as we won't be bound by the ECJ.

FFS more kipper b0ll0cks, the ECJ IS NOTHING to do with the EU!!!!!

If you want to take part in the debate know the learn the f***ing situation before spouting s**t

If we vote to leave then the next election will be Boris v JC. 😆

With Trump as US president...

@Mrmo - Er, yes it is, it's the ECHR that is nothing to do with the EU... 😳

5thElefant - Member
If we vote to leave then the next election will be Boris v JC.

Crikey not those two. They are both clowns are they not? 😯

Isn't the EU protecting our human rights from the fiendish things parliment want to do to it's voters 🙁

As for free travel abroad, well that depends on race 🙁

Isn't the EU protecting our human rights from the fiendish things parliment want to do to it's voters

So, we would be able to refuse entry to convicted paedophiles, murderers and rapists from the EU, like we can with those from other parts of the world (Arnis Zalkalns allowed in the country, Mike Tyson refused)

And you think that's a bad thing?

whether it is good or bad is a different debate from if things will change

Thanks for agreeing with me in your own personal way 😉

Cheap airlines was one of the things the Eu gave us - along with cheap roaming on mobiles

No idea if I am in or out, just wish a bit more than bloody immigration was being discussed.

Listened to Boris' claptrap on the drive back from a ride this afternoon.

Naked opportunism - Ossie and May v Gove and Bojo or Bogoff now when Dave leaves for the gravy train.

So he outlines what he wants - and in so doing largely described the status quo - and then pretends that we have do do something silly to get it. Sadly, a lot will swallow this stuff.

What a depressing saga this is going to be - at least it will be relatively short.

Good news is we will be deporting convicted criminals upon release as we won't be bound by the ECJ.

Out.

@andy - how did the EU give us budget airlines, and if so how did Asia get them then ?

@Klunk it really is my pleasure. It's the ECJ precedent on the EU HR bill which means we cannot deport people due to spurious defences like the right to a family life.

@tmh reports are that more than 50% of Tory MPs will vote leave, even more naked opportunism ? EU have turned down request after request from us for change, wouldn't even discuss freedom of movement, appointed Junker against our wishes. Time for them to get the message that they had a chance to reform and keep us in the EU but they blew it.

Out.

Piece on funding today. Election commission will determine official campaigns who will get £600,000. Max spend is £7m. Somewhat bizarrely the political parties also get funds, not sure how that ties with max campaign spend

Tories £7m
Labour £5.5m
UKIP £4m
Lib Dems £3m
SNP/UDP/others £500,000 (ish)

So Boris has come out, so to speak

If he thought for just one second that his leadership ambitions would be better served by saying the exact opposite, he'd be saying the exact opposite.

If you attach any more credibility than that to the drivel we'll have to listen to him spouting for the next 4 months, then you probably need to have a serious word with yourself

Alternatively, you could contact me directly about some investment opportunities I have available through my Nigerian uncle. A former government minister who needs some help getting his many millions out of the country. You will be handsomely rewarded for your part in this enterprise...

I'm IN.

As yet, the OUT campaign have yet to come up with a plan to exactly how they are going to mange Brexit.

Sorry, but I need fact not ideology, p1ss, wind & BS.

That goes for BOTH sides.

@binners Boris will convert undecided voters, he can't bring back the dead 🙂

This Vote leave website made me chuckle, quite a lot actually [url= http://www.voteleave.org ]VoteLeave.org[/url]

@tmh reports are that more than 50% of Tory MPs will vote leave, even more naked opportunism ?

You're familar with the whole concept of a referendum, right? Their opinion is as important as Hora's

@binners Boris will convert undecided voters

Indeed. It illustrates perfectly how politicians and the media in their South Eastern bubble loftily treat opinion in the rest of the country with casual contempt. As a poster boy, I know that down there you all think he's simply super, and oh so frightfully amusing.

Up in this part of the world he's about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit. Like I said... You have grasped the concept that we all get a vote, right? Those in the home counties don't get two or three each

Sorry, but I need fact not ideology, p1ss, wind & BS.

we will all feel like we've been living in a sewer by the end of June.

@andy - how did the EU give us budget airlines, and if so how did Asia get them then ?

As for Asia, I haven't a clue how they did theirs, but I remember going to the south of france back in the 70's and 80's and it was about £120 then and only BA and air france were allowed on that route. Since then it has gotten waaay cheaper to fly anywhere in Europe.

Same with the mobile data stuff at the moment, it will only effect prices in Europe, so their legislation wont make calls or internet cheaper in China ! sorry 🙁

Nipper99 - Member

yes, £500 million pa in Wales.

A fortnights subs will cover that... 🙂

Jambas - are the immigration red herring 😉 so why didnt Dave make a bigger issue of this? Errr, we have an opt out of Shengen and look at the numbers that we take in. It's frankly a disgrace.

Then, look a current migration patterns - so the big section being the Poles. 98% come to [b]work or study [/b] and make a positive contribution, A massive, wait for it, 2, yes TWO percent are on benefits. How awful - this tsunami of folk making a positive co tribute on to the econom! Whatever next....

Like you I have had the opportunity to live and work in France, my son has studied there for a year (and like his peers is strong IN) and remember there are more Brits living in the UK (largely Spain - how economically active are they ? - and Ireland) that EU citizens living in UK (Poles above being the biggest)

I wasn't going to bother contributing to this thread, as I've always been against the EU but thought it was academic really as I presumed we would stay in.
But now Boris Johnson has set his stall out there is a real possibility we will leave.
It will come down to the wire.

I don''t think deregulation was purely as a result of the EU (kind of my point with Asia, they introduced budget airlines by deregulating routes). Its my strongly held belief its not going to change post a leave. As Grayling said it's in the interest of all these airports / holiday regions to encourage cheap flights. The UK sadly demonstrated that air travel is quite inelastic by introducing Air Passenger Duty (Labour I beleive in 2008 ?), we still fly more than we used to.

The mobile costs I will agree with you on, that was something driven EU wide. However, again I cannot see it being reversed in the event of a leave.

Touche @binners 🙂

A massive, wait for it, 2, yes TWO percent are on benefits.

It's a culture! a something for nothing culture (so said the coke head on the radio this morning)

THM - can I just say that i'm finding being in complete agreement with you a deeply disorientating experience!

Poles are a good example. 10 years ago they didn't really feature in the census now they are 1m plus and the largest or second largest nationality group in the UK. With controlled immigration we could take the best person for the job no matter what race, creed or colour. Do we really believe its always the EU citizen who's best for the job ? Also as for contributing that's a tough analysis - someone making - say - £15k pa isn;t putting that much in and are they taking a job which should go to an unemployed person ? All those zero hour contract bods at Sports Direct, is that really adding anything ?

You state 2% are on benefits, you are forgetting all the in work stuff like tax credits and child allowance. There where some stats published recently which showed the average claim from an EU person was something like £6k pa with 40% claiming (all this from hazy memory)

Relax binners - wisdom come to us all in the end! 😉

Low cost airlines (as anyone who has done an MBA knows) started with South West Airlines taking on Braniff in N America. Taught in marketing courses all round the world - great example of understanding your target market segment!

It's also going to be interesting to see how much enthusiasm Gove has for campaigning when he stands back and takes a long hard look at his new 'allies'

YOu two always have a love in over Europe You like to moan about it. like the errant child who wont do what the parents wanted it to when it grew up, but deep down you both love it 😉

I am also largely in agreement with you both as well

The EU is not perfect but the out is little more than sabre rattling as the choice of supporters largely shows.

@binners that's the difference between Vote Leave and Grass Roots out. There is a reason I joined Vote Leave and not GO

THM - can I just say that i'm finding being in complete agreement with you a deeply disorientating experience!

Jammers - They're all on the same side. You think that given the no doubt hysterical nature of the campaign to leave, that people are going to notice any difference? Or indeed, if there will actually be any difference

Straight banana anyone?

Do we really believe its always the EU citizen who's best for the job ?

Also as for contributing that's a tough analysis

but that's funding that not dependent on the f***wits in Westminster of whatever ilk.

I have to say I am in a thoroughly good mood today. The campaigns haven't really started but it's been a very good few days for Vote Leave.

Apologies for three posts in a row - mind you with proper forum software hey'd be joined together automatically

Not 100% on this, but as the UK is not a member of Schengen we have complete control over our borders, don't we? Immigration not a problem.
Free movement of workers for EU residents might be a different kettle of fish.

strictly speaking he was agreeing with me

It was a glorious time.

teamhurtmore - Member

Like you I have had the opportunity to live and work in France, my son has studied there for a year

My missus has had the opportunity to live and work outside the EU, and has studied outside the EU.
It really isn't that difficult. 💡

we know but its lesser than the right to do something which is what we have currently

I suppose being privy to my partner's experiences and having worked in an industry where we did huge amounts of trade with non-EU countries, EU membership just doesn't seem to offer very good value for money.

One thing I haven't seen clarified - what, exactly, are we voting to leave? Just the EU? The EEA as well? EFTA? ECHR?

Because if it's only the EU, that's not going to affect things like migration from Europe, is it? That's covered by the EEA.

(Apologies, I did try looking to see if this has already been covered, but gave up)

My missus has had the opportunity to live and work outside the EU, and has studied outside the EU.
It really isn't that difficult.

It bloody well is. You had an opportunity handed on a plate. If you haven't got that, it's pretty tough.

Not 100% on this, but as the UK is not a member of Schengen we have complete control over our borders, don't we? Immigration not a problem.
Free movement of workers for EU residents might be a different kettle of fish.

Yes we do. However there is one chink in the armour so to speak, what about the common border we share with ROI? At present theres no issue but should we vote to leave thats going to be a massive headache.

Thats the thing with this, it has massive implications for more than just the SE. Is that another keg we fancy lighting back up if we have to turn it into a proper manned border with the associated bad feeling attached?

As someone else commented earlier it would be nice to hear the opinions of more than just the English and Scots on this (though I dare say NI and Wales will fail to surprise)

@Klunk it really is my pleasure. It's the ECJ precedent on the EU HR bill which means we cannot deport people due to spurious defences like the right to a family life.

what about the common border we share with ROI? At present theres no issue but should we vote to leave thats going to be a massive headache.

Edit: I was partially wrong. It looks like border controls can be established and although there was no immigration control cbange because of the EU, customs control was dropped.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

@Mrmo - Er, yes it is, it's the ECHR that is nothing to do with the EU...

@ninfan, misread the point the kipper was making, not deporting criminals etc is ECHR not ECJ. i.e., nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with Winston Churchill.....